So when will Blizzard stop giving players rental powers?

[msdos]

Bro the game already is hard for new players. Try actually talking to new players. Why people keep using that "it'll make the game too steep for new players" is complete nonsense. It already is.

[Logwyn]

And to think I'd be happy with just having each character be able to do herbing, mining, and skinning. I can do it for all these quests yet I can't in the real world.....

[kaminaris]

Oh so its aoe now. Thats aoe lists. While your first sim was clearly ST if you are not 390 geared that is.

Yeah, twist and turns to prove a point times 4-5 times now? I am gonna do the sim again with other gear in aoe next.

The moment you start reading with comprehension. I said AOE first time I mentioned TD.
Even then, 10-15% added to 40 does not equal 70% in legion.

It is a simple math. Stop being delusional and moving goalposts. Legion was pinnacle of borrowed power.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Yeah they sure stabilized it with those amazing passive proc Azerite Traits hey?

The reason Rental powers don't work is because the base specs they designed in Legion are garbage. They completely gutted everyone. Those specs only "worked" because of Legendaries, Set Bonuses and Artifacts.

Now that everyone has seen the full extent of how shit Legion Class Design is because Azerite failed to fill the gaping holes.

You can only hope the incompetent devs can fix this for Shadowlands. But then again - that's coming with TWO new rental systems.

But next expansion they don't have to balance around azerite traits and essences. Imagine if we all still had every ability ever used in WoW? You'd have 20 unique abilities at least. And if talent trees continued to be every 10 levels? That's called bloat. Rental abilities reduce bloat and make the game easier to reset.

[Niwes]

i miss that god old straight wow days, when investment was baked into the game instead systems. i miss tbc, wotlk, etc where gear was simple and all that fucked up systems where nonexisting and the grind was just cosmetic. gear not need systems. better invest time and money in a good game aka good story, classes, etc.

[Doffen]

The moment you start reading with comprehension. I said AOE first time I mentioned TD.
Even then, 10-15% added to 40 does not equal 70% in legion.

It is a simple math. Stop being delusional and moving goalposts. Legion was pinnacle of borrowed power.

Moving goalposts? Say the one who first show ST sim then use aoe corruption to prove another point.

AoE simmed showed 56% difference for me. Then I didn't include the cloak who will give us a main stat buff soon as well as a normal cloak would be 485 max. Add the additional damage from corrupted gear later on and azerite powers getting stronger per ilvl.

You are wrong unfortunately. BfA is the pinnacle of borrowed power. 4 vs 2 makes it so.

[DemonDays]

But next expansion they don't have to balance around azerite traits and essences. Imagine if we all still had every ability ever used in WoW? You'd have 20 unique abilities at least. And if talent trees continued to be every 10 levels? That's called bloat. Rental abilities reduce bloat and make the game easier to reset.

Did you read a single thing I said?

Rental systems can work. However, they can't be fixing an integral part of the class. They can't be filling a gaping hole in the Classes design.

This is where they went wrong. They designed absolutely terrible base specs with the intentional that the Artifact was PART of the spec. Take that away? A total shit show of design - Battle for Azeroth.


Think of Legion class design as a boat. A boat that has hundreds of holes in it and is sinking quite quickly. The boat can't do what it is intended design was. It can't float.

Think of the Artifact and Legendaries as patches that plugged all those holes up. Intentionally designed this way.

Now rip all those patches off and attempt to plug them with Azerite. A poorly designed system that wasn't able to make up for Set Bonuses, Azerite, Legendaries etc

Ship is sinking again because the base design of the ship is terrible.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Did you read a single thing I said?

Rental systems can work. However, they can't be fixing an integral part of the class. They can't be filling a gaping hole in the Classes design.

This is where they went wrong. They designed absolutely terrible base specs with the intentional that the Artifact was PART of the spec. Take that away? A total shit show of design - Battle for Azeroth.


Think of Legion class design as a boat. A boat that has hundreds of holes in it and is sinking quite quickly. The boat can't do what it is intended design was. It can't float.

Think of the Artifact and Legendaries as patches that plugged all those holes up. Intentionally designed this way.

Now rip all those patches off and attempt to plug them with Azerite. A poorly designed system that wasn't able to make up for Set Bonuses, Azerite, Legendaries etc

Ship is sinking again because the base design of the ship is terrible.

They can fix gaping holes in classes, as long as a new rental does each expac. The second it's removed, that's where the problem begins. You're just upset that it's not what you want. It works though (for most). When you change so much shit each expac, there's bound to be some mistakes. That's not a problem if they actually fix these mistakes pointed out in beta.

[PenguinChan]

Probably never, because it gives them that artificial 'up and down' balance that they've been doing since forever. However they've learned that they get bitten quite hard for pulling that demonology type balance. "Time for you to play other things than Demonology" type shit and purposefully making things weaker than the other specs by a mile.

