Reasoning for it?

[Dunachar]

Considering she was sold like a slave by fellow Hordes only to be thrown into an arena as gladiator where she had to fight for her life to amuse the masses in Orgrimmar, the fact that she has ANY sympathy left for the Horde is astounding.
(...)
But then, the Horde playerbase brands everyone that opposes the genocidal plans of their Warchiefs and strives for a future without war as a traitor. Nothing new there.

This. Many of the Horde fanboys are oozing the thick slime of hypocrisy. Time and again the Horde goes on a full nazi-commie-jihadist rampage trying to conquer the world by genocide, and when they get beaten down, they go like the Monty Python peasant: "Help, help, I'm being oppressed!"

[Jastall]

Dude, don't be dense. Even in modern times, if you were, say, French, and France was involved in a large scale war against, say, the UK, you'd be very much expected to aid your country (i.e. France) in some capacity. Now, you might think that the war in question is injust, or you might be a pacifist, or you could even sympathize with the British - and that would be ok. But the moment you start actively aiding the British prime minister against your homeland, you become automatically a traitor.

Don't forget the part where a bunch of French people (including an adviser to the President) first tossed me in dubiously legal gladiator rings, treated me as little more than a slave, and I was then personally saved by said British Prime Minister. I see loyalty as a two-way street, and the way Valeera has been treated by the Horde doesn't exactly inspire any sort of patriotism. Rhegar being a nice guy overall is probably the sole reason she doesn't despise the Horde.

[Soon-TM]

Don't forget the part where a bunch of French people (including an adviser to the President) first tossed me in dubiously legal gladiator rings, treated me as little more than a slave, and I was then personally saved by said British Prime Minister. I see loyalty as a two-way street, and the way Valeera has been treated by the Horde doesn't exactly inspire any sort of patriotism. Rhegar being a nice guy overall is probably the sole reason she doesn't despise the Horde.

You may be salty (even if it's justified) with the French government, in this example. But if you actively aid said prime minister, you are still a traitor by definition... Unless you explicitly forfeit your French citizenry - something Valeera clearly hasn't done neither intends to, since she insists on calling herself a blood elf. She is THAT special

[Jastall]

You may be salty (even if it's justified) with the French government, in this example. But if you actively aid said prime minister, you are still a traitor by definition... Unless you explicitly forfeit your French citizenry - something Valeera clearly hasn't done neither intends to, since she insists on calling herself a blood elf. She is THAT special

Blood Elf is a race, not a nationality, so I'd say there's a clear difference. And being traitor by definition only matters to those who care about it, and few in the Horde seem to. She is uniquely suited to being a covert in-between the two world powers, which has its uses and then some.

That said I won't deny that Valeera feels like a super special original character (do not steal), down to the stupid outfit and "you can't tell me what to do!" attitude, which is par for the course given that Knaak wrote her. I don't particularly like her or anything. But I probably wouldn't react to her situation much differently than she did. Being a "traitor by definition" is a slight concern against the fact that the people I'm traitoring treated me like dirt.

[huth]

Don't forget the part where a bunch of French people (including an adviser to the President) first tossed me in dubiously legal gladiator rings, treated me as little more than a slave, and I was then personally saved by said British Prime Minister. I see loyalty as a two-way street, and the way Valeera has been treated by the Horde doesn't exactly inspire any sort of patriotism. Rhegar being a nice guy overall is probably the sole reason she doesn't despise the Horde.

You forgot the part where you aren't french to begin with.

[Soon-TM]

Blood Elf is a race, not a nationality, so I'd say there's a clear difference. And being traitor by definition only matters to those who care about it, and few in the Horde seem to. She is uniquely suited to being a covert in-between the two world powers, which has its uses and then some.

That said I won't deny that Valeera feels like a super special original character (do not steal), down to the stupid outfit and "you can't tell me what to do!" attitude, which is par for the course given that Knaak wrote her. I don't particularly like her or anything. But I probably wouldn't react to her situation much differently than she did. Being a "traitor by definition" is a slight concern against the fact that the people I'm traitoring treated me like dirt.

In the context of WoW, race pretty much equals nationality, as it befits a pre-modern setting. Bob rules over the BEs, Rokhan over the DS trolls, Tyrande over NEs, and so on. While Alliance and Horde are certainly multirracial/multicultural entities, each of its constituting states certainly aren't. There are even internal forks due to different history, like DS and Zandalari trolls.

