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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    First reply is 100% accurate yet there's 3 pages of this, why?
    Because the first reply has nothing to do with the content of the OP (as those of us who read it in its entirity would know).

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    What do you do ingame during that time? Achievements, pets, questing, etc?
    Fight with others to get a higher rank on https://www.dataforazeroth.com/leade...mpletion-score So yeah I do everything you said +transmog, recipes, toys, mounts. I'm doing ~45 love rocket runs a day as well so I'm struggling just to keep my rank since I'm not getting much new stuff.
    Last edited by Drusin; 2020-02-12 at 08:45 AM.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    I disagree. If I played wow regularly, 30 min a day and all I did was do a coupe of quests and a pet battle while slowly leveling a character, That would be pretty casual.
    Nope. Regular means not casual. It doesn't mean hardcore either.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  4. #64
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    I think there is 2 camps for this casual vs hardcore topic. The first camp of people are like OP and think that logging in to do a thing for 10 days straight is hardcore or having to work towards achieving a thing is too hardcore. The other camp are the people that determine what Hardcore is depending on the difficulty of the content, brain dead content is casual and the actual difficult content that requires skill and prep work is Hardcore. At the end of the day this was a complete waste of a thread because it will mean different things to diff people.
    Last edited by Atraxxa; 2020-02-11 at 03:32 PM.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Nope. Regular means not casual. It doesn't mean hardcore either.
    Casual can mean regular, it can mean infrequent. I think it is really defined by how one goes about the game. If I play regularly for a small amount of time just having fun not caring about being efficient, meters, or bis and all that, I'm extremely casual. At the same time I could play 2 nights a week for 2 hours a night be super serious, log everything, research everything and work towards max efficiency I would be totally a hardcore player eventhough I play infrequent and less than my casual counterpart.

  6. #66
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Because the first reply has nothing to do with the content of the OP (as those of us who read it in its entirity would know).
    First paragraph of the OP is fundamentally incorrect. He makes a parallele between addiction and the game "requiring" players to log in every day. First of all, the AP grind is soft capped at 75 and becomes completely useless beyond 80. I work full time, do other stuff in life, and I'm already there without ever farming islands, I'm expecting the rest of the world to be there too because it's easy. So essentially the AP grind is already over for BfA. This makes this entire paragraph obsolete.

    The second paragraph starts with this:
    There is nothing casual about having to repeat the same content in order to get the best reward.
    Being casual is about playing a little, it literally does not matter what you achieve of what your goals are. Thinking that the whole game is EXCLUSIVELY about getting the BiS items is wrong from the get go. Some people want that, some people don't care as much. So the premice is based in the biased perception of the OP and disregards how casuals really play, assuming they all cry about not being able to get BiS items when in fact most of them don't care, they log on to have fun for a bit and not really get upset about how or when they'll get the best items. The chase for BiS and the casual attitude are unrelated and trying to force both together is a mistake the OP did while building this argument.
    He then follows up with the same incorrect point from the first paragraph that is only valid when you assume all WoW players are mindless drones. Maybe they are. But in my mind people are human beings capable of making decisions for themselves and if the game becomes too shitty/boring/repetitive they will just quit. People who still enjoy it will keep playing, for raid progression, or pvp, or they enjoy M+, whatever the reason is, have fun keep playing, no more fun then quit. The idea that the game has an "addictive" design made only to appeal to hardcore gamers who need their daily fix is a strawman. Lots of people logged on daily long before any of this content was in the game, and a big part of the population complained about not having much to do and begged Blizzard to add content they could do everyday. It's very possible that what we have now is just the result of this begging. Keep in mind, every single bit of content in the game right now is OPTIONAL. No one NEEDS to do everything every single day this is absolutely wrong and idiotic to believe. The idea of "falling behind" comes from jealousy of seeing other people ahead. People can get ahead by many different means, sometimes pure skill, sometimes luck, or time investment. The idea that doing everything everyday will keep you at the top is once agani incorrect and the OP's argument relies on that to feel validated. It's not valid.

