BWL world first progression thread

[Skulltaker]

I cleared it 15 years ago as well. It's easy to say it's been done before and it's not as complex as retails raids, so its easy. But you still gotta get positioning right. Threat is a major mechanic in classic that is all but non existent in retail. And you have to get 40 ppl on the same page.

I'm not pretending it's hard. I'm just stating that saying that the guilds in the best gear who have 1000s of hours of practice managed to beat it in 43 minutes, doesmt matter to the average classic raider.

Are you currently raiding in classic?

No, I'm not playing WoW at all at the moment. I did play classic until lvl 60, found a pug for molten core, cleared it in 2 hours 1 month into launch and thought yeah, that's about as hard as it gets.

The last raid I actively played was Siege of Boralus. Lost interest in retail around a year ago, give or take a few months.

And no. Positioning in classic is laughable compared to modern raids. Take G'huun or Jaina as an example. Naxx maybe had something akin to the need for proper positioning, but for the majority of bosses in classic it came down to form a camp, occasionally run out of the camp with a debuff, don't stand in front of the boss, don't tickle the dragons fanny because of the tail swipes. Don't aggro additional mobs, which used to be more difficult back then due to lagg and higher aggro ranges.

Getting 40 people on the same page never felt that challenging to me. That being said, we were entirely 20 years or older in our raid back then.

Again. There is no shame in enjoying a simple game. But please don't pretend it isn't laughably easy, compared to other MMOs of that time or modern WoW. That being said, just because something is harder doesn't mean it is better. There are a few aspects about Classic I'd like to see return to retail. Raid difficulty, long-winded attunement quests and other time sinks are not part of it, though.

The 'average' classic raider is an incredibly uninformative term. If the 'average' classic raider cannot clear BWL anytime soon, it means one of two things. A, they had the good sense not to sink a disproportionate amount of time into gearing their character and looking up the handfull of mechanics that are required to clear BWL, (or had terrible loot luck), or B) they suck. Because that's what it boils down to.

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There are a huge factor in Classic that makes everything dead easy - experience.

We know EVERY fight, and how to do it. NOTHING is a surprise. NO raid will be hard in Classic, there's no challenge in Classic, just the pure joy from an actual World MMORPG.

Also, all top guilds are stacking two classes; warrior and rogues to do insane amounts of dps. This didn't happen back in Vanilla, we brought the people we had. (Well, top guilds might have done this? Not sure).

Classic is a cakewalk, and I (and many others) love it.

See, this is a healthy attitude. Admit that it is fucking easy, and still enjoy it. Good for you!

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Our guild couldn't beat Flamegor the damage on the tanks was pretty insane.

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Go ahead and do the same. My guild is above casual, and we couldn't get past the 4th boss


Retail babies have some serious mental problems. Surely you can clear the raid in 42 minutes if you have a super optimal raid comp and gear, but that's not the case for most people. We clear MC in an hour and a half, and couldn't get past the 4th boss last night, in 3 hours. We're having fun while you complain here.

kisses

If you have trouble with the damage on your tanks you're casuals, because otherwise your tanks would be properly geared for the encounter. Either that, or unlucky with gear.

Also, really, you couldn't get past Flamegor? I think I'll have to revise my casual statement, Pugs are doing better than you are...

[Satelliteyears0o]

Yeah, it will take 4-5 days... counting from now.

yet it happened in only 42 minutes..... 42 MINUTES! Classic too hard guys.

[Castration]

What the hell is a “required” thread? Lol.

One that has meaning and is not pointless. "Lol".

Also, Classic is not Vanilla, not sure why people are comparing it for this.

[ellieg]

No, I'm not playing WoW at all at the moment. I did play classic until lvl 60, found a pug for molten core, cleared it in 2 hours 1 month into launch and thought yeah, that's about as hard as it gets.

The last raid I actively played was Siege of Boralus. Lost interest in retail around a year ago, give or take a few months.

And no. Positioning in classic is laughable compared to modern raids. Take G'huun or Jaina as an example. Naxx maybe had something akin to the need for proper positioning, but for the majority of bosses in classic it came down to form a camp, occasionally run out of the camp with a debuff, don't stand in front of the boss, don't tickle the dragons fanny because of the tail swipes. Don't aggro additional mobs, which used to be more difficult back then due to lagg and higher aggro ranges.

