You can get Banned for Ninja Looting in Classic

[Bhanzai]

you make a raid,no loot rules are established,boss dies,you steal everything and leave,thats ninja looting,and he wont be banned under blizz rules

Yes, that would be considered ninja looting by the other raiders (I assume any way) and they would probably report it but since no loot rules were announced, most likely nothing would happen to the ninja by blizzard.

[arkanon]

If you think anyone needed a thread with this subject line, I have a bridge for sale I'd like to show you.

This has been around for over a decade, literally. This policy was in during what is probably one of the first MMOs, Everquest. And most MMO's after that carried over similar policies. If you needed this info to understand why someone would get banned for ninja looting? Then you need more help than an internet forum can offer someone, but it was a 100% pointless thread.

Once it was established that yes, blizzard have a firm definition of what does and does not meet the requirements of "ninja looting", the conversation shifted to the fact you get infracted under the SCAM policy, not a stand alone "ninja looting" policy. This is perfectly in line with all other blizzard products, and most ToS etc, where they dont individually list every single little thing you could be infracted for, but instead list the broader subject "cheating" or "communication" or in this case, "SCAM".

Blizzard have defined ninja looting as having clearly defined and communicated loot rules, and then choosing to go against those rules. When this scenario occurs, it falls under the "scam" policy.

So for some reason, this is a difficult concept to grasp, and as such the conversation is now going around and around in circles.

[Necromantic]

Once it was established that yes, blizzard have a firm definition of what does and does not meet the requirements of "ninja looting", the conversation shifted to the fact you get infracted under the SCAM policy, not a stand alone "ninja looting" policy. This is perfectly in line with all other blizzard products, and most ToS etc, where they dont individually list every single little thing you could be infracted for, but instead list the broader subject "cheating" or "communication" or in this case, "SCAM".

Blizzard have defined ninja looting as having clearly defined and communicated loot rules, and then choosing to go against those rules. When this scenario occurs, it falls under the "scam" policy.

So for some reason, this is a difficult concept to grasp, and as such the conversation is now going around and around in circles.

I believe that many know this but choose to only accept what they feel is their definition. I don’t blame them. Some forms of harassment will not be intervened by Blizzard but that doesn’t make them any less of harassment.

Blizzard wants something quantifiable rather than the consensus’s view of shady.

[IIamaKing]

12 pages for this? Its been known for quite a LOOOOONNNGGGG time that posting loot rules in /r or whatever and then not following those rules is ban worthy.

[arkanon]

I'm saying reporting a player because you didn't get loot is immature. The guy joined a guild run as one of a handful of PUGs, knew the run was partial loot council, then threw a fit when he didn't get an item because the LC deemed him to have not done anything to earn loot.

BTW I would argue that you definitely didn't "earn loot" if you showed up to Vael with 90% broken gear (inc weapons) and had to use your bow for the whole fight as a rogue, when you weren't otherwise just standing there doing nothing. Showing up to a raid and getting carried doesn't mean you "earn" loot in any capacity. Simply entering BWL doesn't mean you're entitled to roll on items and get loot in a LC raid.

ITT: There seem to be a lot of people who are either arguing in bad faith or never actually watched the clips from the stream and are making a whole bunch of assumptions.

What about if you are one of the better dps players in there, but you die almost immediately to a mechanic and are dead for the entire encounter - what then? no loot? What if you DC? What if the tank misses a taunt and almost causes a wipe, and has to be rezzed, no loot for that tank?

[Daymanmb]

you make a raid,no loot rules are established,boss dies,you steal everything and leave,thats ninja looting,and he wont be banned under blizz rules

Yeh thats not ninja looting. Sorry to break it to you. Theres only ninja looting when loot rules are established and something is taken despite those rules.

[zhero]

I had no idea Did you knew this?

It happened to a streamer called Payo (one of my favorite streamers btw)

The GM Ticket reads "We verified a violation of our code of conduct involving a raid loot scam"
only a 3 day ban though

When it happened on stream:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/556654691?t=1h45m28s

Note that i have no idea if this streamer actually deserved the ban or not.
Thats not the discussion.
I simply had no idea you could be banned in Classic for Ninja Looting.

Thoughts?

they used to ban people for lying about loot rules and then taking everything. when people joined raids with the belief they had a chance at getting something and then master looter just took everything, they screwed people out of their weekly lockout.

the people theorycrafting in stream how/why he got banned just shows how you cannot trust what people say in the forums. trying to call it an automated thing when the GM legit chatted with him before banning him shows that have no idea what they saying.