Honestly what the rental powers should do is allow them to reach out and try different things for an expansion - and if it works well add it either as an option or baseline. Legion into BfA did this but they failed to realize that passives and other things on the artifact weapons contributed quite a lot to certain play styles too; while the power itself was so strong and so fun to use that using the other talents that were in that same row feels inferior... Or straight up bad knowing you had it baseline in Legion.

[kaminaris]

Moving goalposts? Say the one who first show ST sim then use aoe corruption to prove another point.

AoE simmed showed 56% difference for me. Then I didn't include the cloak who will give us a main stat buff soon as well as a normal cloak would be 485 max. Add the additional damage from corrupted gear later on and azerite powers getting stronger per ilvl.

You are wrong unfortunately. BfA is the pinnacle of borrowed power. 4 vs 2 makes it so.

Then use math yourself, it's not that hard to calculate how much corruption gives of borrowed power.

I am correct and you are wrong. Legion was pinnacle of borrowed power.

It is not 4v2. It is 25+ vs 11. Even a spec specific additional button was borrowed and blizz allowed some of classes to keep it as talents.
It was at this moment, they knew, they fucked up.

[kernel-wow]

So what are you without azerite armor, essences, corrupted gear and legendary cloak now then? A peon?

Maybe stop with the nonsense that Legion was worse then BfA when it comes to this. It's objectively worse in BfA because there are more rental gear and powers now than Legion.

On top of that. I just started a mage, and got to 120 2 days ago.

To be competitive. I now have to start a grind for the essences, and some rep for that matter, which will take me at least a month if not 2, so for that time window, I won't have a point in applying anywhere, as who is going to take me?

And then, read about the corruption system and do that on top of it. I haven't yet delved into any of the new stuff in 8.3. Legendary cloak included.

So basically, I got to 120, which took me around 2 weeks of casual gameplay(Around 2 hours a night, semi-afking and stuff) and now I have to work for another 2 months before I can even start considering getting into a raiding guild for a spot?

Oof.

Watched Preach's video about how 8.2 literally is a requirement before 8.3 and that's a yikes indeed. The azerite is coming from everywhere but the essences, can't skip those...

[MoanaLisa]

i miss that god old straight wow days, when investment was baked into the game instead systems. i miss tbc, wotlk, etc where gear was simple and all that fucked up systems where nonexisting and the grind was just cosmetic. gear not need systems. better invest time and money in a good game aka good story, classes, etc.

Theory crafting and spreadsheets gone wild. It's the same kind of thing that happens with feature bloat in non-game software. Maybe we don't agree on much but you're right about this.

[RemasteredClassic]

Seems like you all forgot that back in the day extra talents or existing talent upgrades mostly came from wearing raid gear sets which was also "rental powers" since a gear set was useless once a new tier raid was released. Blizz had to create multiple sets each with different talent buffs and/or abilities plus abilities that came from trinkets.

The current systems are not too bad, but not good enough either. I personally dislike the essence system because it feels too generic and too varied (too many ranks and different ways to get them with most of the easy ones being useless).

I would much rather we get the old systems back. It was a three in one reward: xmog, new abilities and a major gear upgrade. If that didnt feel rewarding enough, I don't know what would. Yes, it took forever to get a full set, but it sure felt great, especially in Legion where you could also get a legendary at any time. IMO Legion is WoW's best expansion minus the AP grind. That wasn't necessary at all and should never ever make a come back to the game. Horizontal progression like that should only exist in non-class/spec power related areas such as xmogs/cosmetics, mounts, and titles.

[Shaetha]

When are players going to figure out the game becomes a bloated mess if they don't trim things down with each expansion?

[VinceVega]

So hundreds of combination i have to sim with everything is better because it is not on gear?

I like, that every expansion you get something different you can play with. Which you maybe never see again.
Also the "every expansion something new" was more like: Every new set something new.

Keeping all of that would be way to bloated. Too much choice is not always good.

I like the talent trees as they are. Maybe one or two no lines and better balancing for some traits who are never used.

EDIT: I don't like Azerite gear, but they trivialized it now so who cares. Essences are a nice system. I really like it. I HATE the fact, that they make twinks impossible unless you have waaaaaaaaaay too much time. Hiding power behind reps should be accountwide. Once allright, twice just the worst

[Doffen]

Then use math yourself, it's not that hard to calculate how much corruption gives of borrowed power.

I am correct and you are wrong. Legion was pinnacle of borrowed power.

It is not 4v2. It is 25+ vs 11. Even a spec specific additional button was borrowed and blizz allowed some of classes to keep it as talents.
It was at this moment, they knew, they fucked up.

Still waiting for the 70% you took out from nowhere. And since you mention it, some specs got to keep their extra stuff. How many get to keep their focusing iris or other essence to use it SL? Zero.