    The third paragraph is a blog post about the OP's opinion concerning the current state of the game and how he prefered the way it was back in the day. Nothing he says is a valuable point towards his argument, rather makes me believe this is a "vanilla was better than retail" thread disguised in a wall of text literally not worth reading. On top of that he completely ignores the fact that people have different tastes, making the incredibly stupid assumption that everyone who plays WoW right now HAS TO BE mentally ill and basically brainwashed by "addictive content design" or some shit. As if it was impossible for people to be done with the repetitive daily farming, happy to just progress in a raid with friends. OP is nothing but a close minded self centered clown trying to push his narrative through bad argumentative points in a giant wall of text to make it seem like he really thought this through when in fact he's grasping at straws.


    The first reply was correct, that's all the casual vs hardcore terms really mean. The OP is an opinionated blog post trying to pass as an argument.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Nope. Regular means not casual. It doesn't mean hardcore either.
    You can invent a million words to describe people in the [casual ----------------- hardcore] spectrum. Doesn't matter what you call it, the only defining factor is time played, nothing else. Not skills, not type of content played, nothing, only time.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    There is no "have to" in following that routine though.

    And no, they don't encourage you to log in every day. What they do encourage is that you generally complete your emissary quests. That means 10-12 world quests every 3 days, leaving it up to you to decide how you want to manage that. Even if you're a player who only logs on twice a week and does all your available emissaries, that's less than 2 hours a week to still remain reasonably effective (clearing 6/7 of the available emissaries)
    You don't have to do that as well. I'ma mythic raider and we mostly clear all mythic bosses with like 7-9h a week. And I don't do emissaries, I don't do world quests at all. Just 3xM islands in 15 minutes and done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Sorry, but it's utterly absurd to suggest that, by design, the WQ and AP systems encourage anyone to do every single world quest or risk falling behind. If you analyse the design that's pretty much the complete opposite of what it's encouraging.
    Of course it isn't. Im at 77 now on my main, done 3 M bosses week ago, progressing 4th and we have people with even less neck level. Nobody gives a flying fuck.
    We just play and not do shit we don't like.

    And I agree with rest of the post.

    The only difference imo is that you need 1x M +15 dung and 3xM islands to stay competetive and get best gear. So 75 minutes a week. WQ are irrelevant.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    You act like they are unwell simply because they enjoy a different aspect of the game than you do. Just because someone needs to raid or run keys to enjoy this game, doesnt mean they need to "get better".

    Now, on the other hand, someone who thinks others cant enjoy the game for reasons they dont share with you, maybe you're the one who needs to get better.

    I'm not sure how you could get this from my post unless you skipped everything above the part that you bolded.

    My point was that you do not have to do any of those things to enjoy the game, but if you are saying that "I MUST BE A MYTHIC RAIDER TO ENJOY WOW" then yes, you will have to raise your skill level and devote more time in order to do so.

    Honestly i'm not sure how you missed my point so thoroughly unless that was your intention.

  9. #69
    Less than a week into this patch i got my 4th essence slot. After that all ap once again became irrelevant as did world Quests. 1 week later and i got the new essence r3.

    World quests really are irrelevant for the vast majority of the expansions lifetime.

    Some patches the grind takes a little longer, nazjatar benthic items took around 3-5 weeks to fix. Doing a bunch of world for 1-4 weeks per patch isnt particularly hardcore. It definetly doesnt become an infinite grind, you got clear goals along the way. Essence slots, benthic item upgrades, flying, UNlocks 5 ilvl on your azerite armor... Its not infinite at all. And for a couple of months we even had our necks capped on level. There was litterarly nothing you could get that was of any use from worldQuests at that point.

    I played classic for 4 months and came back not having missed a single thing. Thats 4 months of nothing but raidlogging once a week to clear mythic then logging off to play classic for the rest of the time. Not even doing weekly m+.
    I played the Path of exile expansion for a month after that, again only spending the minimum 3 hours ish it took to clear eternal palace weekly.

    Only now, in january, roughly 7 months after the release of nazjatar/mechagon/eternal palace is there again something to do to increase your power in the world outside of raiding. And it takes roughly 2 weeks to get your new essence throu the DAILYS! YES WE GOT FUCKING DAILYS NOW....... as if it fucking mattered if it was dailys or world quests... that was the most idiotic part of OP's argument.

    The only infinite grind is in OP's head. There is either a hard cap or theres a point at wich grinding further yields so small reward/time that it becomes irrelevant.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  10. #70
    What a very biased way to see how it is. Just because you think it sucks doesn't mean "socially awkard" people like you label it are the people that love to play WoW. In my guild we have all sorts of people, and we are also both very social. Some are social persons, some are not. To draw a conclusion is silly when you can't back that up, and especially when we see something else in game. The people that play the game haven't changed much during the years, so it would be the same "addicted" people that plays it now compared to old days.

