if you have to call one of these characters, a mary sue, which one would it be??

[FuxieDK]

If you really have to, not saying you do, but if you have to call one of them mary sue, which one would it be??

Jaina by a billion light years.

There is nothing remotely Mary Sue over Sylvanas, where Jaina is pretty much a text book example.

[Aresk]

Jaina is totally around and shown as the actual killer of Rastakhan. Watch the raid cinematic again.

I just rewatched it. When Rastakhan (presumably) screams, she's busy outside exchanging angry eyes with Nathanos. She's not present during the fight at all, and no where does it show her confronting him specifically. While she is leading the Alliance force, Genn and Shaw were the two Alliance figures running through the inner halls, and Genn is the one who issued the surrender to Rastakhan. The Alliance heroes are the ones who actually killed Rastakhan. I get that she's the face of the assault, and the assault led to Rastakhan's death, but given that the objective was to get his surrender and that she wasn't the one there when he died, I feel like Genn, not her, should be the one accused of regicide (or the Alliance characters, but Blizzard rarely credits them with anything).

[gurutikka]

Jaina by a billion light years.

There is nothing remotely Mary Sue over Sylvanas, where Jaina is pretty much a text book example.

Sylvanas is a villain sue

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Given that we have seen and even taken part in Jiana’s profess in power with things like the throne of thunder staff quest I’d say sylvanas is more of one if i had to pick with her just getting a massive powerboost off screen and doing what ever she needs with it while jiana sticks to known mage ability’s.

[Grazrug]

Sylvanas is a villain sue

Villain sues don't exist. The original Mary Sue story was a protagonist.

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Neither of them completely but Sylvanas is way, way closer.

I do like the Horde fanboys up in here insisting its actually Jaina though lol.

OH and Wyrt in here again complaining that the explanation for why Kul Tirans don't hate Jaina isn't what he wanted and thus pretending it didn't happen. Despite a concise, exact explanation here:

Nice way to generalize groups of people.

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I just rewatched it. When Rastakhan (presumably) screams, she's busy outside exchanging angry eyes with Nathanos. She's not present during the fight at all, and no where does it show her confronting him specifically. While she is leading the Alliance force, Genn and Shaw were the two Alliance figures running through the inner halls, and Genn is the one who issued the surrender to Rastakhan. The Alliance heroes are the ones who actually killed Rastakhan. I get that she's the face of the assault, and the assault led to Rastakhan's death, but given that the objective was to get his surrender and that she wasn't the one there when he died, I feel like Genn, not her, should be the one accused of regicide (or the Alliance characters, but Blizzard rarely credits them with anything).

The pc only exists by title. Not name. We are just at the palace to assist the leaders. And Jaina was the head of that attack.

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Jaina was talented from birth, she is disciplined and hardworker, trained in dalaran since she was a child, was taught by the leader of the kirin tor himself, has the staff of the thunder king and was even taught by kalecgos and despite all of that, she is not as powerful as everyone makes her to be.

Oh but she is that powerful. Nobody else soloed an entire ocean freezing and survived a raid fight without even limping.

[Super Dickmann]

Power-wise there's absolutely no contest. There's only one hostile raid boss in the game where your victory condition sees you neither foiling them nor dealing any damage and where you, as a member of the opposite faction, are obligated to help them out in the very next patch. Coincidentally, that same raid boss is a character who 10k year old Nightborne wizards look up to for magical guidance, can teleport without trouble to the capital of the other faction and has only not ended the war with ease because the writing doesn't properly assess what they had her do. Sylvanas has an explanation for her power up across an expansion and started out that expansion needing help to take on Malfurion, while in previous expansions she's been taken out by a bullet to the head. Jaina is not even mildly inconvenienced by the same group of people who've defeated Argus and now N'zoth and her power spikes apropo of nothing from her last major appearance. The Thunder King staff thing is bullshit, since she never actually uses it ever again and she's markedly weaker in War Crimes.

Plot convenience-wise, "My entire country decides to embrace love and peace because I had a flashback that proved the exact opposite, and I'm a victim in ToW despite being the aggressor in Cataclysm" ranks about the same as "Oh, I was actually winning all along, despite failing at every turn".

