Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[Themius]

So a reporter asked a question to the doctor and the President wouldn't allow Fauci to answer.

[Magical Mudcrab]

It's because you aren't actually comprehending what they were saying.

You cannot unironically say this when you've not even read your own sources and consistently misquote them.

CBC will vet a source to ensure that they are in fact who they say they are, and report the information that they said. That is the extent that needs to be "vetted". What is not however, is whether the content of what they said is actually accurate. They're reporting what the source has said.

They specifically did not mention anything about the persons role, level of authority, or knowledge on the subject. Literally the only quote they use from them is that they are going to be buying a bunch of stuff. That's about as vague as you can possibly get. Also of note, the same source mentioned that US companies were also paying above market price. Are the companies also to blame?

OK, so you simply don't believe the source, and you don't believe that CBC would take quotes from a relevant source. That's fine, but that just means you shouldn't be referencing these articles then. All you've done is complain about conclusions made from the articles that you brought into the thread. The only times you've agreed with them is when you've misquoted them or blatantly lied about what they said.

And, again, any person with the ability to think would know a private company and a government do not have the same level of responsibility.

But again, if all you have his hearsay, it's meaningless. Name the company you bought them from. Show the emailed response as to why the order was cancelled. Maybe have your legal team put cancellation language into the order, like most companies do.

The other problem with hearsay is that a lot of this is not even first hand. It's highly likely Jean Rottner was not on the tarmac in Shanghai. It's also likely that the purchaser (who is probably not Rottner) was not on the tarmac either. So at best this is something that the supplier would have had to tell the purchaser who then would have told Rottner. Every step of communication allows for more inaccuracies.

Bear in mind that the first story from France was already backtracked on, from Renaud Muselier, accusing the US of the same thing. Rottner made their statements after, parroting the same thing Muselier said.

Furthermore, if you read this website from France, it states that there were 5 million masks ordred for the Grand Est region (where Rottner is from).

If you check Rottner's twitter here, Those 5 million masks arrived on March 31st.

So you have these officials saying things, one backing down, and the other posting about how they got their delivery the same time as the story is out. It couldn't possibly be that people are just repeating the same story, and hoping if enough people do, people will believe it?

The story also blames disorganization at the airport, and the fact that many of these orders are placed through brokers, not through the suppliers themselves. Which means the order process goes something like:
1. Company/Country asks broker if they have X masks
2. Broker checks with supplier, quotes the coompany/country
3. Company/Country then needs to cut a purchase order to the broker
4. Broker needs to cut a PO to the supplier
5. Supplier accepts the order

Any point after 2 and before the end of 5, you can lose an order. That's part of the problem of going through a broker. The broker can say "hey, we got all this product sitting on a plane, ready to go, just send me a PO". Most governments (or even companies for that matteR), need time to actually create, and release a PO. While that's going on, it's very feasible that the US showed up with cash direct to the supplier and said "we'll take it". Goods are sold, and by the time the other company/country sends their order in, "their" goods are gone.

Yes, hearsay from multiple governments across the developed and developing world. Your entire argument relies on an intentional conspiracy to smear the US, because that's the only reason to lie about it. At best you're being willfully ignorant. Moreover, the masks they received were not the ones initially ordered; Rottner said that it was a struggle to procure masks, as well as saying the order had been interrupted during consignment. These aren't mutually exclusive, it just shows that France needed to scramble to account for missing supplies.

The goods aren't being lost, it's been made clear that the deals they made are being reneged on.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

[Krastyn]

So, the problem is that you've taken a change in Germany's story as being a refutation. The story from Germany, in the article, did not change in regards to the complaint. The complaint is still that the US diverted medical resources that were to be shipped to Germany to America. What has changed in their story is the supplier, which seems to not be 3M. As I've said, it's possible that Germany is incorrect. If that comes out, I'll obviously retract this.

Germany has said it was from a German supplier now, not 3M.
Germany has also back tracked on both "siezed" and "confiscated".

Once again, this was an order placed through a broker, then to the supplier. See my previous comments on this.

What's abhorrent isn't the bidding, as I've said numerous times now. What's abhorrent is the predatory practice of waiting until the bidding process is done, and then after-the-fact interfering with the actual consignment; they interrupt delivery and offer the companies many times the current price. They wait for the process to be complete, for there to be a commitment made, and then offer so much money that the suppliers are willing to renege on the agreements made. This leads to uncertainty, especially in countries like Brazil, about when they will be able to get medical supplies.

Can you show exactly where they swooped in after the bidding process has closed? As right now, you've linked responses from a customer, who was given a reason from their broker, why the supplier didn't sell them something.

