If BFA had been a N'zoth/South Seas xpac with no faction war...

[kansor]

This expac suffered from being unfocused and trying to do too many things, so imagine it had just been the South Seas/Azshara/N'zoth xpac everyone was expecting. What plot hook would you have used to get us to Kul Tiras and Zandalar? In the current story we go there to recruit them and their navies for the war. So if there were no war, what are some reasons we might go there?

[Soon-TM]

This expac suffered from being unfocused and trying to do too many things, so imagine it had just been the South Seas/Azshara/N'zoth xpac everyone was expecting. What plot hook would you have used to get us to Kul Tiras and Zandalar? In the current story we go there to recruit them and their navies for the war. So if there were no war, what are some reasons we might go there?

It would have been much better, but I guess someone in the dev team had an ostensible hardon for a MoP 2.0, and hamfisted it into the story no matter how.

[Queen of Hamsters]

It would've been the exact same thing, just switch faction war for something else that people could hate and blame their seemingly perpetual lack of enjoyment on.

The issues of BfA come down to gameplay designs. There's been some worthwhile stories. If I had to pick pet peeves, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha being done away as they have been I dislike far more than the Faction War in BfA.

Onward to Shadowlands, I hope they'll show us new things, like in MoP (which was hated on sooo much whilst current, but not by me).

[Zimpoli]

BfA was sprawling and messy

If they had more time it could've worked but trying to tell a story that big in a typical WoW expac isn't the move at all

[Varodoc]

Naga invasion probably? At least in Kul Tiras' case, we know it was moved by the Cataclysm (originally, before the Chronicles retcon), so it could've been invaded by a massive naga army after shifting too close to Nazjatar. Jaina would most likely intervene to save her nation from annihilation and redeem herself in the eyes of her people.

It's not even too different from what happened in BfA. Stormsong was invaded by a huge naga army and Azshara had corrupted the Tidesage Order and was keeping the Kul Tiran fleet trapped in order to significantly weaken the nation.

[Beloren]

Then isn't it mor elikely it would have been Azshara on the front page, with Naz'jatar the main continent, and Zul'dazar /Boralus would be just one island big. N'zoth would have been the hidden boss like Argus was, the real baddie behind the underlings like Azshara and Kil'jaeden.

[bloodmoth13]

all we needed for this expansion to shine was battle for lordaeron to happen before teldrassil.
Nothing else needed to change.

The faction war is a great opportunity to tell compelling stories, the faction war WASNT the problem. The problem was setting sylvanas up as a villian disguised as a faction war.
We went into it being told its horde vs alliance, but its really alliance vs sylvanas with the horde doing a bunch of warcrimes and a protest march.

We didnt need to kill another warchief, we needed the alliance to be the antagonists for a change. They dont even need to be villianous, in fact they have been more than justified in starting a war, it was logical even for them to retake lordaeron and then gilneas, but instead they do this completely nonsensical lopsided mess.

[Kelathos]

IMO, Battle for Dazar'alor was fine. More of its theme / story would have been fine.

The problem was splitting the story, and making a bad one at that.

[Soon-TM]

all we needed for this expansion to shine was battle for lordaeron to happen before teldrassil.
Nothing else needed to change.

The faction war is a great opportunity to tell compelling stories, the faction war WASNT the problem. The problem was setting sylvanas up as a villian disguised as a faction war.
We went into it being told its horde vs alliance, but its really alliance vs sylvanas with the horde doing a bunch of warcrimes and a protest march.

We didnt need to kill another warchief, we needed the alliance to be the antagonists for a change. They dont even need to be villianous, in fact they have been more than justified in starting a war, it was logical even for them to retake lordaeron and then gilneas, but instead they do this completely nonsensical lopsided mess.

Blizzard would never openly depict the Alliance as aggressors, even if justified (at least from their own PoV). Genn attacked another head of state during a ceasefire while having no idea of what she was actually doing, and everything was simply... forgotten. The Alliance, who now KNEW that Sylvanas was doing some funky stuff, just kind of... let her alone. Nothing makes sense.

