What's the optimal raid comp for each BC encounter?

[garicasha]

I'll keep it clumped at the beginning then start separating for BT/Sunwell. We're only gonna assume rogues have glaives in Sunwell.

Also I think ret's value is gonna change from Alliance to Horde due to Blood Elf Seal of Blood.

Here's a starting point: https://classic.wowhead.com/raid-com...bbqxyyyyrppswr There's probably some mistakes in there, I don't recall feral tanks being all that wonderful. It's also VERY ranged heavy, probably would get wrecked on RoS.


T4:
Karazhan

Gruul / Magtheridon


T5:
Serpentshrine Cavern (Fathom-Lord Karathress, Hydross the Unstable, Lurker Below, Morogrim, Leotheras, Lady Vashj)

Tempest Keep (Al'Ar, High Astromancer Solarian, Void Reaver, Kael'Thas)

T6:
Battle for Mount Hyjal (Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal, Azgalor, Archimonde)

Black Temple:
High Warlord Naj'entus
Supremus
Shade of Akama
Teron Gorefiend
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Reliquary of Lost Souls
Mother Shahraz
Illidari Council
Illidan

Sunwell:
Kalecgos
Brutallus
Felmyst
Eredar Twins
M'uru
Kil'Jaeden

[ujx]

Everything before T6: Warlocks

Everything after T6: Hunters and Rogues (w/Warglaives)

[garicasha]

I remember it being the opposite...

that one gun from Little Red Riding Hood being super good because of its weapon speed and the way it worked with auto-shot or something...

[durenas]

calculate how much dps you need to kill a boss, calculate how much time it would take you. knock 30% off. Then sub in enough shamans to give bloodlust to the entire raid for the entire duration.

[Kralljin]

calculate how much dps you need to kill a boss, calculate how much time it would take you. knock 30% off. Then sub in enough shamans to give bloodlust to the entire raid for the entire duration.

Bloodlust only affects the party in TBC.

[durenas]

Bloodlust only affects the party in TBC.

Exactly. Stacking shamans for bloodlust was how the first Brutallus kills were done.

[Featuring Dante]

It doesnt matter because encounters pre kaelthas are easy as shit and thenonly in sunwell you have muru and kj. If it bothers you just stack hunters and warlocks.

[Kralljin]

Exactly. Stacking shamans for bloodlust was how the first Brutallus kills were done.

So, going by your logic, if a boss takes 2min to kill, you want to bring...15 shamans?
Because that's how many you need when the entire raid is supposed to have Bloodlust for the entire fight.

Perma Bloodlust on the whole raid is a pipe dream in any realistic scenario.

Brutallus has a 6min Enrage timer, which the first kills most certainly hit, even if you wanted to maintain perma Bloodlust in a single party, you'd already need 9 Shaman, unless the entire healing roster was made by up Resto Shaman, that's not going to happen, especially because you still need tankhealers and that's where Resto Shaman have been poor in particular.

Shaman stacking was a thing in TBC, but not to the point where you brought 9+ into the raid, simply because Elemental / Enhance fell off by the time of SWP and filling your entire healing roster with Resto Shaman really gimped your healing setup.

[garicasha]

You don't need shamans, you need leatherworkers. amirite?

[msdos]

Just put enhance shaman in the hunter group and have all the resto shamans chain lightning on add phases. Win the game. It's that easy.

[Heathy]

we didn't have many shamans the first time only 2 or 3, going through my old tbc screenshots, because we were alliance we had more palas. we did raid with something like 5 priests 3-4 palas and 1-2 shamans. if it was 3 palas it was 2 shaman if it was 1 shaman it was 4 palas. the number of shaman we had grew over time but it was ppl rolling alts.