And while Valeera is certainly entitled to tell Bob to gtfo because of him bringing Silvermoon into her hated Horde fold, she can't do that and still call herself a blood elf. Such attitude is more fitting to a high elf, but no, Blizzard had to tease Alliance players with the whole high elf thing - again.

[huth]

You may be salty (even if it's justified) with the French government, in this example. But if you actively aid said prime minister, you are still a traitor by definition... Unless you explicitly forfeit your French citizenry - something Valeera clearly hasn't done neither intends to, since she insists on calling herself a blood elf. She is THAT special

She doesn't have to forfeit her Horde citizenry because she never had one to begin with. And she's calling herself a Blood Elf because she is one. You might as well demand that your Frenchman stops calling themselves a human.

[formerShandalay]

Varian landed in the slavepens and became a gladiator before even Vanilla started, so... Valeera wasn't part of the Horde at that point and while she boasts the green eyes, I'm not aware that she has had any close ties to Silvermoon since then. Although I actually don't really know that. She is part of the Uncrowned and those don't actually belong to their race-specific factions, at least not the core members. There were all kinds of races in Ravenholdt manor. I don't think any of those count as traitors to their respective factions.
There's also lots of Orcs, Tauren and Bloodelves in the Argent Crusade. They don't count as traitors either.

[Soon-TM]

She doesn't have to forfeit her Horde citizenry because she never had one to begin with. And she's calling herself a Blood Elf because she is one. You might as well demand that your Frenchman stops calling themselves a human.

If she calls herself a blood elf, she owes allegiance to Bob, and by proxy, to the Horde as a whole. Silvermoon is a !@#$ing monarchy, you don't get to decide whether you obey the legitimate ruler or not, you MUST obey him/her. If you don't, you can be labelled a traitor by medieval standards, especially if you aid an enemy head of state. Imagine an NPC going by something like "Greetings everyone! I'm a Kul Tiran, but since I'm salty with ol' Kathy, I will help her long standing enemy's chief!".

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Valeera wasn't part of the Horde at that point and while she boasts the green eyes, I'm not aware that she has had any close ties to Silvermoon since then

So, just another high elf who secretly indulged in smoking a couple of fel cigars from time to time?

[huth]

In the context of WoW, race pretty much equals nationality, as it befits a pre-modern setting.

Where did you get that nonsense from? Nations have been a thing for thousands of years before modernity, and races in WoW do not equal nationalities at all. Nearly every race has at least one splintergroup, often hostile to them, and most nations in the lore have citizens of other races.

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If she calls herself a blood elf, she owes allegiance to Bob, and by proxy, to the Horde as a whole. Silvermoon is a !@#$ing monarchy, you don't get to decide whether you obey the legitimate ruler or not, you MUST obey him/her.

No. She's a Blood Elf, not a Silvermoon Blood Elf. She's part of the race, not the nation. Your equation of race and nation is hogwash and has no actual basis in lore.

And your claim about Monarchy is laughable, considering that the Blood Elves basically kicked out their last king after they found out what he did.

[Soon-TM]

Where did you get that nonsense from? Nations have been a thing for thousands of years before modernity, and races in WoW do not equal nationalities at all. Nearly every race has at least one splintergroup, often hostile to them, and most nations in the lore have citizens of other races.

Nope. The very concept of nationality comes from relatively recent times, i.e. 17th/18th centuries. Before that, the only thing that went over racial/ethnic differences in the West was religion, but since religion plays a fairly minor role in WoW (aside from the Scarlets and AU Yrel, who are of no consequence until now), we can safely dismiss religion as a unifying factor.

Besides, the very concept of nation and nationalism are relatively recent developments. Here's something for you:

Many political scientists have theorized about the foundations of the concept of nation-state and of sovereignty. The concept of nation in political science draws from these theoretical foundations. Philosophers like Machiavelli, Locke, Hobbes, and Rousseau conceptualized the state as the result of a "social contract" between rulers and individuals. Weber provides the most commonly used definition of the state, "that human community which successfully lays claim to the monopoly of legitimate physical violence within a certain territory". According to Benedict Anderson, nations are "Imagined Communities", or socially constructed institutions.

The sociological or modernist interpretation of nationalism and nation argues that nationalism arises and flourishes in modern societies that have an industrial economy capable of self-sustainability, a central supreme authority capable of maintaining authority and unity, and a centralized language understood by a community of people. Modernist theorists note that this is only possible in modern societies, while traditional societies typically lack the prerequisites for nationalism.. They lack a modern self-sustainable economy, have divided authorities, and use multiple languages resulting in many groups being unable to communicate with each other.

