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  1. #161
    Classic works for a few reasons. One, it gives you clear goals to chase. You know where your BiS drops and what you have to do to farm it. This is clearly a very popular model even to this day as gear is the main reason a lot of people play MMO's. The RNG and convulted gearing system in retail turns a lot of people off. Secondly, the ironic reason is that classic is a much more laid back and chill environment in group content. You can clear the raids easily in little time and without feeling the pressure of performing 100% or you wipe. The multi day mythic raiding model is simply not attractive to a lot of people in this gaming era. M+ at high level are similarly pretty cutthroat which turns people off. I quit classic since I did all this back in the day and doing it all again wasn't appealing to me. But I can see it for people who didn't play it back when.

  2. #162
    don't worry i can't get into classic either. every time i try to level i have this weird feeling that i'm wasting my time cause it's basically a game that's a dead end.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    *snip*
    Once again, a bunch of words that don't explain anything more than your personal feelings towards Classic rotations and Retail rotations. You're attempting to delicately dance around with all these paragraphs, when all you're saying is that you think because Retail rotations are more complex and synergized, they are objectively better.

    That's wrong.

    More buttons, more synergy... none of that means "better". It means it flows well, sure. It means the buttons have more meaning, and if executed properly, the reward will be more satisfying. But none of it means "better".

    To you, it's better. To you it feels better for those buttons to have synergy and complexity. But that's not true for everyone. It still stands, that no matter how many words you type, the Classic rotations are not objectively bad. They're just easy, or simpler. I don't understand why you have to call it bad when all you mean is it's simpler.

    Clocking out, this is a ridiculous topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Rotations having more intricacies, synergy, diversity and player engagement is not objectively better. Period.
    This guy gets it. Whew, someone does, at least!

  4. #164
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Most of my b.net friends play it now, and as one of the original players, you'd think I'd be drawn to it for ol'nostalgia's sake or because one of the many problems I'm dissatisfied with in live.

    Yet, I can't bear playing it, tried a number of times. It is worse in nearly every way to live. The only thing it has over live is community. Somehow despite the brilliance that was sharding and xrealm (something I use to seriously suggest back in the day ), live has lost togetherness. It's hard to explain.

    However, in every departement it is vastly superior to classic. Classes, races, system, art, functionality, the works.. all so much better. Live is far more engaging - the only regret i think is that you can't actually experience the entire expansion systems as you level through them. It would have been nice if Shadowlands gave you the systems that were in place during the expansion you lveelled. But that doesn't make practical sense as it'd be too confusing for players.
    I am of the exact same mind set as you. I joined back in mid 2005 fresh out of bootcamp and while all my friends were going out to bars and strip clubs almost nightly, I was in my barracks room slaying Onyxia like a boss. I loved the game back then, but when I log into classic I just cant shake that feeling that I'm just playing a scuffed version of retail. And no I don't mean to shit on Classic and I'm not a retail fanboy I can't force myself to log into retail for more than 10 minutes these days.

    I can't even give Classic a nod for it's community since all I have seen from Classic since it's launch is a barrage of nonstop drama. The bolded part I do understand what you are saying and I would agree with that as well the 'community' feeling is long dead in retail wow which is a damn shame, but Classic has shown to be the other end of the extreme in that regard with 'mafias' and guilds literally ruining the game for players and not allowing them to ever play the game by controlling and camping entire zones (including spirit rezzers) as if they were territory in a gang war or some post-apocolyptic shit lol.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the gigantic difference between "better" and "more fun" so I'm gonna make this post to explain how they are the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

    Someone tells you it's better to eat an apple than to eat a celery.
    You say you prefer the taste of celery.
    That's fine, it's what you prefer. That's the subjectivity.
    An apple still has more nutrient, it's a objectively a better food than celery even if you prefer the taste of celery.

    Now let's put that in the context of rotation.

    Someone tells you retail rotations are better than classic rotations.
    You say you have more fun with classic rotations.
    That's fine, it's what you prefer. That's the subjectivity.
    Retail rotations have more intricacies, synergy, diversity and player engagement, that's objectively better even if you prefer the simplicity of classic rotations.

    Notice in my previous posts I never made any mention of retail rotations being more FUN, "better" and "fun" are 2 entirely different things. You can have your fun with anything you want. I'm not saying you should stop enjoying classic rotations. I'm not even saying that I think classic rotations are less fun. All of those are subjective, because appreciation (fun) is subjective. The technical aspects that make retail rotations better, however, are not subjective.