I remember we had 1 feral/tank druid, 2-3 actual main tanks. the idea also being to have a shadow priest, preferably a draenei in the spell caster group, so 1 shadow priest + 4 mages, boomkin + warlocks, or some combination of boomkin/shadow priest/mages/locks.

then the melee group and a healer group and a tank group, thats 5 groups. mages gp1, warlocks/boomkin gp2. melee group with a hunter gp3, healer group gp4, tank group (probably with pala auras or wf) gp5. 7-8 healers. I think we did 3-4 priests 2-3 palas 1 shaman 1 druid. for most of the bosses you're only going to need 2 tanks but a 3rd is useful on some of them. like kael. or vashj. incase 1 tank dies.

you just want a mix of classes, you'll probably only have 5 or so melee + the tanks. so 1 dps warrior and 3 rogues + a hunter makes up a melee group. windfury isn't totally mandatory because if you don't have it you probably will have kings and might anyway. the better choice if you only have 1 shaman would be to put them in with the healers or tanks for mana tide or wf on the tanks. its not worth stacking melee because it'll only be impossible to heal since melee are punished pretty badly in BC on a lot of fights. melee have fights where they control the success like fathom-lord, melee killing totems is pretty much what wins the fight kinda like jin'do. but there are fights where having too many melee is going to be detrimental like leotheras having 80% of the raid get whirlwinded won't be pretty.


shifting into tbc, you need 3x 10 mans to clear karazhan so you have 25 ppl with some t4, 5 ppl getting benched for the first 25man. you'll have 6 tanks but only need 2 or 3. as a tank, it seems like that first week of raiding might be disappointing for some ppl. you'll get to do kara but you won't get to do grull or mag. if you're one of those 5 spare ppl. healers had a bench rotation, tanks had a bench rotation. etc

in the beginning I think karazhan was smoother with 3 healers but once ppl had t5 you could do karazhan with 2. same for zulaman i think. you aren't going to get that many shamans if you already have a bunch of palas and priests, unless they reroll or are happy being benched for the first few weeks. same for horde and palas, unless a bunch of ppl reroll, you will likely have more shaman than palas. on the flip side you do only need kings and might or wisdom so 2 palas would be enough, except your alliance guild prolly has more than 2 palas, similarly your horde guild likely has more than 5 shaman.

in the end those first raids are simply going to be composed of whoever gets to 70 and signs up first. i would not be surprised if it was grull and mag that died first and then ppl go to kara. I don't think either of them had an attunement. it'll just depend on what happens first, 10 ppl getting attuned to karazhan or 25 ppl getting to 70.

specifically for certain boss fights, you want a warrior to tank kael'thas because, spell reflect.

morogrim hit quite hard and was better tanked by a druid who could get higher avoidance (and more max hp) easier than a warrior or pala, I think this boss had a very high chance to simply two shot any tank that wasn't a druid and even druids weren't immune to it. likewise on that fight one strat involves using a pala (tank or not) with righteous fury to draw aggro from the spawning adds, rather than them running to a random healer they run to that pala who then either tanks them or bubbles/bop while the adds get stunned/aoe'd. for tanking this is all I remember I don't think there was anything else really special about who tanked what. hydross requires one tank in full frost resist gear and one tank in full nature resist gear. mother shaz required shadow resistance but I think that became less of a real issue later on. I remember using priest buff and the necklace you get from the BT attunement and that being enough SR, maybe tanks and dps need a bit more I can't remember. I don't think shadow resist was that important, resistances in general beyond hydross were not that important. even alar for example pretty sure this boss didn't require any fire resist, even though you would maybe think it would. the fight is pretty much all fire damage but you actually need 0 fire resist and this is pretty much the same throughout it was only really hydross where resistance gear was important and after that not so much.

[Mosha]

You don't need shamans, you need leatherworkers. amirite?

No you need 5 shamans more than you need any leather workers. 5 is the very minimum.

Also, the best comp for each fight is sort of silly, because I very highly doubt anyone is going to be swapping people in and out for fights, unless they are going for world record speed run or something.

But I solid BiS comp will look sometbing similar to this (btw if you ever here someone say “JUST STACK LOCKS/hunters”, they have no clue what they are talking about)

Group 1:
prot pally
Aff lock
Survival hunter
Resto druid
Resto shaman

Group 2:
Prot warrior
Arms warrior
Combat rogue
Ret Paladin
Enhance shaman

Group 3:
Bm hunters x3
Feral druid
Enhance shaman

Group 4:
3x destro lock
Boomkin
Ele shaman

Group 5
Mage
Shadow
Holy priest
Holy Paladin
Resto shaman

[AeneasBK]

Is 5 healers META enough for all the content?