So thanks for admitting it. How did the know they fucked it up when they made it worse in BfA? I just simmed with three top rank corrupted gear and the cloak at 15. 79% power. BfA wins in rental power.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

This is something they have always done. Be it tier gear, trinkets or any other power modifier or unique thing. The legendary rings, capes and neck are just more drawn out versions of this. With some upsides of things mattering longer and the down side of magnifying balance or grinding issues. As annoying as it might be to work on something for a long time hamstringing alts, new or returning players, getting gear you toss away with each tier isn't all that much better.

We are talking about the actual classes here, which only got changed in Legion and BFA. All legendaries before Legion simply made your character stronger, it didn't change or give any new spells at all. From classic to MoP the classes got more and more powerful each expansion. New stuff added without anything removed.

This "class design lasting one expansion" was something that started with WoD, with the class traits you got as you lvled from MoP max lvl to WoD max lvl. These traits were minor, but they all changed each class for the better, and the vast majority of them were removed when the Legion prepatch came, with some of them made baseline (when all should have stayed baseline).

Then Legion and BFA had major class changes through the the Artifact wep/Legiondaries and BFA through the Azerite gear and corruptions.

Class design should come from your actual class, and gear should just give power. WoD/Legion/BFA has been a total failure in this regard, as the classes themselves have been made into emptry shells that simply don't function properly without the "extra" stuff added during the expansion.

[Alvito]

We are talking about the actual classes here, which only got changed in Legion and BFA. All legendaries before Legion simply made your character stronger, it didn't change or give any new spells at all. From classic to MoP the classes got more and more powerful each expansion. New stuff added without anything removed.

This "class design lasting one expansion" was something that started with WoD, with the class traits you got as you lvled from MoP max lvl to WoD max lvl. These traits were minor, but they all changed each class for the better, and the vast majority of them were removed when the Legion prepatch came, with some of them made baseline (when all should have stayed baseline).

Then Legion and BFA had major class changes through the the Artifact wep/Legiondaries and BFA through the Azerite gear and corruptions.

Class design should come from your actual class, and gear should just give power. WoD/Legion/BFA has been a total failure in this regard, as the classes themselves have been made into emptry shells that simply don't function properly without the "extra" stuff added during the expansion.

This is the same thing as all the on use items and set bonuses we have gotten in the past though. Now they have just gone deeper down that rabbit hole. In some ways it is better allowing them to do more since you spend more time on it and give you things to earn and work towards. In others it is so, so much worse, leaving people resistant to playing alts, feeling left behind or stuck in one of the worst versions of the gearing cycle we have seen in long time.

[tangers58]

Artifacts, Azerite, Essences, Corruption.

All these powers came for an expansion and then got taken away with a few "player-favorite" traits implemented into the classes' core, and leaving us with the feeling of bland class depth.

They replace one another, buy the feeling of "class complexity" but sometimes (especially in BFA and 8.2/8.3) they are so powerful, that it makes me feel like im playing not my class, but the rental power Blizzard gave me for two years.

Can we just get, i dont know, the big pool of talents, PvE/PvP/Legendary/Essences/Corruptions combined, like, 80+ talents for each class that could be unlocked 1 per level?

Then the player can choose the set of ~10 talents they pick from the unlocked pool. On the cap they will get full variety of PvP/PvE combinations they can use for PvE and PvP content.

Someone would mention the balance, but its essentially the same pool we have now, but combined, without split on PvP and PvE. Tune the numbers and we will be fine. Class balance isnt perfect anyway.

Just stop giving us toys and then taking them from us and replacing with another (as practice tells - way worse) toys.

Not anytime soon. With Activision forcing cutbacks you are just going to see whatever is quick and easy (and above all cheap) to reskin and call it "new". If that wasn't obvious before 8.3 it certainly is with our "new" zones

[Tantaburs]

Still waiting for the 70% you took out from nowhere. And since you mention it, some specs got to keep their extra stuff. How many get to keep their focusing iris or other essence to use it SL? Zero.

So thanks for admitting it. How did the know they fucked it up when they made it worse in BfA? I just simmed with three top rank corrupted gear and the cloak at 15. 79% power. BfA wins in rental power.

Do you see the irony in saying you don't have a source for the 70% number while then yourself using an uncited number to prove your own point.

Both of you are really bad at arguing and proving a point.

The average dps/corruption for classes according to bloodmallet is ~200 max cloak resistance and one nnew essence is 60 so assuming a goal of 39 net corruption you end up with 99 total corruption 99*200 = 20k dps from BiS corruption though its worth noting that most people won't ever have BiS corruption and break points make it so that 99 points of your best corruption isn't a realistic metric.

The 4 vs 2 argument is entirely void of reasoning. I assumes that the number of systems is the important factor and not the scale of the systems themselves. but even then its not the right number of systems

BFA has Azerite, Essences, Corruption, Cloak proc I guess if you want to say that maybe Im missing one

Legion had Legendaries, Artifacts, Tier Sets, Crucible (which I would count if you are counting cloak proc) and again I might be missing something here as well.