    I'm saying that when you consider the technical aspects of game design that make a rotation better, then you can understand which one is better, YOU MAY STILL NOT ENJOY THE BETTER ROTATION, BECAUSE BETTER DOES NOT MEAN MORE FUN TO YOU (just like more fun to you does not mean it's better, quality is unrelated to appreciation). This applies to basically everything. There's plenty of things in life that I enjoy even while understanding they are not better than the other thing, that's the duality between subjectivity and objectivity. Everything in the world has 2 states for each person, one is the natural reality of things (objectivity) and the other is that person's perspective of things (subjectivity). These 2 states can coexist in perfect harmony even if they are opposite, they can also be the same either through ignorance or knowledge of the subject.
    Let me reducto ad absurdum your argument. You're saying that rotations with more intricacies are always better. So then you're saying that a rotation with 1000 intricacies is better than one with 100? A rotation with a million is better than 1000? Let's add 10 billion randomly generated talents that all interact with each other, that's got to be better!

    At the end of the day, your argument reduces to yourself arrogantly claiming that your opinions cannot be disagreed with because you are able to be entirely impartial, hilariously ignoring the fact that people are disagreeing with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    I don't really hate bfa, outside of the extreme rng and crap systems and garbage gameplay

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    Classic rotations were boring and bad why are you even trying to argue this. Even the people that love Classic the most would admit to rotations being shit lol
    Because the mind blowing level of fanboism from a handful of classic fans leaves them incapable of admitting any flaws. They are so emotionally invested in the game, they genuinely cannot accept any constructive criticism of it. Most of us who enjoy classic are capable of admitting the rotations are completely terrible, just beyond shit, and that is why no other mmo or games in general have returned to such a braindead format.

  7. #167
    I play on Westfall in classic. Great server. We have 3 40 man teams with subs. That's at least 140 raiders. Tell me again how retail compares? We are a gaming community that loves each others company. Retail at its best never had this.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Let me reducto ad absurdum your argument. You're saying that rotations with more intricacies are always better. So then you're saying that a rotation with 1000 intricacies is better than one with 100? A rotation with a million is better than 1000? Let's add 10 billion randomly generated talents that all interact with each other, that's got to be better!

    At the end of the day, your argument reduces to yourself arrogantly claiming that your opinions cannot be disagreed with because you are able to be entirely impartial, hilariously ignoring the fact that people are disagreeing with you.
    How ironic. You clearly got your definition from google, without a doubt - i am absolutely, 100% confident you googled that. You know how im so confident? you completely murdered the grammar in that first sentence, what an utter disgrace. The second hint is that even though you got the definition from google, you literally used it as a defense. Intentionally using a logical fallacy, and even naming the fallacy for everyone, is not a good way to build a strong argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeppelin67 View Post
    I play on Westfall in classic. Great server. We have 3 40 man teams with subs. That's at least 140 raiders. Tell me again how retail compares? We are a gaming community that loves each others company. Retail at its best never had this.
    Well actually mr burner account, clearly the alt account of someone in this thread - that is at least 122 raiders, not 140. An argument could be made for 126. The real irony here is that classic was retail at one stage, as was bc, and wrath - both more successful iterations of wow. The classic community is killing itself, its so funny to watch.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-01-18 at 12:19 AM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    The multi day mythic raiding model is simply not attractive to a lot of people in this gaming era. M+ at high level are similarly pretty cutthroat which turns people off.
    I get your point. Classic is like a chill friends and family game. However many people enjoy challenging and competitive gameplay. Retail WoW is the game with the most "complex" raid mechanics out there. To each their own.

    Honestly I would enjoy the loot model of Classic better. But I would never be able to raid with bosses that have 1-3 mechanics. Give me Firefighter Mimiron and I'm more than thrilled.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How ironic. You clearly got your definition from google, without a doubt - i am absolutely, 100% confident you googled that. You know how im so confident? you completely murdered the grammar in that first sentence, what an utter disgrace. The second hint is that even though you got the definition from google, you literally used it as a defense. Intentionally using a logical fallacy, and even naming the fallacy for everyone, is not a good way to build a strong argument.

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    Well actually mr burner account, clearly the alt account of someone in this thread - that is at least 122 raiders, not 140. An argument could be made for 126. The real irony here is that classic was retail at one stage, as was bc, and wrath - both more successful iterations of wow. The classic community is killing itself, its so funny to watch.
    Regardless of the grammar, because who cares about grammar police jesus - reducto ad absurdum is when you argue something is true by showing the opposite is absurd. He said that rotations with more complexity are objectively better. I showed that's absurd because it leads to the conclusion that you should make rotations as ridiculously complicated as possible because more complexity is always better. Therefore, complexity is not always better. Shewn.