Just asking as most guilds were running 6 or even 7 healers on my server in 25 mans. I'm not trying to claim they were any good, mind

[Echocho]

The most optimal composition is the one with people you enjoy playing with.

[garicasha]

I remember the optimal use of ret being standing outside Sunwell buffing people as they went in.

I'm also forgetting what a survival hunter brings to the table.

And again I wasn't a hardcore raider back then but I was told 2 prot warriors was optimal except for a pally tank on Hyjal trash.

But why 5 shamans if everyone can have leatherworking?

[Ettan]

Surv brings expose weakness.
As for drums its only 80 haste rating. A far cry from bloodlust.

That and well wf + wrath totem + mana tide.

[spaace]

Warlocks, Hunters, Shaman.... Horde Paladins. fotm.

Every rogue is going to have a hardon for glaves. (then you give it to your warrior, like my guild did in TBC LOL)





If you thought warrior/mage was bad in classic.. wait for TBC warlocks haha

[garicasha]

Wait so if drums is 80 haste, was bloodfury/heroism 30% haste? Could you have both? And there was no debuff on the individual, right?

[pewpmeiser]

why dont you just wait for BC to actually be a thing first

[Nitros14]

If we get the 2.0 versions tier 5 will be funny.

Lots of extremely busted encounters in there. Original Magtheridon and Solarian are pretty hilarious. And the incredibly bugged Al'ar. Along with awesome 1 hour trash respawns.

Lady Vashj with chains of kel'thuzad and Kael'thas but he kills all the healers at the start of phase 4.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ed-the-longest