I.e. there cannot be loyalty to a nation in a pre-modern setting like WoW's. The only loyalty that counts is toward your legitimate political leader, especially in a freaking monarchy.

[huth]

I.e. there cannot be loyalty to a nation in a pre-modern setting like WoW's. The only loyalty that counts is toward your legitimate political leader, especially in a freaking monarchy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation

Seems to me the article doesn't actually support your claim quite as well as you pretend. Especially the part about "Medieval Nations".

Maybe you should read the entire thing and not just the parts that seem to confirm your preconceptions at first glance.


And we have several ethnic groups even within the races, so your point is moot anyway.

[ravenmoon]

I blame Garithos. If that monkey was dropped on his head when he was born, High Elves (Blood elves) would still be part of the Alliance. God knows how would their path develop then... If Kael stayed in the Alliance and had help from humans (instead of nagas >>>> connected to Illidan)

Wow players are too faction orientated, they dont seem to be able to zoom out and imagien that anyone doesn't view everything interms of their faction.

[Soon-TM]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation

Seems to me the article doesn't actually support your claim quite as well as you pretend. Especially the part about "Medieval Nations".

Maybe you should read the entire thing and not just the parts that seem to confirm your preconceptions at first glance.

From your own source:

In his book The Construction of Nationhood: Ethnicity, Religion and Nationalism, Adrian Hastings argues that England's Anglo Saxon kings mobilized mass nationalism in their struggle to repel Norse invasions. Hastings argues that Alfred the Great, in particular, drew on biblical nationalism, using biblical language in his law code and that during his reign selected books of the Bible were translated into Old English to inspire Englishmen to fight to turn back the Norse invaders. Hastings argues for a strong renewal of English nationalism (following a hiatus after the Norman conquest) beginning with the translation of the complete bible into English by the Wycliffe circle in the 1380s, arguing that English nationalism and the English nation have been continuous since that time.

Looks like they didn't appeal to nationalist speech and tropes, but rather to religious zeal, which is largely absent in WoW. Maybe you should try reading the stuff first? And in medieval times, not obeying your legitimate king/regent, as Valeera does, automatically implied incurring in treason, which was harshly punished at the time... Not really the best environment for "zomg I'm a belf but I help their enemies anyway cuz I'm cool" Valeera.

And we have several ethnic groups even within the races, so your point is moot anyway.

Only for Dwarves, and they fought for a long time among themselves. They only were more or less unified quite recently (WHs in Cata, and DI in freaking BfA), and all of the political issues in Ironforge are still in a limbo because Blizzard cannot write a ruling council for !@#%.

[Jastall]

In the context of WoW, race pretty much equals nationality, as it befits a pre-modern setting. Bob rules over the BEs, Rokhan over the DS trolls, Tyrande over NEs, and so on. While Alliance and Horde are certainly multirracial/multicultural entities, each of its constituting states certainly aren't. There are even internal forks due to different history, like DS and Zandalari trolls.

And while Valeera is certainly entitled to tell Bob to gtfo because of him bringing Silvermoon into her hated Horde fold, she can't do that and still call herself a blood elf. Such attitude is more fitting to a high elf, but no, Blizzard had to tease Alliance players with the whole high elf thing - again.

Erm, no. Humans have several different nationalities, for starters, and Blood Elves are infamously very, very similar to High Elves who owe allegiance to the Alliance, Kirin Tor, or both. Orcs have their clans, Tauren their tribes, there are Night Elves separate from the Darnassian bulk, Forsaken raised undead who aren't Forsaken, so on and so forth. Race does often denote nationality, but not always, not by a long shot. And pre-modern? Whu? Correlating race or ethnicity with nationality is if anything a modern idea, ancient empires like Egypt or kingdoms like France happily had a bunch of different ethnicities and cultures in the fold.

But we're getting sidetracked. Given what the Horde did to her, and given that she wasn't even in a position to say yes or no when Quel'thalas joined the Horde, I find it hard to fault her for not slavishly obeying the edicts of a faction that has done literally nothing for her and instead favoring the family that has been nothing but good to her.