[Yoshingo]

The pc only exists by title. Not name. We are just at the palace to assist the leaders. And Jaina was the head of that attack

Genn and Mathias Shaw were at Rastakhan when he died, not Jaina lol. You don't get to just blame her for it because it helps your bad argument. Sorry.

Oh but she is that powerful. Nobody else soloed an entire ocean freezing and survived a raid fight without even limping.

She didn't freeze the entire ocean lol. Do you even know how frozen water in open seas actually works? Sea Ice? No? Might want to look it up.

Also plenty of bosses survive raid fights and then just come back, that's no sign of anything. The game even states that she's been injured, I donno what else you wanted to happen. A snuff film of Jaina bleeding out and moaning in pain as she limped away?

[Minikin]

Jaina wasn't unharmed, as she had to spend some time recovering from the Battle of Dazar'alor in Boralus. Also other final raid bosses who survived their encounters include Kael'thas in the Eye, Garrosh Hellscream in SoO, Gul'dan in the Nighthold (though he's killed shortly afterward by Illidan), Helya in the Trial of Valor (confirmed to still be alive in BfA), and most recently Azshara from the Eternal Palace.

lol oh damn. thats a list lol.

[Itisamuh]

Jaina, by far.

[Super Dickmann]

lol oh damn. thats a list lol.

It's also a disingenuous one. Of those, Kael'thas is functionally dead at the end and has to be resurrected much weaker and we foil his plans in TK. Garrosh loses and is put in chains. Gul'dan has already been foiled, Illidan just finishes him off and Azshara is crawling on the ground and requires N'zoth to bail her out. Ditto, Helya is at least disrupted and Odyn is freed. Jaina is neither foiled - since she succeeds in what she aimed to do, that being delaying the PCs and securing the escape of most of the army - nor injured, there's an off-hand line about how she's still recovering, but that's in a cutscene five seconds later and she's completely functional the next time we see her. Not even her health bar is down, for fuck's sake.

If she'd have to recover for the next patch, not only would that make the fight more meaningful while preserving Jaina's tactical victory in achieving her goal for the Alliance and so putting them in the lead, but the plot would make more sense. In 8.1.5 it'd exacerbate why Derek is a danger to her and why Jaina considers it a risk for herself to go meet with Baine, whereas normally she'd be able to ice everyone there with ease. In 8.2, with Jaina not at her best for a while there'd be a reason why she doesn't just lift the ships as they tumble into the abyss at Nazjatar and either give her a mini-story where she buffs back up there with the help of the samurai fish or Bob or focus on Shandris more. The benefits are endless.

[Devilyaki]

None, they are not blank slates were someone can easily be put in their shoes. Ones a weird under mysterious undead nut the other a heavy past mage gripping on sanity and trying coupe with a ever changing future.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

None of them are mary-sues.

[Grazrug]

Power-wise there's absolutely no contest. There's only one hostile raid boss in the game where your victory condition sees you neither foiling them nor dealing any damage and where you, as a member of the opposite faction, are obligated to help them out in the very next patch. Coincidentally, that same raid boss is a character who 10k year old Nightborne wizards look up to for magical guidance, can teleport without trouble to the capital of the other faction and has only not ended the war with ease because the writing doesn't properly assess what they had her do. Sylvanas has an explanation for her power up across an expansion and started out that expansion needing help to take on Malfurion, while in previous expansions she's been taken out by a bullet to the head. Jaina is not even mildly inconvenienced by the same group of people who've defeated Argus and now N'zoth and her power spikes apropo of nothing from her last major appearance. The Thunder King staff thing is bullshit, since she never actually uses it ever again and she's markedly weaker in War Crimes.

Plot convenience-wise, "My entire country decides to embrace love and peace because I had a flashback that proved the exact opposite, and I'm a victim in ToW despite being the aggressor in Cataclysm" ranks about the same as "Oh, I was actually winning all along, despite failing at every turn".

This pretty much yes. Dickmann spreading wisdom.

[Minikin]

It's also a disingenuous one. Of those, Kael'thas is functionally dead at the end and has to be resurrected much weaker and we foil his plans in TK. Garrosh loses and is put in chains. Gul'dan has already been foiled, Illidan just finishes him off and Azshara is crawling on the ground and requires N'zoth to bail her out. Ditto, Helya is at least disrupted and Odyn is freed. Jaina is neither foiled - since she succeeds in what she aimed to do, that being delaying the PCs and securing the escape of most of the army - nor injured, there's an off-hand line about how she's still recovering, but that's in a cutscene five seconds later and she's completely functional the next time we see her. Not even her health bar is down, for fuck's sake.