Racism doesn't need to be overt to be racism. The idea that America's tactics are OK simply because they can do it, with a wild disregard of how it affects non Americans, esp. developing counties, is - at best - an indifference towards foreigners dying, at worst racial indifference.

If Nigeria was the richest country in the world, I would expect them to also be spending their money. I would expect Germany to spend more than Brazil. I would expect Brazil to spend more than Ethiopia. That doesn't make each country racist to the country economically below them.

And yes, countries have a disregard for how their actions affect non-residents. Every country does this every day. There wouldn't be impoverished states, or climate issues if this weren't the case.

No, you can purchase supplies. Again, as I've said 5 or 6 times now, the problem is the method by which they procure supplies, and how this is causing counties to simply have none.

You have stated several times that they can purchase supplies, but still refuse to explain the how, or place any blame on the seller.

You keep stating how the US is "swooping" in, but none of the actual complaints go into detail on how it happened. Just that they got outbid.

In the article, they didn't back down, they said it wasn't 3M that they had ordered with. The core of the issue was the same. Also, how you're describing what the US is doing is incredibly reductive. It would be better described as the US intentionally denying supply of medical goods to other nations.

No, as noted above, the core of the issue has changed drastically. If you think "a modern act of piracy" and "outbid" are remotely in the same ballpark, I don't know what to say.

Once again, in a shortage situation, someone is going to be denied the good. So if you're going to say the US is intentionally denying supply of medical goods to other nations, so is every single country that is buying the same good.

Here's the problem, you're asking inane questions for the sake of asking inane questions. We can't possibly know what the numbers are, we don't even have accurate reporting of COVID cases in the US; how would they quantify supply requirements? The only thing we can tell from the source, combined with their current malicious practices, is that the US intends to purchase medical supplies at the expense of denying other nations access to supplies.

See above. We're in a shortage situation. The US has the most cases and it is expected to get worse. The US isn't even supplied to the level they need to be at, yet alone being oversupplied.

Because a private company is not expected to act in the public interest, but governments should. This is especially so with governments that have been big receivers of humanitarian and military aid in the past.

The government is acting in the public's interest. The public that voted for them. That is their first priority.

This is one of the reasons why I don't think you read the articles, because they're very clear. The US is interfering with the process after bidding, when agreements have been made between the government and the supplier; they're offering the suppliers enough money to renege on the agreement.

Your continued responses like this strike me that you have no idea how actual contracts work, and that you are not reading the articles. All of the stories thus far are very clear the complainant dealing through an intermediary, not the supplier. The German story, Both French stories. The intermediary is telling the governments that they cannot purchase the goods from the supplier.

Which is great, but the once instance you gave was incorrect as it was no longer relevant. The two weeks are unacceptable, but they were lifted. I'm fairly sure that any other examples would end up being the same. Saying to "Google it" is great, if a little silly, but it's not on me do the legwork for you. If you give references, I'll look at them.

Still relevant, as you mentioned above, as you have no idea what impact it had.

As for restrictions, you can start here, then I'm done holding your hand.

A private company and a government, a world power at that, should not be held to the same standard. This is a false equivalence.

Considering some corporations have more financial and political clout than some countries, I would disagree that they shouldn't be held accountable.

1) Germany has not backed down on their claim that the US has taken the shipment, only that it was another company, not 3M.

They have severely backed down their initial claim from "Stolen" to "outbid". Not even after the fact. Just outbid. That's a massive change.

2) The US is interfering with the consignment process, after the bidding has taken place, causing countries to be blindsided and left without medical supplies.

Again, no evidence to this yet. We have one French official who claimed it, and then backed down, another who claimed it, yet has his goods on the same day. Germany isn't even arguing this right now. It's now just turned to outbid.

3) You dismiss any evidence that is not a direct quote from the company confirming, which would be suicide for their business, and dismiss the claims of multiple governments. This is demented.

I'm wanting any kind of documentation to back it up. Signed order confirmations. Emails. Name the company that did it so people can at least ask the question.

You're not willing to condemn the US because you're blind, not because you're well reasoned.

No, I'm just not willing to condemn a country based on third hand or worse hearsay information that can't be verified, especially when three other similar accusations (Canada, France, Germany) have either been rescinded or proven false. You just seem to have a very, very low bar when it comes to the US.

China caused the situation. They're not absolved for their role, but we're not at the point where were can look at these events from an abstract point of view and make enemies with people that are - now - trying to help. What's more is that China's situation occurred before the shortages; they ate into the stockpile, but they're not the ones denying poor countries access to medical supplies.

