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  1. #41
    Mechagnome sunxsera's Avatar
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    A good raidleader makes the biggest difference.

  2. #42
    All the roles are important, but a really good tank will be the most noticeable.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    this is somewhat of a wrong analysis and a reverse of the case,its not the fact that one good healer can contribuit to a better raidgroup health state,its usualy the dps ability to prevent the dmg that allows you to cut healers
    depends on what level you raid at.

    my personal experience is that when we had top 100 guild dps players play with us, they weren't really that distinguishable from our own best players. the biggest thing they brought was experience, not mechanic skill or numbers. on the other hand on 3 healer fights, it's very noticeable when we bring a weaker healer.

    what you say is definitely true if ALL your dps is at that level, but if you can only swap 1 player around, you average mythic guild is going to get more mileage out of a better healer than out of a better dps.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    depends on what level you raid at.

    my personal experience is that when we had top 100 guild dps players play with us, they weren't really that distinguishable from our own best players. the biggest thing they brought was experience, not mechanic skill or numbers. on the other hand on 3 healer fights, it's very noticeable when we bring a weaker healer.

    what you say is definitely true if ALL your dps is at that level, but if you can only swap 1 player around, you average mythic guild is going to get more mileage out of a better healer than out of a better dps.
    it depends on the type of the fight,if it allows for the dps to be smart and not lose dps at the same time,its usualy comes down to pure math

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    All the roles are important, but a really good tank will be the most noticeable.
    nah, not anymore. back when they simplified how boss parries work the majority of awareness/positional skill for tanks went out the window. and any survivability concerns are more a matter of class than player skill nowadays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    it depends on the type of the fight,if it allows for the dps to be smart and not lose dps at the same time,its usualy comes down to pure math
    no dps is going to do 2 average players worth of dps by doing that.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    nah, not anymore. back when they simplified how boss parries work the majority of awareness/positional skill for tanks went out the window. and any survivability concerns are more a matter of class than player skill nowadays.

    - - - Updated - - -



    no dps is going to do 2 average players worth of dps by doing that.
    well they dont have to,but it can end up being the factor whether or not you bring in an extra healer

  7. #47
    First step is a well coordinated raid lead that i very important. With a bad one the raids won't be succesful.

    The tanks are something that can fuck up a whole raid in certain situations. I remember Nighthold, first day of Mythic in Legion and on Skorpyron. One hell of a nice 2% wipe because of the tank moving so bad that the raid got cleaved dead. As aggro ist not that much of a problem in most situations this is no longer important at all.
    The other thing is the right use of active migation to help the healers, which leads to them directly.

    When the raid overall is good and makes no mistakes you barely use healers, that's why there were so many world firsts with sometimes only one or two healer. There were few situations where you needed more healers, I remember Gurtogg Bloodboil in BT where a lot of guilds used up to 10 healers until the gear became better.

    An then the damage dealer. If they do the damage they should do and don't fail they have the biggest impact. The playerbase decides if you need more healer, more DPS, if you fail enrage timers etc.

  8. #48
    The tank, through errors at critical times or overall poor play, can sink the attempt. If the tank plays badly in general they can cause many, many wipes by their actions alone slowing down progress.

    However past a certain skill level the tank just has to be "good enough" and improvements in the tank's abilities provide only minor improvements in most encounters.

    An extremely good healer is worth more proportionally to the raid than most other roles and has a higher skill cap. Since one healer is between 20-50% of the overall healing output an excellent one has a much larger influence on the performance of the raid. The healer's actions can also potentially preserve the raid's effective DPS for much longer making them more important than any single DPS.

    Collectively, many high performance DPS make a massive difference to the raid performance. However that influence is only felt as a group. A single one cannot have the kind of massive influence on the raid performance like a single healer can. One great DPS and a bunch of bad players won't make a difference. Several awesome DPS will make a big difference.

