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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    Except DK's have good representation on arena ladders and pro-competitions, so clearly they don't suffer from egregious uptime issues. I don't really agree with comparing them to ret paladins because rets don't have innate slow resistance, their slow can be dispelled, and they don't have death grip.
    Oh I wasn't saying they're bad. But one of their weaknesses is that they're slow, immobile, and can be kited.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by barrsftw View Post
    Oh I wasn't saying they're bad. But one of their weaknesses is that they're slow, immobile, and can be kited.
    I like how you didn't even read a word of what he said and just repeated this "DK's can be easily kited" phrase you're saying, which isn't even true.
    change can't wait.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    I like how you didn't even read a word of what he said and just repeated this "DK's can be easily kited" phrase you're saying, which isn't even true.
    I read what he said, that's why I responded.

    DKs have good representation in arena despite being easily kited. It's why the popular DK comps are usually paired with classes that can negate that weakness and or capitalize on the moments when the DK can hit the target. Prime example being a WW monk, which is probably the most popular pairing at high MMR. They have and/or have had in the past: freedom, roots, ride the wind, etc, on top of some of of the best mobility.

  4. #64
    This shit is balanced around the people that know how to play their class. If you see DKs getting nerfed in some area, it's because they're too strong in that area in higher level play. If you feel that this isn't correct, then you're probably not one of those people playing at a higher level. DHs haven't received a nerf because in pvp, they're pretty mediocre. If you shut down their damage, which isn't difficult, they can't self heal at all.

    This isn't about your feelings, it's about data.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Dald View Post
    This shit is balanced around the people that know how to play their class. If you see DKs getting nerfed in some area, it's because they're too strong in that area in higher level play. If you feel that this isn't correct, then you're probably not one of those people playing at a higher level. DHs haven't received a nerf because in pvp, they're pretty mediocre. If you shut down their damage, which isn't difficult, they can't self heal at all.

    This isn't about your feelings, it's about data.
    DHs are not mediocre rofl

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by walle87 View Post
    They clearly needed a nerf. Well, maybe not frost, but unholy for sure. I've seen uholy dks living far too long figthing 4 people. And they can still manage do to some serious damage. They also have a ranged stun, a grip, a ranged interrupt and chains of ice. I don't buy the slowest melee class argument with the toolkit they got.
    Doesn't matter if buy the argument or not, the fact is that they 100% are. And have been for a very very long time. They have no gap closers where they can chase down someone easily with how easy it is to remove CC's, stun/slow them down. This has been a major issue for them for a very very long time.

    Warrior, rogue, monk, druid. Name one of those that a DK is more mobile than.

    Go ahead, I'll wait.

  7. #67
    Mechagnome Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    Doesn't matter if buy the argument or not, the fact is that they 100% are. And have been for a very very long time. They have no gap closers where they can chase down someone easily with how easy it is to remove CC's, stun/slow them down. This has been a major issue for them for a very very long time.

    Warrior, rogue, monk, druid. Name one of those that a DK is more mobile than.

    Go ahead, I'll wait.
    Only factoring mobility is incorrect, when it comes to melee how well they maintain uptime is a factor that must be considered, DK's can be kited, but they don't struggled maintaining dps uptime because they stick exceptionally well to their targets. Hence the nerfs.
    Honorary member of the Baine fanclub, the only member really.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    Only factoring mobility is incorrect, when it comes to melee how well they maintain uptime is a factor that must be considered, DK's can be kited, but they don't struggled maintaining dps uptime because they stick exceptionally well to their targets. Hence the nerfs.
    Frost/blood have it pretty bad. Unholy DK's can to some degree, but only in BGs. In arena matches 2200+, its very hard for a dk to do that consistently. Hamstring can't be dispelled, and they have 2 charges plus leap. Druids can shape shift to never be slowed, plus roots, stuns. Monks are just silly, no need to explain them. And Rogues are even stronger than the previous 3. DK's are the weakest toolkit when it comes to that even still.

  9. #69
    Mechagnome Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    Frost/blood have it pretty bad. Unholy DK's can to some degree, but only in BGs. In arena matches 2200+, its very hard for a dk to do that consistently. Hamstring can't be dispelled, and they have 2 charges plus leap. Druids can shape shift to never be slowed, plus roots, stuns. Monks are just silly, no need to explain them. And Rogues are even stronger than the previous 3. DK's are the weakest toolkit when it comes to that even still.
    https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=3v3&faction=



    Yeah I agree with you to some degree, however my point is that even with this weakness, they still have decent rep in the top echelon of arena, suggesting that it really isn't that glaring of a weakness. We will see if the overtuned death-strike was carrying them tho.
    Honorary member of the Baine fanclub, the only member really.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Shao View Post
    All classes have a similar toolkit, for example pallys have all the utility below + heals and Divine Steed



    I don't see them nerfing Flash of Light or anything...

    DKs were fine, I don't think a healing nerf was warranted.
    But they'll survive...
    I’m sure flash of light is already nerfed in pvp. But you’d need a 4 stack of selfless healer to counter act the healing of a death strike.

    Again death strikes biggest strength is after you’ve been slapped in the face with a bolt or Gpy. Something a flash of light or a healing surge doesn’t help much with

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    RP is more important for frost than unholy yes, but more dks tend to play unholy.