Yes, China actions did indeed cause the situation. They overbought. It depleted stocks. Now you're saying there's not enough, and it's the person who buys the last mask that is to blame for other people not getting enough. It's an odd philosophy to hold. Everyone who has bought masks in the last two months is partly responsible for there being no inventory of masks. But if pointing the finger solely at the US makes you sleep better at night, whatever helps you.

[Zantos]

Saw this video about empty hospitals on facebook from my uncle. Read some comments and now I am even more worried about our ability to deal with this. People are seeing these videos and are using them to blert out about how fake this whole pandemic is. They don't even realize whats going on or why these hospitals may even be near empty right now.

First of all, not everywhere has been hit as hard as say, new york. So of course a hospital in a city that has maybe a population of 100k but only 10 cases isn't going to be over flowing. Second of all, they ignore the fact that most hospitals are severally limiting who can go in and all non critical traffic flow to their facilities. They are doing things like cancelling appointments and telling people only the patient to be seen can come in. Heck, even my uncles daughter had a post just the other day about how her hospital was limiting all traffic to Just the patient and no one else.

Third, none of the people in the video above actually enter the hospitals. They have no idea whats going on inside of the hospitals. The only one that looks inside of a building looks at a waiting room which, of course, is going to be barren due to the limitations and social distancing guidelines being put into effect. Heck, the tents are empty because they are there in preparation.

Fourth, its like they ignore the fact that how some politicians handle this crisis is making their entire career look like a joke. Heck, my states governor probably wont be re-elected due to his handling of this situation. What politician wants to go up in front of hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, and be chastised for not handling this well enough or have to make excuses for why they cant manage it?

Finally, they arn't shutting down gun shops! They arn't limiting our ability to buy ammunition, or to go to shooting ranges. In what world would this be some massive plot to control the masses by lying about a pandemic while simultaneously ensuring that gun and ammunition purchases Sky rocket to all time records as a result of the panic. I mean come on! The mere fact that gun sales are not being hindered should be enough proof that this is not an attempt to control the masses thanks to more people then ever before being armed.

I am seriously losing all hope in humanity here. They are beyond stupid and I cannot believe that just because a few hospitals are empty, they think the entire world is lying about this.

[Krastyn]

OK, so you simply don't believe the source, and you don't believe that CBC would take quotes from a relevant source. That's fine, but that just means you shouldn't be referencing these articles then. All you've done is complain about conclusions made from the articles that you brought into the thread. The only times you've agreed with them is when you've misquoted them or blatantly lied about what they said.

You realize I can use the source for the point I was actually making (Germany backtracking, which I've linked 3 other pages now that confirm this)?

YOU brought up the the section of the article that quoted the unnamed source for YOUR argument, which have zero other sources backing it.

And, again, any person with the ability to think would know a private company and a government do not have the same level of responsibility.

It's not solely a question of authority, it's the fact that companies are also paying above market value (aka, outbidding) other customers.

Yes, hearsay from multiple governments across the developed and developing world. Your entire argument relies on an intentional conspiracy to smear the US, because that's the only reason to lie about it. At best you're being willfully ignorant. Moreover, the masks they received were not the ones initially ordered; Rottner said that it was a struggle to procure masks, as well as saying the order had been interrupted during consignment. These aren't mutually exclusive, it just shows that France needed to scramble to account for missing supplies.

I don't need to reference a conspiracy. Three of the countries/organizations that ran different stories have already backtracked on what they initially claimed.

If the US is constantly outbidding and undercutting everyone all the time, how did the US manage to buy 5 million masks one day, then somehow not buy 5 million more later the same day? Other French officials note delays and problems at the airport, as I've already mentioned.

You seem to think it's entirely unlikely for:
- A good to be sold after quote but before order is place
- A good to be sold after order is placed with an agent, but before the agent orders it from the supplier
- A supplier to lie about the reason why something is delayed
- There to be a mix-up in communication between the supplier, the agent, the purchaser, and the manager or two between the purchaser and the person speaking to the press.

No, you jump right to "The US are assholes" when multiple stories have shown the to be false, based on one or more points from the above.

The goods aren't being lost, it's been made clear that the deals they made are being reneged on.

No, that hasn't been shown anywhere. You need to carefully read what's actually being said.

[Knaar]

This is the second article I've seen where COVID-19 is confirmed to jump species (the first was about a housecat catching COVID-19).

Does it matter that it's only cats? (is it only cats - checking)

A dog was also tested positive, but yeah so far from what i have seen, you can count on one hand the number of animals tested positive to the virus and each time, their owner/trainer was the first one to be infected.

