Did the blood elves oppose burning Teldrassil?

[Aeula]

Really? When was the last time that the Night Elves attacked the Blood Elves? I remember Tyrande helping them, not killing them.
Meanwhile the Orcs slaughtered every High Elf on their path and would have exterminated them if it wasn't for the Alliance to save them. The windrunners even lost their brother.
Really, we have the Alliance helping them to survive against the Trolls, the Orcs, restoring their sunwell... And as a payback the Blood Elves slaughter their civilians and wage a total war against them?

TBC was when the Night Elves launched their hostile incursion.

And again, no guarantee every blood elf feels the same way and I doubt your average joe knows she helped Kael’thas since he had to skedaddle to Outland shortly after and was kinda busy going crazy to tell his people about that relatively minor incident (Compared to everything else going on around that time).

Also bare in mind that many members of the old Alliance of Lordaeron are also part of the Horde via the Forsaken. People tend to forget that.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for confiming that the Night Elves didn't kill any one blood elf.

- - - Updated - - -

They launched attacks against them. You have to defend three of them for one quest.

[Mehrunes]

You really can’t take your head out of your own fanfic for long enough to find out what characters your talking about? It would take you 30 seconds to google elegy and go to the last page.

Yeah, no. You can't even quote the relevant part of Elegy.

Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.

Anduin had known she was selfish—arrogant, too. Cunning.

Driven. But he had never expected this.

The "this" Anduin didn't expect was the genocide mentioned two lines earlier. As such, that line is used in clear reference to him, not Tyrande because of such mystical ideas like subject of a sentence and basic sentence structure. And, like I already pointed out, it is a statement of his view on the matter because of equally basic narration structure. Way to miss the context.

While not even making any actual point. Because even if it did refer to Tyrande, which it does not, at best you'd have me getting one of the two characters wrong. What does it change in regards to anything I've said? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Is that the best you've got? Wait, why the hell am I even asking. Of course it is.

The night elfs were also targeted due to there race/nation as the horde thought that would cause a divide between the elfs and the worgen.

Nothing in what you quoted there says they were targeted over their race or nationality. Kinda because Sylvanas doesn't give a shit about Night Elves as a race and you won't see her merrily hunting people not aligned with the Alliance. I wonder why is that. You literally just supported my claim that they were attacked for being a member of the Alliance so that a specific goal against the Alliance, i.e. making its members unable to act in cohesive manner, could have been achieved. The best part is you're so full of yourself you don't even see it.

And for god's sake, you're quoting a part of A Good War in which Sylvanas and Saurfang go over their initial plan of holding the World Tree hostage while pretending it is somehow of relevance to the later decision to burn it instead. As if any and all decision one may have in regards to the Night Elves had the same reasoning. So even if you were right in your claims about what you quoted, which you as per usual are not, it still wouldn't be of any relevance to the burning. Your argument in this thread already started weak and from there it was nothing but a downward spiral.

This is where they talk about the burning:

“They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.

“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”

He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”

Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.

When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.

But she was right.

A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.

Would you look at that, nothing but driving the wedge between Alliance members.

It was a genocide that’s a fact of the lore. You deluding you’re self about it to such an extreme extent would be impressive if it wasn’t so sad.

Instead of throwing insults around you could actually read the link I quoted and educate yourself on the matter you made it obvious you know absolutely nothing about.

thats rich. only @Mehrunes would claim fanfic then outright deny an actual word used in the book. BUT here is some number about climate change!

What's rich is you being incapable of making an argument of your own yet thinking you're in a position to make a jab at me (which isn't really yours either as you borrowed @Daemos daemonium nonsensical bit about climate change). And educate yourself through the link I earlier gave to them as well, because you also don't know what you are talking about. Hint: just because a word is used in a novel doesn't mean it's used properly.

Not that it's even my main point. My main point is that the word is used in clear description of Anduin's (and in another part of the novel, Astarii's) views. And last time I checked neither of those characters are the be all, end all of Warcraft, because not even the Titans are omniscient in Warcraft universe. And you'd know that had you actually read my post. But, as in another recent thread, you seem uninterested in anything of the sort and are more keen on blindly throwing shit (and a handful of salt) at other posters to make some weak attempt at a gotcha. Likewise, I didn't claim fanfic in the post Daemos daemonium was replying to there either, which you'd also know if you engaged in anything resembling a genuine argument.

[Minikin]

You really can’t take your head out of your own fanfic for long enough to find out what characters your talking about? It would take you 30 seconds to google elegy and go to the last page.