    You find that most frost dks just spam howl for cleave anyway, it’s all about the big chill streak cleave. So don’t worry about wasting it all on frost strikes, do that and you’ll cleave stuff down in a remorseless aoe m+ play style

  11. #71
    oh, its only in pvp ?

    LOL

    who cares ?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=3v3&faction=



    Yeah I agree with you to some degree, however my point is that even with this weakness, they still have decent rep in the top echelon of arena, suggesting that it really isn't that glaring of a weakness. We will see if the overtuned death-strike was carrying them tho.
    It's their dot dmg really. The ability to deal dmg and keep pressure up while not in melee range is fairly unique to them. Only Feral druids play similarly. Frost DK's aren't there, its only unholy, as it has been for several seasons now.

    Having played DK both Frost and Unholy during BFA, chasing people down is basically the entire fight. And without the quasi ranged spec they have, it would be impossible to be competitive if they didn't have it. I never broke 2200 during BFA ( didn't play as much ), I'm not some all star, but the issues I was having as the same issues I see the DKs during the tournaments have. And even with those metrics you linked, only warrior is under represented for melee. Which they should be, as they're imo, the worst one even though they're highly mobile. Just not enough in their toolkit compared to a monk or a rogue who do the same things just so much better.

  13. #73
    Pit Lord msdos's Avatar
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    This entire thread is Unholy vs. the world. People aren't actually talking about Frost and Blood, because they know those 2 are bottom feeding, irredeemably bad, with very bad toolkits and damage. All Blood really does in PVP is self heal and Frost can't even use it's best last row talent, all it does is launch chillstreaks and try to blow people up in the first minute, after that it's basically game over.

    But here we are and blanket nerfs.. Noice. And Unholy wasn't even good until they revamped their honor talents, then the abom had to be nerfed like 2 or 3 times. This is the DK story and why I'm not gonna play one in Shadowlands. The DK design team is just clueless.
    Last edited by msdos; 2020-02-27 at 07:39 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    DHs are not mediocre rofl
    The rather low representation across all regions at 2.2k+ says otherwise. They're average at best.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Dald View Post
    The rather low representation across all regions at 2.2k+ says otherwise. They're average at best.
    They aren't rogues are just super overpowering and a better pick atm and DHs are much stronger in 2s than 3s. They also don't fit as well with windwallers as DKs which is the real reason dk representation is high because WW got some massive buffs this patch.

  16. #76
    Pandaren Monk Tyrannica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dald View Post
    The rather low representation across all regions at 2.2k+ says otherwise. They're average at best.
    ratings and arena aside, they are far more powerful and also easy to play in PvE.

    Since BfA is really only about PvE even r1 players had to do tons of it to stay competitive, especially in 8.3. to get their hands on high tier corruption gear, i can see how people missunderstand the class power scalings.

    Like many other classes, dhs are greatly nerfed in pvp combat. They do far less damage and leech in pvp than pve and have to use their mobility kit more effecient in pvp as well, while in pve you just spam your way out and are good to go.

    The demonic build is far easier to use than the momentum build as well and dumbs down the class.

    So people dislike the class for various reasions - but think its also some kind of raid boss, while in fact a DH dies even faster than most other classe when stunned and hit by burst, they do not really have a way out of stuns or any other hard cc.

    For example a DK can do a lot while stunned, he is escpecially as orc or human, almost stun immune. IBF is usable in stuns there is not a single class def cds usable in stuns for the DH, you had to do your def mechancis before a stun could hit you.

    Sucks if you play a class without stuns and burst and face a DH, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    This entire thread is Unholy vs. the world. People aren't actually talking about Frost and Blood, because they know those 2 are bottom feeding, irredeemably bad, with very bad toolkits and damage. All Blood really does in PVP is self heal and Frost can't even use it's best last row talent, all it does is launch chillstreaks and try to blow people up in the first minute, after that it's basically game over.

    But here we are and blanket nerfs.. Noice. And Unholy wasn't even good until they revamped their honor talents, then the abom had to be nerfed like 2 or 3 times. This is the DK story and why I'm not gonna play one in Shadowlands. The DK design team is just clueless.
    DK design team? i doubt they even have a class design team...

    Frost needs a complete redesign.

    I only consider pvp with this spec again if:

    there is 2hand spec and obliterate does more or equal damage than a dhs chaos strike right now this hits like a wet noodle, a disgrace to former frost dk design.

    frost spec gets unique toolkit/Utility and def cds that are strong enough to be recognized by opponents and are baseline

    more mobility - frost does need it more than unholy - due how frost works wouldn't mind some way of teleports through ice mirrors or something like that, well for that we need creative devs, i am afraid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    DHs are not mediocre rofl
    not in 2s arena and in pve they are probably the best melee class.

    But in pvp where it counts, in 3vs3 arena as well as BGs they used to be probably mediocre until 8.3, in these brackets burst is king, they lack burst in demonic, however that is now fixed with corruption gear like infinite stars tier 3.

    Some r1 DHs have this and it means they burst like anyone else while dealing high sustained dmg as long as they do not get shut down by cc or even killed in a stun, which they are weak, too.

    So yeah a high skilled(and corrupted) arena team with a DH can do some nasty things in 8.3.

    The patch is not long out, give it time when more people have the best corruption and we will see who is best.

    The lastest nerfs, to demonic armor, DS and mage absorbs where not targeted at class balance at all, but corruption gear balance, the intend is obviously to reduce survival and hand out burst to anyone for a more fast paced pvp expierence. ;>

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