[xenogear3]

It is just a big hoax.

Banks can get foreclosure houses for free when the unemployment rate hits 20%.
Trump is in it too. He is a big pump and dump guy.
[Infraction]

[Deja Thoris]

It is just a big hoax.

Banks can get foreclosure houses for free when the unemployment rate hits 20%.
Trump is in it too. He is a big pump and dump guy.

Umm sure, and all the doctors and governments around the world are in on it too right? And all of the press, and the police, and social media.

The other alternative is you're a conspiracy peddling idiot.

/thinking
[Infraction]

[Magical Mudcrab]

Germany has said it was from a German supplier now, not 3M.
Germany has also back tracked on both "siezed" and "confiscated".

Once again, this was an order placed through a broker, then to the supplier. See my previous comments on this.

Can you show exactly where they swooped in after the bidding process has closed? As right now, you've linked responses from a customer, who was given a reason from their broker, why the supplier didn't sell them something.

That's fair enough. As I've said - multiple times - I'm open to Germany's account having been flawed. America's account is still predatory, and we'll know more in the coming days.

If Nigeria was the richest country in the world, I would expect them to also be spending their money. I would expect Germany to spend more than Brazil. I would expect Brazil to spend more than Ethiopia. That doesn't make each country racist to the country economically below them.

And yes, countries have a disregard for how their actions affect non-residents. Every country does this every day. There wouldn't be impoverished states, or climate issues if this weren't the case.

Well, since you seem to be OK with it, could you tell me, exactly, how many dead Brazilians you're OK with because of America's predatory policy. If you're going to defend the act, I want you to defend the result.

You have stated several times that they can purchase supplies, but still refuse to explain the how, or place any blame on the seller.

You keep stating how the US is "swooping" in, but none of the actual complaints go into detail on how it happened. Just that they got outbid.

The seller is not to blame. A private company does not have the same level of responsibility as a government - which should be working in the best interest of its people and its allies.

No, as noted above, the core of the issue has changed drastically. If you think "a modern act of piracy" and "outbid" are remotely in the same ballpark, I don't know what to say.

This is a great example of a strawman; the situation Germany earlier described and what the US is doing with other countries is not the same, and I've not described Germany's earlier account as being similar to what has been occurring with countries like France (which seems to be more along the lines of what happened to Germany). It's still predatory, but it's not, as they described, an act of piracy.

Once again, in a shortage situation, someone is going to be denied the good. So if you're going to say the US is intentionally denying supply of medical goods to other nations, so is every single country that is buying the same good.

What the US is doing is purchasing the supplies after the countries have been lead to believe the deal was complete. This is why it has been described on the deals having been reneged on. If this were simply a case of the US out bidding other countries in the traditional sense, this wouldn't be an issue; however, how it is described is that they're is waiting for the bidding to be over, the countries to believe the deal is done, and then they make an offer that the supplier can't refuse. They're not giving countries time to respond and throwing their supply lines into disarray.

See above. We're in a shortage situation. The US has the most cases and it is expected to get worse. The US isn't even supplied to the level they need to be at, yet alone being oversupplied.

Another strawman, I have not said they're oversupplied.

The government is acting in the public's interest. The public that voted for them. That is their first priority.

That's great, but this doesn't do anything but say that the US simply doesn't care about the well-being of its allies and neighbours. That's an OK stance to take if you want to take it, but you don't then get to complain about blowback.

Your continued responses like this strike me that you have no idea how actual contracts work, and that you are not reading the articles. All of the stories thus far are very clear the complainant dealing through an intermediary, not the supplier. The German story, Both French stories. The intermediary is telling the governments that they cannot purchase the goods from the supplier.

I have read the articles, you've been consistently misquoting them, and I've quoted the articles at you multiple times when you've misrepresented them. Who the country is dealing with is entirely irrelevant, as all accounts we have provided is that the US is interfering with the purchase of goods in a manner that it catching countries off-guard and leaving them needing to scramble to purchase the already promised supplies.

As for restrictions, you can start here, then I'm done holding your hand.

You're acting like it's hand-holding, when it's just me asking you to prove your point outside the demented conspiracy theories you've been spouting. And yes, I condemn the countries doing this, as I said I would.

Considering some corporations have more financial and political clout than some countries, I would disagree that they shouldn't be held accountable.

Well, that's great, but that's now how it is in reality. A company does not have the same level of responsibility as a government.

They have severely backed down their initial claim from "Stolen" to "outbid". Not even after the fact. Just outbid. That's a massive change.

