Iowa Caucus 2020 - MegaThread

[cubby]

Except "candidate cant win" is bullshit if they won the primaries that means the people like him or her and want to vote for them. The fact that DNC leadership doesnt like him or her doesnt mean they cant win. It means that while not illegal to replace them with the candidate leadership wants, its unethical and pisses off the voters who will be voting, and makes the primary elections a worthless farce, and that why people wont vote for someone chosen for them to vote for. Why even have primary elections? Just let the party leadership pick the candidates and lets just skip to the general election

And them not liking them doesn't mean that. The party doesn't like Bernie for a host of legitimate reasons, not the least of which is that he shits all over the party when it's not time to run for President again.

Also, the party doesn't like him because they feel he can't win.

[Blur4stuff]

are moderates not people?

moderates need the same thing progressives do

[cubby]

This is the same shaming that rally MAGA Hats in 2016. You can't just shame people to your side or expect them to see the 'bigger moral' picture. Especially when so much energy is spent tell them their shit, their views are shit, every thing they touch is shit, and their only saving grace is to follow you. You could be factually right but that kind of rhetoric wins no support, putting people in an 'well watch me really turn this into a shitshow' mentality.

It's a good thing the conversation didn't start out with more reasonable dialogue and persuasion. When one side gets irrational (some of bernie's peeps) us responding to it with stronger arguments is normal.

Read your last sentence. The irrationality comes from them, not the people pointing it out. They are literally choosing to burn the world down because their feelings got hurt. AFTER we tried rational arguments with soft words.

[GreenJesus]

I'm confused.. The democratic primary shows 62% reported with barely even 1500 total votes.. I guess the big boi districts haven't reported yet? Tthe Republican primary for Iowa shows trump had 31k votes.. Did that many people really show up to vote for Trump in the repub caucus even though he was guaranteed already?

[JohnBrown1917]

And them not liking them doesn't mean that. The party doesn't like Bernie for a host of legitimate reasons, not the least of which is that he shits all over the party when it's not time to run for President again.

Also, the party doesn't like him because they feel he can't win.

They don't like him not because they feel he cannot win, but because of policies. The fact that this so hard to see for some people baffles me. Right-wing dems have always been on the side of the ultra-rich, how this is hard to get... I don't get.

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It's a good thing the conversation didn't start out with more reasonable dialogue and persuasion. When one side gets irrational (some of bernie's peeps) us responding to it with stronger arguments is normal.

Read your last sentence. The irrationality comes from them, not the people pointing it out. They are literally choosing to burn the world down because their feelings got hurt. AFTER we tried rational arguments with soft words.

Or maybe you just can't accept that a lot of people don't like conservatives that deny them living wages and healthcare.

[kaelleria]

I'm confused.. The democratic primary shows 62% reported with barely even 1500 total votes.. I guess the big boi districts haven't reported yet? Tthe Republican primary for Iowa shows trump had 31k votes.. Did that many people really show up to vote for Trump in the repub caucus even though he was guaranteed already?

No there's over 110k votes already reporting... Look for around 180k total votes.

[PACOX]

It's a good thing the conversation didn't start out with more reasonable dialogue and persuasion. When one side gets irrational (some of bernie's peeps) us responding to it with stronger arguments is normal.

Read your last sentence. The irrationality comes from them, not the people pointing it out. They are literally choosing to burn the world down because their feelings got hurt. AFTER we tried rational arguments with soft words.

Maybe the argument is not as rational to them as you think? I literally work with people who can't help irrational thoughts or behavior. It doesn't matter how 'right' you might be. Shaming and exert a god complex is just meeting the irrational with more irrationality.

Or I wrong that shaming and assuming people will just appeal to 'higher sensibilities' hasn't worked?

[beanman12345]

It's a good thing the conversation didn't start out with more reasonable dialogue and persuasion. When one side gets irrational (some of bernie's peeps) us responding to it with stronger arguments is normal.

Read your last sentence. The irrationality comes from them, not the people pointing it out. They are literally choosing to burn the world down because their feelings got hurt. AFTER we tried rational arguments with soft words.

Yes it comes from people like me, not like people with an over valued sense of self worth like @ skroe shaming me for supporting someone in a primary and voting D in the general election. It's people like me. As I said, just like trump ya'll unable to take responsibility for anything.

[Grapemask]

That right there is a massive problem with the party (also parallels Pete's problem with black voters in general).
The sense that people 'owe' you votes and should just fall in line and be happy with whatever you feel so kind to offer. That right there will make Nov 4th a very predictable day if it keeps up.

I think the left in general is relying too much on the "get Trump out" vote to get everyone in line. And to the end of "get Trump out," they'll sacrifice taking the country in the most ideal direction in order to simply have the best shot at taking it in the "not Trump" direction.

But Trump has an expiration date. He's out in 2024 at the latest no matter what happens here. Yeah, there's fear mongering that he could shred our constitutions in this way or that and stay in. But that's being silly. Yeah, he'll put more kids in cages, yeah, he'll do more stupid shit that will make our country that much shittier while the economy continues to follow Obama's trend for the middle-to-upper classes. But so will the next Republican. Because this is what their party does. Trump screamed build a wall because Republicans in general were screaming build a wall in the election before that. All Trump does is say the Republican's quiet things out loud.