Yeah, no. You can't even quote the relevant part of Elegy.


The "this" Anduin didn't expect was the genocide mentioned two lines earlier. As such, that line is used in clear reference to him, not Tyrande because of such mystical ideas like subject of a sentence and basic sentence structure. And, like I already pointed out, it is a statement of his view on the matter because of equally basic narration structure. Way to miss the context while not even making any actual point. Because even if it did refer to Tyrande, which it does not, at best you'd have me getting one of the two characters wrong. What does it change in regards to anything I've said? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Is that the best you've got? Wait, why the hell am I even asking. Of course it is.




Nothing in what you quoted there says they were targeted over their race or nationality. Kinda because Sylvanas doesn't give a shit about Night Elves as a race and you won't see her merrily hunting people not aligned with the Alliance. I wonder why is that You literally just supported my claim that they were attacked for being a member of the Alliance so that a specific goal against the Alliance, i.e. making its members unable to act in cohesive manner, could have been achieved. The best part is you're so full of yourself you don't even see it.

And for god's sake, you're quoting a part of A Good War in which Sylvanas and Saurfang go over their initial plan of holding the World Tree hostage while pretending it is somehow of relevance to the later decision to burn it instead. Your argument in this thread already started weak and from there it was nothing but a downward spiral.




Instead of throwing insults around you could actually read the link I quoted and educate yourself on the matter you made it obvious you know absolutely nothing about.




What's rich is you being incapable of making an argument of your own yet thinking you're in a position to make a jab at me (which isn't really yours either as you borrowed @Daemos daemonium nonsensical bit about climate change). And educate yourself through the link I earlier gave to them as well, because you also don't know what you are talking about. Hint: just because a word is used in a novel doesn't mean it's used properly.

Not that it's even my main point. My main point is that the word is used in clear description of Anduin's (and in another part of the novel, Astarii's) views. And last time I checked neither of those characters are the be all, end all of Warcraft. And you'd know that had you actually read my post. But, as in another recent thread, you seem uninterested in anything of the sort and are more keen on blindly throwing shit (and a handful of salt) at other posters to make some weak attempt at a gotcha. Likewise, I didn't claim fanfic in the post Daemos daemonium was replying to there either, which you'd also know if you engaged in anything resembling a genuine argument.

more useless words. I am sure in your version of the book the word genocide was redacted.

lol claiming I have salt. Arent you the one always getting banned for your fanfics?

Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

Thanks for confiming that the Night Elves didn't kill any one blood elf.

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You asked for attacks, not kills. Are the Blood Elves supposed to pat the Night Elves on the back for invading their territory for no apparent reason using the guise of Alliance diplomatic talks with Quel'Thalas just because they didn't kill anyone? Especially when they did so while the Blood Elves were already in the gutter? Besides, the Night Elves most certainly try to kill people at the very least because they attack anyone on sight.

[StationaryHawk]

Lor'themar disagreed, though he hesitated to act for fear of the consequences. His people chose to follow him once he put forward the choice, so the majority of blood elves either agree, or are loyal enough to follow him regardless.

Some Sunreavers sided with Sylvanas, as they viewed the Purge of Dalaran as the responsibility of the Alliance as a whole, but I think it's safe to say they're a significant minority.

[Aucald]

This thread needs to settle down - drop the jabs and insulting language and focus on the topic at hand, discussing it constructively and civilly.

[Lucrece]

Lor'themar disagreed, though he hesitated to act for fear of the consequences. His people chose to follow him once he put forward the choice, so the majority of blood elves either agree, or are loyal enough to follow him regardless.

Some Sunreavers sided with Sylvanas, as they viewed the Purge of Dalaran as the responsibility of the Alliance as a whole, but I think it's safe to say they're a significant minority.

Don't know why people are concerned over what blood elves thought when the real lore atrocity is the nightborne being OK with this tyrannical conqueror storyline (Elisande's autocracy vis a vis Sylvanas, everyone?) when we just helped them build a magical tree to cure them of their illness, a tree grown by a Night Elf druid.

Or that Taurens would be fine burning a sacred site to druids.

The whole BFA storyline is a contrived sack of shit that makes no sense.

[Mehrunes]

more useless words. I am sure in your version of the book the word genocide was redacted.

This is still not even remotely what I said. If you're not going to address what is actually said in what you're replying to, why are you replying at all?

lol claiming I have salt. Arent you the one always getting banned for your fanfics?

What fanfics are you talking about?

[eurojust]

You asked for attacks, not kills.

Nope, i replied to someone who said that Blood Elves were killed by Night Elves.