#1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. (1 day from C'thun's death) 26th April 2006.
#2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
#3 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 83 days from General Vezax's death. (39 days from STARS' previous Ulduar kill) 7th July 2009
#4 Nefarian* - 75 days from Chromaggus' death. 26th September 2005. (15 minute respawn between attempts)
#5 Ragnaros* - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death (Limited Attempts). 25th April 2005.
#6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death. (24 days from Death Wish's previous tier 5 kill) 24th April 2007
#7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik the Harvester's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
#8 Lady Vashj* <Coilfang Matron> - 54 days from being unlocked. 5th May 2007 (17 days for Nihilum's bugged kill)
#9 Al'ar <Phoenix God> - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
#10 Heroic The Lich King* - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010 (Limited Attempts)
#11 Viscidus - 41 days from Fankriss the Unyielding's death. 5th March 2006.
#12 Heroic Al'Akir - 38 days from being unlocked. (3 days from Paragon's previous tier 11 kill) January 22nd 2011.
#13 The Lurker Below - 37 days from Gruul's death. (5 days from Morogrim Tidewalker's death.) 12th March 2007.
#14 Algalon the Observer* - 33 days from Firefighter. June 3rd 2009. (Limited Attempts)
#15 Morogrim Tidewalker - 32 days from Gruul's death. (1 day from Fathom-Lord Karathress' death.) 7th March 2007.
#16 tied Kael'thas Sunstrider <Lord of the Blood Elves> - 31 days from Solarian's death. 25th May 2007
#16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 31 days from being unlocked. (13 days from 3/5 Bastion of Twilight) 15th January 2011.
#16 tied Fathom-Lord Karathress - 31 days from Gruul's death. (2 days from Leotheras' death.) 6th March 2007.
#19 tied Magtheridon - 29 days from the first 70 raid kills. (21 days from Gruul's death) 24th February 2007
#19 tied Leotheras the Blind - 29 days from Gruul's death. (16 days from Hydross' death) 4th March 2007
#21 Heroic Nefarian - 25 days from being unlocked. (13 days from 5/6 Blackwing Descent) January 9th 2011.
#22 Mimiron Firefighter - 17 days from the opening of Ulduar. (8 days from Ensidia's previous Ulduar kill) May 1st 2009
#23 Ra-Den* - 16 days from Lei Shen's death. April 11th 2013 (Limited Attempts)
#24 Void Reaver - 15 days from Magtheridon's death. 11th March 2007
#25 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
#26 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
#26 tied Hydross the Unstable <Duke of Currents> - 13 days from Gruul's death. 16th February 2007
#28 tied Mythic: Kil'jaeden <The Deceiver> - 12 days from Fallen Avatar of Sargeras' death. 16th July 2017.
#28 tied Majordomo Executus - 12 days from Golemagg the Incinerator's death. 10th February 2005.
#30 tied Heroic Ragnaros (Firelands) - 11 days from Heroic Majordomo Staghelm's death. July 19th 2011.
#30 tied Onyxia - 11 days from the first 60 raid kills. January 19th 2005
#32 tied Archimonde <The Defiler> - 10 days from Azgalor's death. (6 days from Nihilum's previous tier 6 kill) 9th June 2007
#32 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
#34 tied Heroic Spine of Deathwing - 9 days from Heroic Blackhorn's death. 22nd December 2011
#34 tied Mythic: Archimonde <The Defiler> - 9 days from Mythic Mannoroth's death. 16th July 2015
#36 tied Mythic: Uu'nat <Harbinger of the Void> - 8 days from Mythic Restless Cabal's death. May 3rd 2019
#36 tied Mythic: Queen Azshara - 8 days from Mythic Za'qul's death. July 28th 2019.
#36 tied Sapphiron - 8 days from Four Horsemen dying. 2nd September 2006
#36 tied Gruul the Dragonkiller - 8 days from Maulgar's death. 3rd February 2007
#40 Magmadar - 7 days from Lucifron's death. 26th January 2005
#41 tied Mythic: Argus the Unmaker - 6 days from mythic Aggramar's death. December 13th 2017.
#41 tied Reliquary of Lost Souls - 6 days from Supremus' death. 2nd June 2007
#41 tied Heroic Lei Shen <The Thunder King> - 6 days from Twin Consorts' death. 26th March 2013.
#41 tied Heroic Garrosh Hellscream <Warchief> - 6 days from the death of the Paragons of the Klaxxi. 30th September 2013.
#45 tied Mythic: Lady Jaina Proudmoore - 5 days from the defeat of Mythic Stormwall Blockade. February 5th 2019.
#45 tied Kel'Thuzad - 5 days from Sapphiron's death. 7th September 2006
#45 tied Kil'jaeden <The Deceiver> - 5 days from the opening of the third Sunwell gate. 25th May 2008
#45 tied Mythic: Fallen Avatar of Sargeras - 5 days from mythic Maiden of Vigilance's death. July 4th 2017.
#45 tied Sinestra - 5 days from Heroic Cho'gall's death. January 20th 2011.
#45 tied Mythic: Blackhand <Warlord of the Blackrock> - 5 days from mythic Blast Furnace's destruction. February 20th 2015.
#45 tied Mythic: Gul'dan <Lord of the Shadow Council> - 5 days from mythic Elisande's death. February 4th 2017.
#45 tied Mythic: The Blast Furnace - 5 days from mythic Oregorger's death. (1 day from Method's previous Blackrock Foundry kill) February 15th 2015.
#45 tied Mythic: N'zoth the Corruptor - 5 days from the defeat of Mythic Carapace of N'zoth. February 6th 2020.


Honourable Mentions:
#54 Heroic Anub'arak* - 4 days from Heroic Twin Val'kyr's death. September 6th 2009. (Limited Attempts)
#54 M'uru/Entropius. 4 days from the opening of the second Sunwell gate. 4th May 2008
#54 Heroic Sha of Fear. 4 days from the death of Heroic Lei Shi. 24th November 2012.
#54 Heroic Dark Animus. 4 days from the death of Heroic Primordius. 17th March 2013.
#54 Thaddius. 4 days from Gluth's death. 30th June 2006.


Thanks to SK-Gaming's handy list of all time world firsts and wowprogress.com.

http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/163...rld_first_list

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