Getting 40 people on the same page never felt that challenging to me. That being said, we were entirely 20 years or older in our raid back then.

Again. There is no shame in enjoying a simple game. But please don't pretend it isn't laughably easy, compared to other MMOs of that time or modern WoW. That being said, just because something is harder doesn't mean it is better. There are a few aspects about Classic I'd like to see return to retail. Raid difficulty, long-winded attunement quests and other time sinks are not part of it, though.

The 'average' classic raider is an incredibly uninformative term. If the 'average' classic raider cannot clear BWL anytime soon, it means one of two things. A, they had the good sense not to sink a disproportionate amount of time into gearing their character and looking up the handfull of mechanics that are required to clear BWL, (or had terrible loot luck), or B) they suck. Because that's what it boils down to.

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See, this is a healthy attitude. Admit that it is fucking easy, and still enjoy it. Good for you!

So you havent done bwl in classic (not vanilla) but felt the need to comment how easy it was. I mean after the superbowl I go on forums and tell everyone how stupid the team was for passing the ball instead of running it. I tell ppl that sub 3 hour marathons are easy because ppl have been doing it for years and if you cant you suck. Doesnt matter that I personally havent run one, because ppl that have been training for years did it under 3 hrs so it is super easy. This is what you sound like lol.

I never said classic was hard. I raided mythic in retail every alternating xpac but stopped after legion. I know the mechanical differences. But bwl is harder than mc. The average guild will probably not clear it until next week depending on how many hours they spend this week. The average guild doesnt care that top guilds cleared it in 43 minutes. It's not that they suck or are undergeared, any new raid content is still gonna take a bit of time for newer teams to learn how THEIR guild does it. Watching vids is easy, but executing the strat is gonna have a few hiccups.

[Alphatorg]

There is no complexity in retail specs rofl there wasn't in vanilla either. Maybe fire mage but outside the tricks you can do on fire mage there is very low complexity if you can play one class in retail to it's maximum you can play others just as well. You want to talk about specs with depth we need to go back to MoP hell WoD had more depth than retail.

I wouldn't say wow specs, at any point, were rocket science, but there is still a huge difference between retail and classic. You seem to be missing my point.

[Barzotti]

It's not that they suck or are undergeared, any new raid content is still gonna take a bit of time for newer teams to learn how THEIR guild does it. Watching vids is easy, but executing the strat is gonna have a few hiccups.

Not standing in fire and dodging the two abilities bosses have, you call that a strat?

[Beazy]

Classic is on patch 1.12. . . . . . . BWL will be cleared within 3 to 5 hours of the server coming online. With 30 people.

[tikcol]

Classic is on patch 1.12. . . . . . . BWL will be cleared within 3 to 5 hours of the server coming online. With 30 people.

You're a bit late to the party buddy, it took less than 1 hour

[Segus1992]

It wasn't? It was to everyone who actually plays classic at any reputable level.

Definitely wasn't, or they wouldn't have rushed to get WF but rather gone later to ensure no lag interferes with the speedrun time.

[Dracullus]

yet it happened in only 42 minutes..... 42 MINUTES! Classic too hard guys.

So is reading for you, I guess.

[Beazy]

You're a bit late to the party buddy, it took less than 1 hour

Less than an hour? Jesus, they must have had perfect optimal damage and no mistakes.

Does Nef still insta gib you without shadow flame cloak? Or does 1.12 HP #s allow you to survive? And how did they clear the suppression rooms in under 20 min? Do they have a video?

[ellieg]

Not standing in fire and dodging the two abilities bosses have, you call that a strat?

Ok take vael for example. Aoe fire dmg, dragon abilities so stand on side, when you get the debuff run out of raid. Easy peasy.

When you execute the strat though, a lot of things could go wrong. Healers have 70% spell pushback ignore chance. Didnt take into account that heals could come out late. Do paladins use conc aura to help, or keep up fire res aura to help with the dmg itself. How many healers assigned to the tank? Should healers all be in 1 group with a priest so priest can PoH them up so they can focus on raid / tank? How much FR, mitigation, threat gear should the tank wear so you can balance incoming damage with how much dmg the dps can do before ripping aggro. Are the dps who have never done the fight gonna not get 3 insta shadowbolt crits in a row and pull aggro? Are we gonna get an unlucky timing of the debuff that hits on someone when they are already low hp? Will offtanks manage to stay 2nd on threat so they can take over when needed?