If she'd have to recover for the next patch, not only would that make the fight more meaningful while preserving Jaina's tactical victory in achieving her goal for the Alliance and so putting them in the lead, but the plot would make more sense. In 8.1.5 it'd exacerbate why Derek is a danger to her and why Jaina considers it a risk for herself to go meet with Baine, whereas normally she'd be able to ice everyone there with ease. In 8.2, with Jaina not at her best for a while there'd be a reason why she doesn't just lift the ships as they tumble into the abyss at Nazjatar and either give her a mini-story where she buffs back up there with the help of the samurai fish or Bob or focus on Shandris more. The benefits are endless.

i dont disagree but he claimed "only one to ever come out of a fight unharmed". By just that, Jaina did get harmed, same as Garrosh or Azshara. Just the end result wasnt one in chains or imprisonment for torture. Had he said, "only one ever to come out of a fight ahead" then he would have been 100% correct.


p.s: you missed adding a certain shirt to your wardrobe by a hairs breadth. How do you feel about that.

[Axzel]

"If you have to call either a toyota or a kitchen table a mango, which would you choose?"

[NuLogic]

Technically neither of them are mary sue's because they're not the protagonist's of wow.

If you referring to who has more unexplained plot convenience I'd say sylvanas. Magic users of wow lore have always been powerful like Kel'thuzad or guldan. Ranger's and banshee's on the other hand are not.

I understand sylvanas made a deal with the jailer but how the fuck i she so good at using the newly acquired power? She has never used complex magic mostly just shrieking and raising mindless skeletons.

[Aresk]

It's also a disingenuous one. Of those, Kael'thas is functionally dead at the end and has to be resurrected much weaker and we foil his plans in TK. Garrosh loses and is put in chains. Gul'dan has already been foiled, Illidan just finishes him off and Azshara is crawling on the ground and requires N'zoth to bail her out. Ditto, Helya is at least disrupted and Odyn is freed. Jaina is neither foiled - since she succeeds in what she aimed to do, that being delaying the PCs and securing the escape of most of the army - nor injured, there's an off-hand line about how she's still recovering, but that's in a cutscene five seconds later and she's completely functional the next time we see her. Not even her health bar is down, for fuck's sake.

If she'd have to recover for the next patch, not only would that make the fight more meaningful while preserving Jaina's tactical victory in achieving her goal for the Alliance and so putting them in the lead, but the plot would make more sense. In 8.1.5 it'd exacerbate why Derek is a danger to her and why Jaina considers it a risk for herself to go meet with Baine, whereas normally she'd be able to ice everyone there with ease. In 8.2, with Jaina not at her best for a while there'd be a reason why she doesn't just lift the ships as they tumble into the abyss at Nazjatar and either give her a mini-story where she buffs back up there with the help of the samurai fish or Bob or focus on Shandris more. The benefits are endless.

Garrosh is saved from Y'shaarj's influence and maneuvered into a place where he gets to head out to a whole new world and start up his own Horde, again. Yeah, we foil his plans for Stormwind, but we put him in a strong position (where he again tries to destroy Stormwind). I fully agree that I wouldn't count Gul'dan. Azshara is the only person that we fail to foil the plan (N'zoth is freed), escapes relatively unharmed (we see no permanent damage to her), and then we help in the next (major) content patch (by freeing her from N'zoth's clutches). I'm sure I'm missing other hostile survivals among raid bosses. Mekkatorque we fail to kill and inadvertently help in the next major content patch by helping out the mechagnomes that later save him; he is out of commission for awhile, but I can't say that I really noticed his absence (they could've put in situations where someone mentions he could've helped the Alliance, just to show that his loss was actually somewhat impactful).

Other instances of hostile raid bosses not dying include Ragnaros (foiled but only banished back to the plane of fire); the titan keepers Ra-den, Freya, Mimiron, Thorim, and Hodir (the fact that their goals aligned with ours, despite the initial hostility, greatly lessens the impact of not killing them); Algalon (he wasn't really foiled; we persuaded him not to kill us all by hitting him a lot, because we are the best at diplomacy); Tsulong and Lei Shi (similar to Titan Keepers).