Then isn't it mor elikely it would have been Azshara on the front page, with Naz'jatar the main continent, and Zul'dazar /Boralus would be just one island big. N'zoth would have been the hidden boss like Argus was, the real baddie behind the underlings like Azshara and Kil'jaeden.

And it would have been infinitely better.

[bloodmoth13]

Blizzard would never openly depict the Alliance as aggressors, even if justified (at least from their own PoV). Genn attacked another head of state during a ceasefire while having no idea of what she was actually doing, and everything was simply... forgotten. The Alliance, who now KNEW that Sylvanas was doing some funky stuff, just kind of... let her alone. Nothing makes sense.

Id didnt even need to be aggressive, it could have just been anduin manning up and taking calia to lordaeron with an army to demand sylvanas abducate to reinstate calia 'the rightful heir', sylvanas declines (rightfully) and then anduin insists, calling out the blighting of the meadows and forrests, the destruction of gilneas etc. Just an ultimatum. it was all perfectly set up, its a conflict that has always needed to happen, it was a perfect opportunity and they absolutely ruined it.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Could have worked better.

-Alliance side: Anduin decides it's time to mend old wounds and to go help Kul Tiras with the missing fleet. Jaina is adamant she has to go too and takes the occasion to see her mother. While she is locked up, solve Kul Tiras' problems to show we are reliable, and put Stormsong as last zone. Kul Tiras stops being diffident and joins.

-Horde side: Zandalar seeks out the horde to help with G'huun. Things go haywire and Rastakhan dies (or not). Zandalar stops being a thorn in the side of the world and joins the horde after they have proven to be a major force.

The blood god itself dies but its awakening is perceived by N'zoth who sends Azshara to attack while we are busy dealing with Uldir. We catch up with her and whack her over the head. N'zoth is freed and everything goes as it does now.

[kansor]

Naga invasion probably? At least in Kul Tiras' case, we know it was moved by the Cataclysm (originally, before the Chronicles retcon), so it could've been invaded by a massive naga army after shifting too close to Nazjatar. Jaina would most likely intervene to save her nation from annihilation and redeem herself in the eyes of her people.

Yeah, this works, although it does sort of ruin any element of subtlety. Hey, here's an idea...what if that whole "Daughter of the Sea" thing had some deeper meaning where the Proudmoores had some kind of ancient connection to Azshara, and through the course of the story Jaina discovers more about that bond? I'm thinking of Lovecraft's Shadow Over Innsmouth, since Old Gods are so Lovecraft-inspired, where the protagonist slowly discovers that his ancestors had crossbred with the evil fish monsters. If something similar were true of the Proudmoores or the Kul Tirans as a whole, that could explain several things, including Jaina's immense power over water magic. It also gives her a personal connection to the Azshara story.

Hell, instead of big and beefy based on Drust interbreeding, the Kul Tirans could be based on the inhabitants of Innsmouth, with strange fishy elements. Maybe in the years since the Cataclysm, they've developed a full-on Innsmouth situation and are all going fish mode. Kul Tiran AR could be an alternative to the playable jinyu people always wanted lol.

Then isn't it mor elikely it would have been Azshara on the front page, with Naz'jatar the main continent, and Zul'dazar /Boralus would be just one island big.

True, but I think we'd still follow a progression of South Seas > Nazjatar > Ny'alotha (which would be a zone unto itself). Maybe the main Nazjatar zone is the initial max level zone like Suramar, but then more Nazjatar zones get opened up.

The fact that South Seas>Nazjatar>Ny'alotha is already a complete three-act structure is even more reason not to try and cram in a faction war story.

Horde side: Zandalar seeks out the horde to help with G'huun. Things go haywire and Rastakhan dies (or not). Zandalar stops being a thorn in the side of the world and joins the horde after they have proven to be a major force.

if they already know about G'huun, that kind of ruins the thing about Rastakhan being blind to the threats, but I guess it could work if Talanji had already discovered hints or something.

So overall, it seems like the simplest answer is just for there to be a naga uprising, and the island kingdoms, who are naturally the most affected, reach out to the A&H for help. You could even have boats of refugees coming to the mainland.