[Minikin]

Because saying that what is happening in Org now happened in Silvermoon as well back then is 100% fanfiction. What isn't fanfiction is this:



Looks like Bob's rule is 100% legit

I guess you could take a look at that same website you are quoting and read the actual in game quote from her.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Valeera_Sanguinar
"I am neither Horde nor Alliance. What has either faction ever done for me?"

or you know, World of Warcraft Comic: Stranger in a Strange Land:
"She culturally identifies as a blood elf, taking pride in her people's traditions and defending their tribulations and loyalties. However, she herself acts independently of the Thalassian government, and has formally joined neither the Horde nor the Alliance since her introduction but is fiercely loyal to Varian and his son."

but who am i kidding, obviously YOUR opnion matters more than
1. Person working for Blizzard programming a quote as her audio file
2. Person working for Blizzard typing up a quote for a character.

Dont let me stand in the way of the TrAIToR chant.

[formerShandalay]

If she calls herself a blood elf, she owes allegiance to Bob, and by proxy, to the Horde as a whole. Silvermoon is a !@#$ing monarchy, you don't get to decide whether you obey the legitimate ruler or not, you MUST obey him/her. If you don't, you can be labelled a traitor by medieval standards, especially if you aid an enemy head of state. Imagine an NPC going by something like "Greetings everyone! I'm a Kul Tiran, but since I'm salty with ol' Kathy, I will help her long standing enemy's chief!".

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So, just another high elf who secretly indulged in smoking a couple of fel cigars from time to time?

When the high elves renamed themselves blood elves, there was no fel taint on them yet. They did this before Kael'thas joined Garithos's forces against the remaining Scourge. She must have still been in Silvermoon when Rommath came back later with the new stuff Kael had learned on Outland to get the green eyes, but that was still way before BC happened. In BC they had already rebuilt Silvermoon and most of the surrounding lands.
If anyone had seen her as a traitor, especially the blood elf ruling body, they would have said so after the Wrathgate, where she aided in the Alliance part of the Undercity-questline. You know, the part where Varian declared war on the Horde. No one minded her back then and she never actually helped in any Alliance war effort. She remained a messenger.

[Soon-TM]

But we're getting sidetracked. Given what the Horde did to her, and given that she wasn't even in a position to say yes or no when Quel'thalas joined the Horde, I find it hard to fault her for not slavishly obeying the edicts of a faction that has done literally nothing for her and instead favoring the family that has been nothing but good to her.

I agree, she didn't have to blindly follow Bob into the Horde fold. That alone makes her a high elf, i.e. the Thalassian folks who disavowed Kael and Bob, and stayed in Alliance or para-Alliance organisations (e.g. Silver Covenant). The whole insistence about her calling herself a blood elf, in spite of her behaving like a bona fide (even if a little cocky) high elf, is just baffling.

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she never actually helped in any Alliance war effort. She remained a messenger.

I find difficult to believe that Anduin's personal, most trusted spy (along with maybe Shaw) didn't help the Alliance war effort in any measure, and contented herself with being a glorified mailperson.

[Jastall]

I agree, she didn't have to blindly follow Bob into the Horde fold. That alone makes her a high elf, i.e. the Thalassian folks who disavowed Kael and Bob, and stayed in Alliance or para-Alliance organisations (e.g. Silver Covenant). The whole insistence about her calling herself a blood elf, in spite of her behaving like a bona fide (even if a little cocky) high elf, is just baffling.

Maybe less baffling and more Knaak trying to have his cake and eat it too. She gets to be the special Blood Elf with the sexy red outfit and who is too cool to be bound by faction lines, man. In general WoW's writers seem a lot less passionate about said faction lines than a number of fans anyway.

[formerShandalay]

I agree, she didn't have to blindly follow Bob into the Horde fold. That alone makes her a high elf, i.e. the Thalassian folks who disavowed Kael and Bob, and stayed in Alliance or para-Alliance organisations (e.g. Silver Covenant). The whole insistence about her calling herself a blood elf, in spite of her behaving like a bona fide (even if a little cocky) high elf, is just baffling.

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I find difficult to believe that Anduin's personal, most trusted spy (along with maybe Shaw) didn't help the Alliance war effort in any measure, and contented herself with being a glorified mailperson.

Well, maybe, but I do think if apart from Anduin she is secondary aligned with the Uncrowned, maybe it's because of that. I mean, no one ever thought that Lord Ravenholdt was sending intel to the Alliance, even though his stronghold is very close to Tarren's Mill and he is supposed to be the pinnacle of rogues somehow. Also, even though he somehow managed to acquire all sorts of races and lived near Horde territory, noone ever thought of him as a traitor to the Alliance either. Even though he is a human.