And I like the version of events that you weave for 8.1.5. Alliance players are informed that she has to recover and isn't at full strength, but they could've delivered on that a lot better.

[Super Dickmann]

i dont disagree but he claimed "only one to ever come out of a fight unharmed". By just that, Jaina did get harmed, same as Garrosh or Azshara. Just the end result wasnt one in chains or imprisonment for torture. Had he said, "only one ever to come out of a fight ahead" then he would have been 100% correct.

Garrosh is saved from Y'shaarj's influence and maneuvered into a place where he gets to head out to a whole new world and start up his own Horde, again. Yeah, we foil his plans for Stormwind, but we put him in a strong position (where he again tries to destroy Stormwind). I fully agree that I wouldn't count Gul'dan. Azshara is the only person that we fail to foil the plan (N'zoth is freed), escapes relatively unharmed (we see no permanent damage to her), and then we help in the next (major) content patch (by freeing her from N'zoth's clutches). I'm sure I'm missing other hostile survivals among raid bosses. Mekkatorque we fail to kill and inadvertently help in the next major content patch by helping out the mechagnomes that later save him; he is out of commission for awhile, but I can't say that I really noticed his absence (they could've put in situations where someone mentions he could've helped the Alliance, just to show that his loss was actually somewhat impactful).

It's true that other raid bosses survive, but when I'm referencing foiling or suffering and to simplify what I'm getting at even further it's that even where bosses survived, especially end bosses like KJ or Garrosh, something was achieved in the process of the battle. It's not that Jaina wasn't chained or tortured or that we didn't kill her, it's that whether the battle took place or not, absolutely nothing would change. Garrosh and KJ are good examples - Garrosh survives the encounter and can, thanks to outside factors, still achieve things, but as a result of the encounter, the Heart of Y'shaarj is destroyed, he is taken captive and the Horde he leads is defeated. Had everyone just gone home, things would be radically different - the status quo changes and the character is affected by the consequences of it. Likewise KJ - yes, KJ does not die, and being a demon he's mildly inconvenienced, but his plan is foiled and he's dragged back to the Twisting Nether, stopping his invasion of Azeroth.

Even Azshara, another end boss that survives has her raid encounter matter exponentially - after all, it's the process by which N'zoth is freed and though she survives, she goes from Queen of the naga to N'zoth's prisoner and we see with our own eyes that we have defeated her, she's crawling on the ground and only survives because the Old God bails her out. By comparison, if the PC and all his friends had just let Jaina bail after the Blockade absolutely nothing about the chain of events would change. Hell, it might be mildly improved because we wouldn't then be trying to help her next time around after we fought her to (our own) death the patch before. The battle is futile - Jaina has already won and suffers no change of circumstance from before it. No other raid boss has that circumstance, let alone an end raid boss, let alone an end raid boss explicitly associated with a faction.

Compare Mekkatorque becoming a vegetable and Rastakhan dying - those are consequences. A throw-away line that she's recovering doesn't mean much when it's never brought up after or affect her conduct or actions. Mekkatorque, who also survived, was taken out for multiple patches and had recovering him be a whole questline that changed the character's place in the world by making him the head of two races and turning him into Iron Gnome. Jaina could've been sipping coffee during the time the raid whacked at her and it'd have been just the same.

p.s: you missed adding a certain shirt to your wardrobe by a hairs breadth. How do you feel about that.

Harrowed by what a close call it was. The 8.3 PTR datamining thread was some rollercoaster shit.

[Mehrunes]

For all people bemoan Jaina as a Mary Sue, she doesn't really do that much to move the story forward and most of her actions end up mitigated by the Alliance not being allowed to make major headway against the Horde. She's basically there to look flashy. The exception is the end of the Kul Tiras arc, but we all knew that was a foregone conclusion. Her 'mistakes' also get called out a lot by other characters.

Driving the plot forward is neither here nor there when it comes to Mary Sues.

Sylvanas meanwhile has been the point that the story spins on for three expansions. Characters will turn into jibbering, ineffectual morons at her mere presence for no more reason than, "Sylvanas needs to be able to do the thing."