    And if we are to compare the grind and the need to log in, it was worse the first 4-8 years of WOW because back then you had to log in every day for a lot longer than what you have to do now to keep up. Especially when it comes to those who raid. Even in WotLK it was kinda like that, all the way up to WoD actually. MoP you had to log in to do dailies whenever a new set came in, you "had" to do them. There is really no big difference. In BfA 99% of the player base don't have to feel that they have to log in because they really don't need to. After the first month in each patch you are effectively done. Legion was more grindy for 2/3 of the expansion, I didn't see any shift in who played then. It is the same kind of people. Are most of us addicted?

    I think you miss the point entirely, and that's because you don't like it anymore, which is pretty clear reading your posts the two last years. Maybe you are the target audience in the post you made? And this is a serious question.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-02-11 at 05:47 PM.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Casual can mean regular.
    No. Casual means no schedule, therefore not regular. You can play for 5 minutes a day, every day from 9:00pm to 9:05pm - you are not casual. You are not hardcore either. Hardcore is someone who plays regularly and a lot. Mythic raiders who play a lot during progress and then go slow - they are not hardcore. People who comes from work straight into the game grinding AP, clearing all WQ and other activities for the day till 2AM - every fucking day - and then play most of the weekends doing the same - these people are hardcore. Extremely hardcore.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    First paragraph of the OP is fundamentally incorrect. He makes a parallele between addiction and the game "requiring" players to log in every day. First of all, the AP grind is soft capped at 75 and becomes completely useless beyond 80. I work full time, do other stuff in life, and I'm already there without ever farming islands, I'm expecting the rest of the world to be there too because it's easy. So essentially the AP grind is already over for BfA. This makes this entire paragraph obsolete.
    "Soft capped" at 75 and yet 3% stamina gain is completely mandatory for mythic raiding because a lot of mechanics do enough damage to nearly instagib you and every little counts. And many specs continue to benefit from more potent essences beyond 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No. Casual means no schedule, therefore not regular. You can play for 5 minutes a day, every day from 9:00pm to 9:05pm - you are not casual. You are not hardcore either. Hardcore is someone who plays regularly and a lot. Mythic raiders who play a lot during progress and then go slow - they are not hardcore. People who comes from work straight into the game grinding AP, clearing all WQ and other activities for the day till 2AM - every fucking day - and then play most of the weekends doing the same - these people are hardcore. Extremely hardcore.
    Thanks for grasping the point of my original post. People don't realize that content isn't inherently casual or hardcore - it's how you approach it that counts. Unfortunately it's a lot easier to design content for people who are satisfied doing the same thing every day on autopilot with no variety or progressing difficulty. There's a reason "endless runners" are extremely popular on mobile devices. People eat up endless repeatable candy dropping from the sky for minuscule gains like a crack addict trying to snort a cocaine trail in record time.
    Last edited by Wilfire; 2020-02-11 at 05:55 PM.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You don't have to do that as well. I'ma mythic raider and we mostly clear all mythic bosses with like 7-9h a week. And I don't do emissaries, I don't do world quests at all. Just 3xM islands in 15 minutes and done.


    Of course it isn't. Im at 77 now on my main, done 3 M bosses week ago, progressing 4th and we have people with even less neck level. Nobody gives a flying fuck.
    We just play and not do shit we don't like.

    And I agree with rest of the post.

    The only difference imo is that you need 1x M +15 dung and 3xM islands to stay competetive and get best gear. So 75 minutes a week. WQ are irrelevant.
    This. And what the poster you quoted. This is how it is for, dare I say it, most of the player base.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-02-11 at 07:54 PM.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    This. And the thing quy you quoted. This is how it is for, dare I say it, most of the player base.
    Good for him that they're lagging behind the curve and clearing bosses that don't have hard dps / healing / HP checks. For the rest of us having 1% more dps, healing or HP is the difference between killing a boss and wiping so we have to keep clearing WQs, visions and farming m+ to progress.