    Personally I think in-game raid leaders are only useful for morale reasons and not so much for coordination reasons. Coordination is best done as part of a plan and not on the fly. A configured boss mod / WA setup does the moment to moment direction for you and raid leader callouts apart from things that must be called out are sort of irrelevant once you get experienced enough.

  9. #49
    As far as tanks, I think its tough to find a tank with the right personality and communication abilities.

    As far as who makes the biggest impact ? Healers.

    Yeah, dps kills the boss, but a good healer can often do the work of two, and give you a spot for a whole 'nother dps. A good tank still generally needs an offtank due to fight design.

  10. #50
    Herald of the Titans Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    Tank is the least important.
    Healers have to heal failers who can't dodge mechanics and big damage abilities which are on the clock.
    DPS are those who actually kill the bosses and a great dps makes sooook much difference. I lean towards dps but I've seen healers solo healing hard bosses in progress and that's half on their class and half on them being pros. I guess DPS.

  11. #51
    Anybody who answers this question with anything other than DPS either doesn't raid or is so fantastically shitty at raiding they don't realize how important good DPS is in this game.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    As far as tanks, I think its tough to find a tank with the right personality and communication abilities.
    Biggest issue is guilds usually want to recruit a tank with stellar dps parses, leadership personality, vocal, etc. but you can't have 2 "leaders" as they end up clashing with each other.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Biggest issue is guilds usually want to recruit a tank with stellar dps parses, leadership personality, vocal, etc. but you can't have 2 "leaders" as they end up clashing with each other.
    Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant by personality issues.

    If a tank (especially a trial or non-leadership tank) lacks social skills, they tend to be a "bad tank", regardless of their technical ability.

    Sometimes a tank just has trouble adapting to the group or their rhythm, but I find that's less common than them simply having alpha dog issues.

    Not saying that dps and healers don't have the same "social issues", it just doesn't usually break the "role", unless they take it to extremes.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant by personality issues.

    If a tank (especially a trial or non-leadership tank) lacks social skills, they tend to be a "bad tank", regardless of their technical ability.

    Sometimes a tank just has trouble adapting to the group or their rhythm, but I find that's less common than them simply having alpha dog issues.

    Not saying that dps and healers don't have the same "social issues", it just doesn't usually break the "role", unless they take it to extremes.
    It's often the fault of recruitment process, as I said. I remember a situation where a guild had an officer who also happened to be the main tank, and the other tank quit because he went to the military. That officer was reviewing tank apps and checking for orange parses. Then it came to actually tanking with the other guy and the officer was complaining "the other guy is fucking him up". The truth was, they were both trying to scumbag on dps, both being massive parse whores, and then nobody was soaking Kin'garoth's orbs or similar stuff.

    Not many main tanks and guild officers can appreciate what I'd call "a perfect off tank", the guy who enables the "main tank" to do all his min max dps strats by taking all the bitch jobs and basically being the second to the tango, lead by the "main tank". For example take conclave in BOD, the boss that heals to full will be not counting all the dps done to him on logs, but someone has to tank him. Now if tanks starts grumbling who has to take the "0 dps" boss, that's a problem. Because they both want to shine on the meters.

    If your guild has 1 tank who is "the alpha" and the other walks on his leash that doesn't mean the other one is a shit player. Maybe he'd just rather kill the boss than get into some ego contest.

    I'd say it's similar issue to nobody appreciating the dps that always does the escorts, faraway soaks, kite the add jobs, etc. Because his parse suffers for it. I remember a mage my guild had in Antorus that was always doing the escorts on Argus etc. but the raid leader didn't treat him well and the guy ended up leaving.

    It affects healers too, I remember guilds having problems with healers who would not get along with healing cooldown assignments because "they aren't getting enough value from their cd" or who made drama because they didn't get innervate / blessing of wisdom assigned to them.

    But yeah, shallow recruitment process (focusing only on player's class, spec and percentiles) is often what causes guilds to be stuck with drama queens and log-obsessed individuals.

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