[rhorle]

This expac suffered from being unfocused and trying to do too many things, so imagine it had just been the South Seas/Azshara/N'zoth xpac everyone was expecting. What plot hook would you have used to get us to Kul Tiras and Zandalar? In the current story we go there to recruit them and their navies for the war. So if there were no war, what are some reasons we might go there?

But that is what N'zoth seems to always have been about. A behind the scenes tentacles in everything type of plots. No focus but trying to corrupt a bunch of things to realize a grand plan. While they could have done a better job of tying it all together I don't think a different setting (no faction war would have changed much).

[kansor]

The point is, the two stories work more cleanly when split into their proper parts. The health of Azeroth is threatened when it gets stabbed by a giant sword, and the Azerite that leaks out sparks a worldwide war. That's story 1. Azeroth is threatened by the God of the Deep, who is served by a powerful naga queen who rules the oceans and wishes to free her master. When she succeeds, you must descend into his realm to stop him. That's story 2.

WOW expacs can have B-plots, but they don't work when there are multiple A-plots.

A portal has opened to the strange world of Outland. The evil Lich King commands armies of undead; go to his icy realm to stop him. A powerful dragon breaks free and wants to cause the apocalypse. The discovery of a new continent creates a resource war, but the evil spirits who dwell there drive the Warchief mad. An army of demons is invading the world, stop them and then attack their world in return.

With WOD there's a shift over time -- it starts with the Iron Horde, then segues into demons. The difference between that and BFA is that they flow into each other and never contradict or overpower each other. Garrosh tries to change history, but it turns out history would take the same route anyway. It forms a complete thought.

[rhorle]

WOW expacs can have B-plots, but they don't work when there are multiple A-plots.

There are not two A plots though. Azerite and N'zoth are the same plot. He was freed because of us collecting Azerite. Something that may not have been possible with out the health of Azeroth being threatened.

[kansor]

That was a really tenuous MacGuffin-based connection, and even so, there's a difference between events being connected and events forming a single united thought or theme.

[rhorle]

That was a really tenuous MacGuffin-based connection, and even so, there's a difference between events being connected and events forming a single united thought or theme.

But it is a single united theme. The fate of Azeroth. We get attacked by old god minions early on in the Heart chamber. Old gods are a them of Uldir. Old gods are a theme of Stormsong Valley. We are collecting azerite with out a clue that it was part of an old gods plan. We learn we were helping an Old God when we confront Azshara. And then we have to stop the Old God to save Azeroth.

The theme was to save Azeroth. We just didn't know who we were saving it from until the end. Just because you didn't like it doesn't make it a "macguffin".

[Sithalos]

It would take more than a story change to fix BfA.

[kansor]

It would take more than a story change to fix BfA.

Very true, but that's not what this thread is about.

But it is a single united theme. The fate of Azeroth. We get attacked by old god minions early on in the Heart chamber. Old gods are a them of Uldir. Old gods are a theme of Stormsong Valley. We are collecting azerite with out a clue that it was part of an old gods plan. We learn we were helping an Old God when we confront Azshara. And then we have to stop the Old God to save Azeroth.

And what does all that have to do with the faction war? These things are stitched together with tenuous threads and more to the point, together they oversprawl the limit of what a single xpac can manage. BFA is the proof of that.

Just because you didn't like it doesn't make it a "macguffin".

It totally was a macguffin and a highly hamfisted one at that. Again though, this thread is about, supposing that the faction war WERE cut, how would you put the plot of the xpac in motion.

[rhorle]

And what does all that have to do with the faction war? These things are stitched together with tenuous threads and more to the point, together they oversprawl the limit of what a single xpac can manage. BFA is the proof of that.

Because the Horde and Alliance were influenced to fight over Azerite to weaken and distract themselves? Because there was a B plot going on that was helping to drive the War (Sylvanas and her "goals")? It isn't just a coincidence that when N'zoth is revealed that the faction war stops. If we weren't fighting amongst ourselves we would have caught on to what N'zoth and his minions were doing far sooner.