You mean the Sylvanas who had multiple opportunities to defeat her enemies and did nothing? Or the Sylvanas who mostly sat on her ass in Orgrimmar all this time, letting the traitors walk all over her for no reason? Like, what cases of "Sylvanas needs to be able to do the thing" are you even talking about when she barely did anything and the few things she did like trying to brainwash Derek have been sabotaged by her opponents?

Also for the people saying Jaina's power is unexplained and Sylvanas is. She's been touted as an extremely gifted mage as far back as WC3 and that the Thunder King raids made her staff a conduit for some serious magical mojo.

It DIDN'T. Stop spreading something that has already been obviously false in MoP, before Chronicle v1 gave u even more evidence as to why it was false. Because we've already had devs talking about how Lei Shen was powering up the palace during 5.2. Making it clear that the rumors on which Jaina was acting (and she herself makes it clear in turn that those were indeed rumors) that Lei Shen's source of power was hidden in the throne room of his palace were false. It was completely the other way around. And then Chronicle v1 explained in detail how Lei Shen's power is what he stole from Ra.

Jaina had the player drain nothing more than stale air into her staff because she was acting on wishful thinking and dreams. The actual person to get Lei Shen's power was Wrathion, which is also something we could already see in 5.2. And prior to her bullshit in BfA Jaina has been gifted at teleportation magic. When it came to combat she couldn't even give Thalen a nosebleed when attacking him with lethal intent with all her might. Suddenly, without him getting a chance to even defend himself. And since he was a prisoner at the time he wouldn't be able to do anything even if she warned him.

Sylvanas meanwhile, we've never even had characters in-universe act like she's had a power up, spending most of BfA believing "oh she was always like that" until BlizzCon handwaves it as "yeah it was the Jailer I guess."

Because unlike Jaina Sylvanas has been strong since the moment of her resurrection. She was so unintentionally strong that it concerned Arthas about its possible future repercussions. Even though she was still his slave and he didn't even entertain the thought of a Scourge member ever breaking free from the Lich King at that time.

Jaina wasn't unharmed, as she had to spend some time recovering from the Battle of Dazar'alor in Boralus. Also other final raid bosses who survived their encounters include Kael'thas in the Eye, Garrosh Hellscream in SoO, Gul'dan in the Nighthold (though he's killed shortly afterward by Illidan), Helya in the Trial of Valor (confirmed to still be alive in BfA), and most recently Azshara from the Eternal Palace.

Kael had to be impaled by a giant Fel crystal to keep him together. Garrosh got captured because he was in no position to fight anymore. Gul'dan got his Fel empowerment beaten out of him. Helya seemingly died and came back only because she's a death entity. Azshara got impaled by tentacle porn. Meanwhile what did Jaina get? A paper cut when she was writing the report of her effortless escape to Anduin?

Jaina was talented from birth, she is disciplined and hardworker, trained in dalaran since she was a child, was taught by the leader of the kirin tor himself, has the staff of the thunder king and was even taught by kalecgos and despite all of that, she is not as powerful as everyone makes her to be.

Jaina doesn't have the "staff of the Thunder King". She doesn't even have a staff imbued with the power of the Thunder King (which is what the quest was actually about) because she was acting on false information. And all of that training in Dalaran since she was a child resulted in her not even phasing Thalen when she surprised him with an attack into which she poured all of her might.

[Grazrug]

i dont disagree but he claimed "only one to ever come out of a fight unharmed". By just that, Jaina did get harmed, same as Garrosh or Azshara. Just the end result wasnt one in chains or imprisonment for torture. Had he said, "only one ever to come out of a fight ahead" then he would have been 100% correct.


p.s: you missed adding a certain shirt to your wardrobe by a hairs breadth. How do you feel about that.

Jaina made sure the Alliance achieved all their goals before teleporting away.

Zandalari Fleet destroyed.
Alliance fleet got away.
Gelbin survived.
Rastakhan dead.
Vaults plundered.
Retreated secured.
Zandalar kingdom not participating anymore after 8.1.5.

5 minutes later she's fine, unharmed, talking to Baine, after laughing the horde PC onto the face and freezing the ocean(power boost).

Bruh. There's no way around that these check marks fit the Mary Sue trope more then anything.