So sure, Trump's a crazy fuck and we need to get rid of him. But there's going to be a crazy fuck every 4 years. If all we're doing is holding the fort down between crazy fucks instead of actively moving in the other direction, we're only slowing down our inevitable descent into crazy fuckery. I won't vote for Trump or third party because I'm not an idiot, but if Democrats want me to show up to vote instead of enjoy my night at home, they need to put up a candidate that's going to try to fix our fundamental problems instead of hand-ring about how he or she will just have to maintain the status quo. I'd rather try and fail miserably, even if it expedites our trip to ruin, than sit here another day tolerating a country where my wife doesn't get a rabies vaccine after an animal attack because it costs too much, while my co-workers from countries where people don't have toilets still get free treatment for everything under the sun when they go back home.

[JohnBrown1917]

Yes it comes from people like me, not like people with an over valued sense of self worth like @ skroe shaming me for supporting someone in a primary and voting D in the general election. It's people like me. As I said, just like trump ya'll unable to take responsibility for anything.

It seems they have deluded themselves into thinking that blue dog conservatism is the only rational ideology.. or whatever the fuck it is about.

[GreenJesus]

And them not liking them doesn't mean that. The party doesn't like Bernie for a host of legitimate reasons, not the least of which is that he shits all over the party when it's not time to run for President again.

Also, the party doesn't like him because they feel he can't win.

The establishment doesn't like Bernie because he better represents the people and they don't want to admit that.

[Elegiac]

Just gonna point out to the Bernie Bro’s here that being receptive to conspiracy theories creates an avenue for you to be exploited by authoritarians.

Like I said. Trumpism, but left wing. And I agree that the DNC should refuse to seat Bernie in the party after this election should he not gain the nomination.

[Elegiac]

The establishment doesn't like Bernie because he better represents the people and they don't want to admit that.

Which is why he didn’t have the votes to win the nomination, right?

And also why Sanders’ supporters insisted on rule changes to benefit them. Because their popular support is so strong that they need training wheels from the DNC.

[cubby]

They don't like him not because they feel he cannot win, but because of policies. The fact that this so hard to see for some people baffles me. Right-wing dems have always been on the side of the ultra-rich, how this is hard to get... I don't get.

You sure spend a lot of time not understanding your own positions. Interesting. Not really surprising because of the shocking amount of time you lie about other forum posters positions. Like mine, for example. You've gotten my documented position wrong each and every time you've responded to me. But please, do go on misrepresenting positions in order to sow disorder, which seems to be your own goal.

TOr maybe you just can't accept that a lot of people don't like conservatives that deny them living wages and healthcare.

Awwwww, look at you, being wrong again (and again and again and again). Maybe try reading instead of projecting?

[JohnBrown1917]

I mean besides the self avowed Socialist.

Calling yourself one does not make somebody a socialist. His policies are social democratic at best.

[cubby]

Maybe the argument is not as rational to them as you think? I literally work with people who can't help irrational thoughts or behavior. It doesn't matter how 'right' you might be. Shaming and exert a god complex is just meeting the irrational with more irrationality.

Or I wrong that shaming and assuming people will just appeal to 'higher sensibilities' hasn't worked?

I hope you realize that your point above just bolsters my position. They are either logical and rational thinking, and will therefore be persuaded by those kinds of arguments (vote for your candidate, but unite behind the nominee - because defeating Trump is our primary goal) or are too far gone and "can't help irrational thoughts or behavior".

I'm surprised you're coming to my defense, but it's appreciated. Thank you.

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Yes it comes from people like me, not like people with an over valued sense of self worth like @ skroe shaming me for supporting someone in a primary and voting D in the general election. It's people like me. As I said, just like trump ya'll unable to take responsibility for anything.

Me asking for party unity to defeat Trump makes me just like Trump in not taking responsibility for anything? Maybe take a moment and rethink that position a bit. Remember, I'm the one arguing for party unity to defeat Trump. You're arguing what again?

[nonameelf]

You all realize there's going to be a Republican running for president in every single election right? It's not like you beat Trump and Republicans magically disappear.

[Elegiac]

You all realize there's going to be a Republican running for president in every single election right? It's not like you beat Trump and Republicans magically disappear.

The Bernie or Bust crowd falls into that category of American whose political memory is limited to the last electoral cycle, clearly.

[beanman12345]

Me asking for party unity to defeat Trump makes me just like Trump in not taking responsibility for anything? Maybe take a moment and rethink that position a bit. Remember, I'm the one arguing for party unity to defeat Trump. You're arguing what again?

I'm arguing that your doing a shit job at arguing for unity.

[Fugus]

Yes, I'm using what you say against you. It's how good argumentation works. However, let's put that aside and take a step forward:

I agree with your position, more so about voting for the nominee, whomever it might be. I think we can agree on that. I can also agree that blatant name calling isn't going to be productive in getting people to agree on a position of unity.

How would you try to convince people like Fungus and others?

Dude, you don't have to get me to agree on anything here. So long as the elections are actually fair without them trying to put their fingers on the scale they are fine.

The fact that asking for a fair election is such a problem should be the problem itself.