    Prove me wrong lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    I don't really hate bfa, outside of the extreme rng and crap systems and garbage gameplay

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    reducto ad absurdum is when you argue something is true by showing the opposite is absurd. He said that rotations with more complexity are objectively better. I showed that's absurd because it leads to the conclusion that you should make rotations as ridiculously complicated as possible because more complexity is always better.

    Prove me wrong lol.
    Oh dear, see why you should have just stopped? You did the exact opposite of what you claim you did. Seriously, you cant be this blind. Do you know what opposite means?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh dear, see why you should have just stopped? You did the exact opposite of what you claim you did. Seriously, you cant be this blind. Do you know what opposite means?
    Do you think I'm trying to argue that he's right or he's wrong?

    Here's what I'm saying:

    My argument: more complexity is not objectively better.
    His: more complexity is always better.

    My reducto ad absurdium: If more complexity is always better, you should make rotations as ridiculously complex as possible.

    This is crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    I don't really hate bfa, outside of the extreme rng and crap systems and garbage gameplay

  13. #173
    I stopped playing classic wow because the playerbase has become increasingly toxic, especially the streamers.

    Sucks to play on arcanite reaper and then everybody goes to the same server as the streamer.

    Feels bad knowing that the streamers are practically handed legendaries, loot, and gold while I have to work my ass off.

  14. #174
    its been a year and i cant bear to play retail, logged in to do event for mount and just reminded me why i quit. I will just go back to classic. To each their own i guess

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    I stopped playing classic wow because the playerbase has become increasingly toxic, especially the streamers.

    Sucks to play on arcanite reaper and then everybody goes to the same server as the streamer.

    Feels bad knowing that the streamers are practically handed legendaries, loot, and gold while I have to work my ass off.
    It would seem most of the larger streamers have quit classic anyway, which sadly will make those realms even worse, imo.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    Wrong. Did you ask all those millions of people? Extremely doubtful.

    Simple =/= bad.
    True, but in classic's case a lot of the rotations are both simple and bad.

    Or have you truly deluded yourself into thinking shit like Frostbolt spam is good?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I think there are too many tanks. I also just draw the line at monks because I personally don’t find the class fantasy all that compelling, and stagger is fundamentally impossible to balance.
    Too many tanks? There is a lack of them currently

    Also, why take away options from players? Right now tanks feel different. Some focus on self healing, others on active or passive mitigation. Diverse and fun.

    Also, stagger just got nerfed. It is possible to balance it, it's just about the numbers.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    If retail is so good then why are you here typing about classic when you could be having a ball of a time in retail??? you really came over just to complain about something you don't play?...hey I'm gonna go over to a house with guys i know that play Dungeons and Dragons and tell them there game sucks and video games are far superior...or maybe just let the people that enjoy it, have there social fun without you trying to rain on it.
    They are paid shills from opposing corporations/competitors to Blizzard (astrotruf)

    The shill business (opposition shill) is huge across all industries. In politics we call it "astroturfing."

    They do primarily to discourage new players (who are savvy readers, but lousy astroturf detectives) from trying/playing the game.

    Their ultimate goal it to choke out the supply of new customers (players) that would have otherwise replaced retired customers (players).

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    Too many tanks? There is a lack of them currently

    Also, why take away options from players? Right now tanks feel different. Some focus on self healing, others on active or passive mitigation. Diverse and fun.
    There may be a lack of tank players, but I don't believe that adding more tank classes helps that problem much. In my experience people usually pick the role they want then choose the class.

    This is an agree to disagree point, but I don't like that many options because (as Blizzard has clearly shown) not all of them will be good. I'd rather have a smaller number because that's easier to balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    I don't really hate bfa, outside of the extreme rng and crap systems and garbage gameplay

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I'd rather have a smaller number because that's easier to balance.
    But they are balanced. If you look at tank scores at Mythic+10 and below they all score the same. It's similar for normal raids (and even heroic raids to an extent)

    At higher difficulty is where you start seeing the imbalance. But should they really tune the classes to the content that the least ammount of players run? Less than 1,000 guilds (around 20,000 players) have killed Mythic Azshara. We don't know the exact number of active players, but considering a (really low) player base of 2M then only 1% of the players have killed her. You don't tune a game around that 1%

    A place where you see massive imbalance is with world first guilds. They stack the FotM spec to push through. But you only see this in less than 50 guilds for the first few lockouts.

    Then the whole Mythic+/Raid/PvP. It's almost imposible to balance everything perfectly across the board at all difficulties.

    For the avarage player, all specs are balanced and can be played in all types of content.

    Then there's Classic. Balance isn't even a concept there
    Last edited by Ragnarohk; 2020-01-18 at 01:29 AM.

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