Sure, and this is the first time you've given me a source for you claim that they've backed down. As I said, I'm willing to acknowledge that the earlier account from Germany was wrong.

Again, no evidence to this yet. We have one French official who claimed it, and then backed down, another who claimed it, yet has his goods on the same day. Germany isn't even arguing this right now. It's now just turned to outbid.

I'm wanting any kind of documentation to back it up. Signed order confirmations. Emails. Name the company that did it so people can at least ask the question.

No, I'm just not willing to condemn a country based on third hand or worse hearsay information that can't be verified, especially when three other similar accusations (Canada, France, Germany) have either been rescinded or proven false. You just seem to have a very, very low bar when it comes to the US.

Germany, France, and Brazil have all claimed that the US is party to predatory practices, and it's been relatively consistent. The major claim from Germany has been rescinded, but the articles show they still have additional complaints with how the US is conducting itself. I'm going to err on the side of the international community, over the conspiracy theory you are espousing they are party to.

Yes, China actions did indeed cause the situation. They overbought. It depleted stocks. Now you're saying there's not enough, and it's the person who buys the last mask that is to blame for other people not getting enough. It's an odd philosophy to hold. Everyone who has bought masks in the last two months is partly responsible for there being no inventory of masks. But if pointing the finger solely at the US makes you sleep better at night, whatever helps you.

What amazing mischaracterizations. No, the issue is that the US is massively exacerbating the problem and is making it so that some countries are simply unable to secure medical supplies.

[IIamaKing]

People turn to the government in times of crisis, those who do not trust the government in the US will be better off as the White House is still not taking this serious and still sending mixed messages. Each time a recommendation is made it is countered by the fool pretending to be president.

The fucking "voluntary" mask "recommendation" was my breaking point I think, I'm not sure I can listen to anymore of it. Like, that address will result in more people dying than needed if he had just took a leadership role backup the recommendation and wear a fucking mask. Its HIS fucking voters he'd be saving.

[PhaelixWW]

It's not an ad hominem, be definition. When you're simply meme-ing, you can't expect to be taken seriously and then cry foul when people think your only intent is to distract and be a troll.

When I refute your argument, and you ignore that and instead sling insults, that's an ad hominem. You pretending that I didn't refute your argument doesn't mean your insult, which you don't even deny, isn't an ad hominem.

And who the heck is "meme-ing"? Do you even know what a meme is? It's sad that you can't even keep your insults coherent.

This is why I can't seem to take what you say seriously. You've obviously not read my posts, as you're laser-focusing on something that is largely tangential to the discussion I keep trying to bring everything back to: America's predatory practices in obtaining medical supplies.

Bully for you, but I don't have to get dragged into your whole argument just to take exception with one or two points. That's not how this works.

The only time the anonymous source has been brought up, since I initially put it in my summary, is when people have mentioned it, which you have constantly done. If people want to discuss it, that's fine, but I'll put faith in CBC's vetting process for their sources. If you want to cast doubt on that specific aspect of what I've been saying in the thread, that's fine, but I'm not acting like it's a smoking gun, and acting as such is to be constructing a strawman or intentionally lying at worst. It's not the smoking gun, the smoking gun is multiple countries attesting to the predatory practices, which has been the primary thing I've been discussing in the thread, the anonymous source attesting to America wanting to stockpile resources just makes it worse. I should reiterate, I don't put my complete faith in that source, the same way I don't put my complete faith in Germany's assertion of the US stealing medical supplies, but I will believe the source over a poster - who has provided no evidence of their own, really to go against any point I've made - that can't decide if they want to meme or have a conversation, and then gets mad when people dismiss him because he's memeing.

Wonderful. So you don't even put much faith in what they said. And yet, when I expressed that one particular quote was being taken as far more meaningful than it was, and also took exception with the idea that the US somehow had anywhere close to "enough" medical supplies, you decided to respond with an entirely condescending shitpost. And shitpost it indeed was.

Newsflash. If you shitpost, then you shouldn't really expect to get too much back in the way of honest dialogue. But that doesn't mean you get to throw unwarranted ad hominems around.

That article was actually a Reuters article, but nobody's saying anything about their vetting process. I'm sure they vetted their source as a DHS bureaucrat. But they didn't vet the accuracy of his statement, they merely reported on it. That's a fair distinction. The attitude of one DHS bureaucrat, though, who is almost certainly not a part of that process and sure as hell is not in charge of that process, quite simply is not an extremely credible source for that kind of information.