[Mehrunes]

Don't know why people are concerned over what blood elves thought when the real lore atrocity is the nightborne being OK with this tyrannical conqueror storyline (Elisande's autocracy vis a vis Sylvanas, everyone?) when we just helped them build a magical tree to cure them of their illness, a tree grown by a Night Elf druid.

Or that Taurens would be fine burning a sacred site to druids.

The whole BFA storyline is a contrived sack of shit that makes no sense.

Teldrassil isn't sacred to anyone, let alone Horde Druids. It's 12 years old (at best) monument to Fandral's hubris who couldn't deal with Night Elves losing immortality. Even Malfurion was against its creation. And the only World Tree of any value is Nordrassil. The rest are various kinds of mistakes.

As for Farodin, not only was he not a Druid, but he wasn't even affiliated with Darnassus. And his magical tree had nothing to do with World Trees.

Finały what vis a vis is there between Elissande selling her own people to the Legion and Sylvanas waging war against her enemy?

[Specialka]

Teldrassil isn't sacred to anyone, let alone Horde Druids. It's 12 years old (at best) monument to Fandral's hubris who couldn't deal with Night Elves losing immortality. Even Malfurion was against its creation. And the only World Tree of any value is Nordrassil. The rest are various kinds of mistakes.

As for Farodin, not only was he not a Druid, but he wasn't even affiliated with Darnassus. And his magical tree had nothing to do with World Trees.

Finały what vis a vis is there between Elissande selling her own people to the Legion and Sylvanas waging war against her enemy?

I guess selling her ppl to the Legion and killing tons of civilians is not totally the same thing Ah yes, they are the acts of dictators, so they freed themselves from one to go with another.

[Budong]

It's a war crime, and here it's not even a city here but an entire zone where almost all of the nelves citizen lived (hence the genocide).

War crime by who's standards? Ours in real life? Azeroth is a different world and a different standard. You guys should really give up on the whole pushing real life morality onto fictional worlds (Game of Thrones, WoW etc. )

[Specialka]

War crime by who's standards? Ours in real life? Azeroth is a different world and a different standard. You guys should really give up on the whole pushing real life morality onto fictional worlds (Game of Thrones, WoW etc. )

While you are correct on some points, the burning of Teldrassil still shocks quite a bit of ppl in the Wow universe.

[FuxieDK]

While you are correct on some points, the burning of Teldrassil still shocks quite a bit of ppl in the Wow universe.

The only chock, was that we had to wait 13,5 years for it to happen.

It was never an question of IF it would happen but WHEN it would happen.

[Budong]

While you are correct on some points, the burning of Teldrassil still shocks quite a bit of ppl in the Wow universe.

I'm sure it does. I just don't like seeing people apply real world legal standards to fictional places.

Personally my two blood elf characters viewed it differently. One is a hunter and probably found it disturbing considering she shares a love of nature with the NE's. The other is a mage and he was probably completely indifferent to the plight of those who mostly abandoned the arcane.

[Ardenaso]

eh it actually does make sense at the story progresses.

1. Their last interaction with the alliance ended up with them dealing with a racist.
2. Night elves absolutely wouldnt allow their practicing

That's weird, the Alliance High Elves/Silver Covenant were already banding together as far as WC3 in Mount Hyjal. The High Elf Priests(and probably Paladins too) were even credited as the MVPs of the Summit Defense.

[Raisei]

The shock expressed by characters only makes sense if you adhere to Christie Golden's special interpretation of the universe. Which is the root cause of the problem to begin with. If the Burning of Teldrassil had happened during Warcraft 2 or 3 or even during the earlier days of WoW nobody would've tried to claim it was a 'war crime'.

Always this argument. Just because you do not like Golden does not make her books not-canon anymore. Golden is one of the people that decide what is canon and what isn't and if she says there are war crimes and that most of the leaders of Azeroth recognize them as such then this is how it is. Stop making your own canon and pushing it as an argument.

Besides, even in WC3 the Culling of Stratholm, i.e. the killing of innocent civilians, was very much disagreed with by prominent figures like Uther and Jaina. And this was despite the fact that both of them knew that Arthas had a good almost noble reason.

The very terms of 'war crime' and 'genocide' were coined during the late 20th century as a result of the wide acceptance of humanism and human rights. Something which has never happened in Azeroth's history yet... and if it ever would happen it would feel 100% out of place.