It's easy, but dont pretend like theres nothing that goes into it.

[RomanceDawn]

If you want the definition of welfare epics just look at classic raids hahahaha

[Joycemiester]

TBC: I'd strongly want to see boss damage and health increased by 10% falling by 1% a week until it reaches its original level. Also trash damage and health increased by 5% falling weekly like the bosses. The no changes brigade want a thriving community and what this does is buff the duration of it lasting. This is what I strongly wanted to have had done in classic. The power of the no changes advocates possibly prevented the developers from doing what I suggested or a form of it. It is important not to take my example as an exact way it could be done but to take the concept. Classic released using the 1.12 patch and all the changes that had come along the way making end game a joke also only compounded the (joke) ease of end game. TBC: Would not need to be launched in its final patch similar to how classic was and this also would help.
A lot of my guild are super motivated to go back to TBC if it came out buffed but not without. We are mostly into challenge however we are not everyone.

[Barzotti]

Ok take vael for example. Aoe fire dmg, dragon abilities so stand on side, when you get the debuff run out of raid. Easy peasy.

When you execute the strat though, a lot of things could go wrong. Healers have 70% spell pushback ignore chance. Didnt take into account that heals could come out late. Do paladins use conc aura to help, or keep up fire res aura to help with the dmg itself. How many healers assigned to the tank? Should healers all be in 1 group with a priest so priest can PoH them up so they can focus on raid / tank? How much FR, mitigation, threat gear should the tank wear so you can balance incoming damage with how much dmg the dps can do before ripping aggro. Are the dps who have never done the fight gonna not get 3 insta shadowbolt crits in a row and pull aggro? Are we gonna get an unlucky timing of the debuff that hits on someone when they are already low hp? Will offtanks manage to stay 2nd on threat so they can take over when needed?

It's easy, but dont pretend like theres nothing that goes into it.

You're grasping at straws so much. And managing threat, gear or learn to play issues are not parts of a strat.

[barrsftw]

Naxx was released in 1.11, but not cleared till 1.12.

1.11 was the balance patch. Naxx not being cleared until after 1.12 had nothing to do with the contents of the patch, but simply how long it took people to clear it.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_1.11.0

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_1.12.0

[ellieg]

You're grasping at straws so much. And managing threat, gear or learn to play issues are not parts of a strat.

I'm just explaining the difference between watching a video (or just hearing that the raid was done in 43 minutes for half of you that don't even play the game lol), and actually doing it in game. Never said it was hard. Just think half of the ppl in here think it's literally faceroll while not actually doing it but feel like their opinion is worth anything.

[Poe]

Our guild couldn't beat Flamegor the damage on the tanks was pretty insane.

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Go ahead and do the same. My guild is above casual, and we couldn't get past the 4th boss


Retail babies have some serious mental problems. Surely you can clear the raid in 42 minutes if you have a super optimal raid comp and gear, but that's not the case for most people. We clear MC in an hour and a half, and couldn't get past the 4th boss last night, in 3 hours. We're having fun while you complain here.

kisses

Average Classic player in a nutshell

[ParanoiD84]

Well to be fair apes have cleared that raid for years and it's not something the average guild will do, still less then a hour was very nice.

[OrcsRLame]

By mechanics? Yes, newer bosses tend to be mechanically harder, just because better hardware, more programming experience etc. allows more complex and interesting mechanics.

By numbers? No, you can always make a boss harder by just increasing the numbers compared to what people can achieve. Increase Nefarians hitpoints (multiply it by 10 for example) and increase its damage (multiply it by 5 for example) and you see, BWL would not be cleared by now.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, you can increase anything health and damage enough and it won't be killable. You could increase Hogger's health and damage by 1000000^1000000000 and no one would ever kill him.

What I'm talking about is how the bosses actually were on live servers, both when they first came out and when they were first killed. And by that metric, ToS Sargeras was harder than Sunwell Sargeras in every way possible, including the numbers.