And regardless of that statement or its veracity, the truth of the matter is that the US has far less supplies than are immediately needed. Even a cursory glance at the newsfeeds from CNN will tell you that much. It's also blatantly apparent to everyone that the US is not even remotely at the top of the curve, and that the situation is only going to get worse.

So the US government absolutely should attempt to obtain more and more PPE over the next few weeks. But the idea that the US is hoarding supplies is farcical. That viewpoint would be suspect even if the US actually had enough supplies, but facing the severe shortage that's here, it's even more ridiculous.

Also, 3M Says No Evidence That Products Have Been Seized

3M said media reports alleging that a shipment of 3M personal protective equipment was seized and diverted by U.S. authorities on April 3 are incorrect.

“3M has no evidence to suggest 3M products have been seized. 3M has no record of any order of respirators from China for the Berlin police. We cannot speculate where this report originated,” the company said in a statement.

The manufacturer has extended an offer to German authorities to try to determine if the false report is the result of fraudulent activity. 3M says it will continue to maximize the amount of respirators produced for health care workers in the U.S. and worldwide.

The interior minister of the Berlin city-state government, Andreas Geisel, blamed “the U.S.A.” last week for the confiscation of 200,000 masks ordered from a U.S. producer when they were in transit through Bangkok.

He backed off his account on Saturday, saying on Twitter that the masks were ordered from a German company and why they didn’t reach Germany was under review.

So the US didn't seize Berlin's masks and 3M is still making masks for Canada, but I guess you still have that anonymous source.

[Themius]

Saw this video about empty hospitals on facebook from my uncle. Read some comments and now I am even more worried about our ability to deal with this. People are seeing these videos and are using them to blert out about how fake this whole pandemic is. They don't even realize whats going on or why these hospitals may even be near empty right now.

First of all, not everywhere has been hit as hard as say, new york. So of course a hospital in a city that has maybe a population of 100k but only 10 cases isn't going to be over flowing. Second of all, they ignore the fact that most hospitals are severally limiting who can go in and all non critical traffic flow to their facilities. They are doing things like cancelling appointments and telling people only the patient to be seen can come in. Heck, even my uncles daughter had a post just the other day about how her hospital was limiting all traffic to Just the patient and no one else.

Third, none of the people in the video above actually enter the hospitals. They have no idea whats going on inside of the hospitals. The only one that looks inside of a building looks at a waiting room which, of course, is going to be barren due to the limitations and social distancing guidelines being put into effect. Heck, the tents are empty because they are there in preparation.

Fourth, its like they ignore the fact that how some politicians handle this crisis is making their entire career look like a joke. Heck, my states governor probably wont be re-elected due to his handling of this situation. What politician wants to go up in front of hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, and be chastised for not handling this well enough or have to make excuses for why they cant manage it?

Finally, they arn't shutting down gun shops! They arn't limiting our ability to buy ammunition, or to go to shooting ranges. In what world would this be some massive plot to control the masses by lying about a pandemic while simultaneously ensuring that gun and ammunition purchases Sky rocket to all time records as a result of the panic. I mean come on! The mere fact that gun sales are not being hindered should be enough proof that this is not an attempt to control the masses thanks to more people then ever before being armed.

I am seriously losing all hope in humanity here. They are beyond stupid and I cannot believe that just because a few hospitals are empty, they think the entire world is lying about this.

The comments:

They are pushing "bandaid" vaccines as a possibility in the coming months, don't fall for it!

THEY SAY PEOPLE ARE DYING i think people are LYING

Mass VACCINATIONS is a plan the media is pushing. Dont get vaccinated

Empty Kaiser Permanente Baldwin Park California. It's all a hoax.

Think backwards,they are preparing for the masses
The "pandemic" alert was to stock hospitals,hoard N95 masks from the public,order body bags,print worthless money to pacify.
Open your eyes the veil will be lifted.

All the comments are the same... like everyone agrees with this shit the fuck.

[Magical Mudcrab]

You realize I can use the source for the point I was actually making (Germany backtracking, which I've linked 3 other pages now that confirm this)?

YOU brought up the the section of the article that quoted the unnamed source for YOUR argument, which have zero other sources backing it.

Germany changing the supplier is not the same as them changing the events around the diversion of the supplies. The CBC article you listed did not show this change.

I don't need to reference a conspiracy. Three of the countries/organizations that ran different stories have already backtracked on what they initially claimed.

If the US is constantly outbidding and undercutting everyone all the time, how did the US manage to buy 5 million masks one day, then somehow not buy 5 million more later the same day? Other French officials note delays and problems at the airport, as I've already mentioned.