True, but since this is not the real world the people writing it decide which terms are used when, not you or your education about real life history and it is a simple fact that by the time of Garrosh's trial both the words "war crimes" and "genocide" were used and understood by everyone present. So much so that Tyrande asking Varian if he was genocidal caused quite a stir.

You can disagree with all of this writing and hate Golden for all eternity, but this is the canon.

What loved ones did Arthas force Sylvanas to kill?

Ouch, you got me there. Since she is a sociopath even then, she does not have any of those of course. I was speaking generally including her entire kin, but you are right, my bad.

But is there such an understanding there or are you projecting? Given the extremely timid (to say the least) response to Teldrassil among the Horde members, chances are you are projecting.

There is, as I mentioned above. War Crimes, as much as you will hate on it now, makes that clear. On top of that both Saurfang's reaction as well as Baine's are clear indication that such an attack is in the Horde's eyes at least dishonorable which for a society based on honor like the orcs is a serious offense.

Most of the charges against Garrosh were various sorts of ridiculous and the entire trial was a farcical kangaroo court. I'm not sure why would you think it's an example in your favor.

Again, unless Blizzard puts out a statement saying that Golden's book are not canon they simply are. You hating their plot or author does in no way change that.

Except that goal of the campaign relied on actually holding the tree, which required a timid population. Which Saurfang completely fucked up. Which Sylvanas pointed out to him and he consequently accepted. The very author of that campaign, its goal included, disagrees with you.

The campaign also relied on the elves suddenly forgetting that there is portals and teleportation magic or their abilities to turn into dolphins, seals and birds to just fly away, which ruin any such plan. No matter how timid the population is, they would have been able to get out of the tree. It was not well planned in many regards.

Except that Saurfang and Baine are the only traitors. Remember the oath that all Horde members take when they join; They serve the will of their Warchief, to the end. The way of the Horde has always been about this. All those who oppose are invited to Mok'gora, or to just sit with their choice. Those that rebel are traitors. Sure, they are serving more for the spirit and heart of what the Horde is about, primarily the grounds of Thrall's Horde, but that doesn't deny that they're betraying their oaths they swore.

If anything, I would be nervous about Baine and his seemingly flexible views on what his word means.

Technically though, all the Horde leadership, with the exception of Gallywix, is a traitor then, since they all stood at the gates of Orgrimmar and went against their Warchiefs will. Twice, as the same happened with Garrosh. The Blood Oath either applies to everyone or no one, Baine and Saurfang should not be counted as the only Traitors. Hell even the non-loyalist PCs are Traitors, twice over.
And don't start with "Baine killed Horde members tho", each and every one of them did, the Horde PC did during the SoO raid. The NPCs there were the loyal Horde members, you killed them, you are a Traitor.

Also as we have seen in the Mak'gora that happened no one could have beaten Sylvanas and they knew it. Sure Baine could have challenged her and died. A spectacular suicide but quite pointless. Especially since she had already threatened his people during the Siege of Lordaeron there was no sense in going that route.

[Ardenaso]

And don't start with "Baine killed Horde members tho", each and every one of them did, the Horde PC did during the SoO raid. The NPCs there were the loyal Horde members, you killed them, you are a Traitor.

Let's not even forget that Sylvanas and Nathanos were more than willing to let the Horde guards die as some "hubris bait" when they told the player to just go along with it.

[Specialka]

Not really. Even religious folks of any religion don't all agree with every writer that ever contributed to their main "holy texts" and each group makes their own selection on what is considered true or not.

Honestly that is how I feel with Golden's writing right now. You can claim it's canon and believe it's canon and for you it might then be canon.

But I reject the notion and for me it's not canon, and never will be considered canon as it's just too ridiculous to wrap my head around -and- makes the Warcraft universe seems quite idiotic.

In the end we will not see eye to eye on this.

Not really good analogy because in most case, religious texts have been written millenia ago and these authors are all dead.

While Golden is still alive and she is writing the story right now. You have no authority over her to say what is canon and what is not.

[Ardenaso]

Not really. Even religious folks of any religion don't all agree with every writer that ever contributed to their main "holy texts" and each group makes their own selection on what is considered true or not.

Honestly that is how I feel with Golden's writing right now. You can claim it's canon and believe it's canon and for you it might then be canon.

But I reject the notion and for me it's not canon, and never will be considered canon as it's just too ridiculous to wrap my head around -and- makes the Warcraft universe seems quite idiotic.

In the end we will not see eye to eye on this.

It's not enough! Let's go deeper! WoW is not canon because it's just too ridiculous to wrap our heads around -and- makes the Warcraft universe seem quite idiotic with its retcons and inconsistencies.