  15. #75
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    "Soft capped" at 75 and yet 3% stamina gain is completely mandatory for mythic raiding because a lot of mechanics do enough damage to nearly instagib you and every little counts. And many specs continue to benefit from more potent essences beyond 80.
    What are you talking about?
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No. Casual means no schedule, therefore not regular. You can play for 5 minutes a day, every day from 9:00pm to 9:05pm - you are not casual. You are not hardcore either. Hardcore is someone who plays regularly and a lot. Mythic raiders who play a lot during progress and then go slow - they are not hardcore. People who comes from work straight into the game grinding AP, clearing all WQ and other activities for the day till 2AM - every fucking day - and then play most of the weekends doing the same - these people are hardcore. Extremely hardcore.
    Then we disagree. one can be casual and play at the same times due to that is when free time is available.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    To me it's all time based with how much one invests into the game. You can have a hardcore scrub that plays 24/7 or a casual Mythic raider that only plays a few hours a week.
    I have always been on board with this. Someone who plays 10 hours a day and has 100 alts is way more hardcore than someone who plays 1 character and and raids and plays 6-8 hours a week.
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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Then we disagree. one can be casual and play at the same times due to that is when free time is available.
    No, you disagree. Don't we this. If you play regularly - you are not casual. If you play a lot as well - you are hardcore. If you play CASUALLY (without commitment or permanence; occasionally or irregularly) - you are a casual, no matter how much time you spend in one session. It doesn't matter why you play casually be it your general approach to gaming - or life obstacles. Irrelevant.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    "Soft capped" at 75 and yet 3% stamina gain is completely mandatory for mythic raiding because a lot of mechanics do enough damage to nearly instagib you and every little counts. And many specs continue to benefit from more potent essences beyond 80.
    Bullshit. It's mandatory for World First raiders and mayyybe the top 100, maximum. We're usually circling around top 4-500 (which already makes us the 1% of the playerbase in and of itself, by the by) and the guild does not demand level 80 neck even if it did demand level 75 when Mythic opened. We're 5/12 on a two raids/week schedule and doing well enough. Ny'alotha doesn't actually have that many oneshot mechanics anyway, unless you choose to just /dance in Vexiona's breath or something.

    And no spec gains anything significant from 6 secondary stats and 3 primary stats per neck level. That's just nonsense, you need something like 6 neck levels to even equal the benefit of a single socket, and being 6 levels ahead of the AP curve requires stupidly insane amounts of grinding. The grind past 80 is nigh useless to all but the biggest parsing whores. It's never going to hold anyone back from killing any boss in Mythic, even N'zoth.

  20. #80
    Your conclusion may be right, but your arguments are flawed.
    For example titanforging. You're saying "who does this appeal to"? There are two aspects here:
    - getting a titanforged item while doing your usual activities (like raiding)
    - actually going out of your way to farm them
    The first group usually enjoys getting upgrades, because they don't feel the need at all to go out of their way to get them. These people aren't high end raiders, the high end raiders DO feel the need to do more to get them.
    The second group is the group who DOES farm them, they're not the casuals. These people actually HATE this feature and want it removed. These are your abnormal people - those who hate it, but keep doing it regardless - mostly because the big guilds do it so everyone who aspires at high end raiding feels compelled to do it

    What you're suggesting is that a group exists that goes out of their way to get titanforges and loves it. I doubt there's many like this. People who argue FOR are poeple who don't feel compelled to do anything, for them it's just a bonus. People who argue against are those who DO the repetitve crap and hate it.
    So I ask - who's the more normal group? The ones who enjoy random upgrades by not doing anything special or the ones who moan and complain about having to do a lot of stuff they hate to be competitive.
    Just think - if you got a present out of nowhere from time to time, wouldn't you feel happy? This is normal. Especially since that present helps with your current activities.
    And just like it, wouldn't you feel miserable if from time to time someone got a bonus for doing overtime while you do the same overtime but get nothing? A normal person would probably NOT do the overtime unless they were really really strapped for cash and, most importantly, their time was not as valuable to them.

    Either way, the feature does NOT appeal to those who actually do the chores. It appeals to those who don't - and these, these are your casuals. I'm sure there will be someone who'll say "I am a casual but I hate titanforging". No. You're not a casual if you actually care about your gear or your dps. If you compare yourself to someone else, you're not a casual - that's what makes a difference. A casual plays for fun and doesn't care that you got a better weapon. Also, if you talk about "BiS", you're not a casual, mkay.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2020-02-11 at 09:05 PM.

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