You seem to think it's entirely unlikely for:
- A good to be sold after quote but before order is place
- A good to be sold after order is placed with an agent, but before the agent orders it from the supplier
- A supplier to lie about the reason why something is delayed
- There to be a mix-up in communication between the supplier, the agent, the purchaser, and the manager or two between the purchaser and the person speaking to the press.

No, you jump right to "The US are assholes" when multiple stories have shown the to be false, based on one or more points from the above.

No, that hasn't been shown anywhere. You need to carefully read what's actually being said.

I'm jumping to the US being predatory when multiple countries are experiencing similar issues with the US interfering with their securing of medical supplies. What you're claiming requires me to believe there's a concerted effort to specifically portray the US as interfering with these countries procurement. Is it possible? Sure, but the information these countries have is leading them to believe the US is playing unfair in the procurement of these supplies. I'm going to believe the international community over the united states.

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When I refute your argument, and you ignore that and instead sling insults, that's an ad hominem. You pretending that I didn't refute your argument doesn't mean your insult, which you don't even deny, isn't an ad hominem.

And who the heck is "meme-ing"? Do you even know what a meme is? It's sad that you can't even keep your insults coherent.

You literally re-entered the discussion by saying "The irony in these two assertions is palpable.", after and then continued to be non-constructive. You're free to cry foul, but you're crying about being dismissed when you're doing things that will lead to you being dismissed.

Wonderful. So you don't even put much faith in what they said. And yet, when I expressed that one particular quote was being taken as far more meaningful than it was, and also took exception with the idea that the US somehow had anywhere close to "enough" medical supplies, you decided to respond with an entirely condescending shitpost. And shitpost it indeed was.

Newsflash. If you shitpost, then you shouldn't really expect to get too much back in the way of honest dialogue. But that doesn't mean you get to throw unwarranted ad hominems around.

You've not made many constructive posts in our back-and-forth. You've primarily complained and tried to use gotchas on things that I don't hold in any major importance, which I had said multiple times at that point. You did correct my attribution, which I am thankful for.

That article was actually a Reuters article, but nobody's saying anything about their vetting process. I'm sure they vetted their source as a DHS bureaucrat. But they didn't vet the accuracy of his statement, they merely reported on it. That's a fair distinction. The attitude of one DHS bureaucrat, though, who is almost certainly not a part of that process and sure as hell is not in charge of that process, quite simply is not an extremely credible source for that kind of information.

And regardless of that statement or its veracity, the truth of the matter is that the US has far less supplies than are immediately needed. Even a cursory glance at the newsfeeds from CNN will tell you that much. It's also blatantly apparent to everyone that the US is not even remotely at the top of the curve, and that the situation is only going to get worse.

So the US government absolutely should attempt to obtain more and more PPE over the next few weeks. But the idea that the US is hoarding supplies is farcical. That viewpoint would be suspect even if the US actually had enough supplies, but facing the severe shortage that's here, it's even more ridiculous.

Sure, and that's fair. If this is what you entered into the discussion with, I wouldn't have been as flippant. We could have discussed whether the US securing medical resources at the expense of less equipped nations was predatory or not.

Also, 3M Says No Evidence That Products Have Been Seized

So the US didn't seize Berlin's masks and 3M is still making masks for Canada, but I guess you still have that anonymous source.

Sure, but I've repeatedly said that I'm open to Germany being wrong. Almost every single post I've mad has included this.

[Zantos]

The comments:







All the comments are the same... like everyone agrees with this shit the fuck.

I know. I cant believe how stupid people are. Yes, such a lie while people go out and buy guns and ammo. Doing a great job of getting the masses in line with that one! Their idiots. Its like they dont understand how numbers and locations work.

[Belize]

He is a big pump and dump guy.

Yeah, just ask his multitudes of ex wives

[breadisfunny]

Holly mother of fucking Christ it just raised to 4 cases, not counting the ones that are at the hospital from nearby municipalities.

im confused is this sarcasm?

[PhaelixWW]

This is the second article I've seen where COVID-19 is confirmed to jump species (the first was about a housecat catching COVID-19). @PhaelixWW - how worried should be we about species jumping and mutation?

Does it matter that it's only cats? (is it only cats - checking)

The earliest report was, I believe of a dog being infected in China. There have since been a few cats that have tested positive, as well as at least one more dog, and then as you noted, some tigers and lions at the Bronx Zoo.

The virus does seem to affect cats somewhat. They're able to catch it from humans and pass it on to other cats the same way that humans do. There's very little evidence to support that they can have enough viral shedding to infect a human in return, nor does it seem like any of the few infections have been more than mild cases (including the tigers and lions).

The dogs were all asymptomatic, and at least one study indicated that they didn't seem to be infectious (via viral shedding) even when they were exposed to it.

The same study did indicate that the virus does grow well in ferrets, as well as cats, so some scientists are already using ferrets in their research on treatment techniques. (Ferrets have been used similarly in flu research.)

As a method for mutation, it seems fairly unlikely.

[breadisfunny]

so uhm what do you want to discuss?

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It is just a big hoax.

Banks can get foreclosure houses for free when the unemployment rate hits 20%.
Trump is in it too. He is a big pump and dump guy.

i don't know if this is a really bad joke or your intentionally and maliciously spreading lies.

[Krastyn]

That's fair enough. As I've said - multiple times - I'm open to Germany's account having been flawed. America's account is still predatory, and we'll know more in the coming days.

Their account already has been shown as flawed. The level of extent is in debate. America's account is not predatory in this case yet. They have denied even being involved in this. I believe in this case it's going to be the supplier being shady, but as you said, we'll see.

Well, since you seem to be OK with it, could you tell me, exactly, how many dead Brazilians you're OK with because of America's predatory policy. If you're going to defend the act, I want you to defend the result.

I'll answer your question when you stop dodging mine. How should masks be distributed from the suppliers?

The seller is not to blame. A private company does not have the same level of responsibility as a government - which should be working in the best interest of its people and its allies.

The government's responsibility is for their people first, then their allies. Why isn't Canada sending their masks to Brazil? We're buying masks they could have. Because we need them.

This is a great example of a strawman; the situation Germany earlier described and what the US is doing with other countries is not the same, and I've not described Germany's earlier account as being similar to what has been occurring with countries like France (which seems to be more along the lines of what happened to Germany). It's still predatory, but it's not, as they described, an act of piracy.

Which part of occurring in France? The part that was already back tracked on? Nothing has been shown yet. That's the problem. We have multiple step removed hearsay, which in multiple other cases so far has proven to be false.

The difference between you and I though is that you keep assuming the accusations to be true, and I keep saying more information is needed before making a judgement.

What the US is doing is purchasing the supplies after the countries have been lead to believe the deal was complete. This is why it has been described on the deals having been reneged on. If this were simply a case of the US out bidding other countries in the traditional sense, this wouldn't be an issue; however, how it is described is that they're is waiting for the bidding to be over, the countries to believe the deal is done, and then they make an offer that the supplier can't refuse. They're not giving countries time to respond and throwing their supply lines into disarray.

Lead to believe by whom? The supplier. Nothing is mentioned as to when the US came in. Just that they did. The devil is in the details.

Another strawman, I have not said they're oversupplied.

Yet you felt the need to bring up the fact they want to be oversupplied.

That's great, but this doesn't do anything but say that the US simply doesn't care about the well-being of its allies and neighbours. That's an OK stance to take if you want to take it, but you don't then get to complain about blowback.

And they are entitled to blowback on actions that they legitimately and definitively do. Let me know when that happens.

I have read the articles, you've been consistently misquoting them, and I've quoted the articles at you multiple times when you've misrepresented them. Who the country is dealing with is entirely irrelevant, as all accounts we have provided is that the US is interfering with the purchase of goods in a manner that it catching countries off-guard and leaving them needing to scramble to purchase the already promised supplies.

Who the country is dealing with is entirely relevant. The fact you said the above shows how completely out of touch you are with supply chains and how they work.

Well, that's great, but that's now how it is in reality. A company does not have the same level of responsibility as a government.

Still does not make them any less accountable. But we're not going to agree on this.

Sure, and this is the first time you've given me a source for you claim that they've backed down. As I said, I'm willing to acknowledge that the earlier account from Germany was wrong.

Other than the literal first quote from CBC I gave you? Fucking hell man. How are you this obtuse?

Germany, France, and Brazil have all claimed that the US is party to predatory practices, and it's been relatively consistent. The major claim from Germany has been rescinded, but the articles show they still have additional complaints with how the US is conducting itself. I'm going to err on the side of the international community, over the conspiracy theory you are espousing they are party to.

And France has recinded one of the claims, and refused to back up the others. Brazil simply said the US bought everything. (Yet when France said the same thing, they were magically able to buy exactly what they needed, on the same day). Go figure.

What amazing mischaracterizations. No, the issue is that the US is massively exacerbating the problem and is making it so that some countries are simply unable to secure medical supplies.

How is the US massively exacerbating a problem when you yourself have stated they are not oversupplied, which means they need everything they are buying?