[Nymfomania]

I used to run vault back in the day for the mount and def ninja the mount for my self or kicked out anyone under a certain level of dps, and made people roll. But for the dps i made it known when i was building the raid. God people would rage.

[Askyl]

Yeh thats not ninja looting. Sorry to break it to you. Theres only ninja looting when loot rules are established and something is taken despite those rules.

What he described is pretty much exactly what a ninja looter is. But ok.

[gutnbrg]

You seem to be right.
Even though the act of Ninja Looting was never a bannable offense by itself. It seems it was, since vanilla, a bannable offense IF the leader types in chat the loot rules and goes against them.

From WoWWiki:

Blizzard's official policy - Ninja Looting
Blizzard will usually only take action for a blatant scam, such as a raid leader declaring free rolls in chat and then master-looting everything to himself. They will not intervene if there was no prior agreement (and cannot if the agreement was made over Ventrilo or a private forum- it has to be in game, where they can check logs). In any PuG raid, ask the raid leader to state the loot policy explicitly in chat.

yes, sorry to call u dumb earlier, was having bad day

[Daymanmb]

What he described is pretty much exactly what a ninja looter is. But ok.

Except, the defining aspect of "no loot rules were broken".

[jackofwind]

What about if you are one of the better dps players in there, but you die almost immediately to a mechanic and are dead for the entire encounter - what then? no loot? What if you DC? What if the tank misses a taunt and almost causes a wipe, and has to be rezzed, no loot for that tank?

A dead player who shows up fully buffed and ready to go has potential DPS. A player who shows up with broken weapons and gear does not. There's a difference between a mistake in execution and showing up, quite literally, completely unprepared. If I joined a raid as a DPS and had no gear on I would not expect, in any way whatsoever, that I would be eligible for loot. Either you're arguing in bad faith or you're just trying to prolong this stupid discussion by coming up with nonsense hypotheticals.

The real issue here is that they didn't notice that he hadn't come prepared and just kicked him immediately.

I mean shit, you don't even get banned for intentionally inviting people to a cleared raid ID and screwing them out of their lockouts, and that's not something that you can even really account or plan for if you join a PUG.

[arkanon]

A dead player who shows up fully buffed and ready to go has potential DPS.

The real issue here is that they didn't notice that he hadn't come prepared and just kicked him immediately.

Dead players do have potential dps. 0dps. Their potential dps is zero.

But, i am glad we agree that the issue lies with the raid leader who invited an unprepared and under geared player, and failed to address the situation correctly, and within the rules laid out by Blizzard.

[jackofwind]

Dead players do have potential dps. 0dps. Their potential dps is zero.

But, i am glad we agree that the issue lies with the raid leader who invited an unprepared and under geared player, and failed to address the situation correctly, and within the rules laid out by Blizzard.

That's not what potential DPS means (as long as the player is alive at the start of the encounter). You're not that dumb.

[arkanon]

That's not what potential DPS means (as long as the player is alive at the start of the encounter). You're not that dumb.

But they are not alive, they are dead. So by your same logic, this rogue had potential dps, if they had simply repaired. See how that works?

You are entirely confused about what potential dps means, not me. The potential dps of a dead player is 0 - that is not up for debate.

[jackofwind]

But they are not alive, they are dead. So by your same logic, this rogue had potential dps, if they had simply repaired. See how that works?

You are entirely confused about what potential dps means, not me. The potential dps of a dead player is 0 - that is not up for debate.

Sure, I initially wrote it out in a way that I assumed you'd be able to understand, which was obviously my mistake. A player who is actively dead has no potential DPS, but that's not what I was getting at in the context of this actual topic. Arguing the kind of semantics you are is just stupid and should be beneath you. Forum gotcha is a stupid game for stupid people.

Potential DPS describes the maximum output one could readily expect a player to have on a boss immediately at the start of the encounter. Things like gear, world buffs and consumes increase potential DPS, having broken gear, non-max skills, etc. reduces potential DPS.

"The Rogue" has no potential DPS, or extremely low potential DPS, because he is standing at Vael ready to pull with broken weapons and gear. He is not going to repair prior to the pull, he's as ready as he'll ever be. His potential DPS is extremely low, because even if he lives through the entire fight his output is being limited.

"Raider X" has full world buffs and consumables and shockingly unbroken gear, and is also standing at Vael ready to pull. He has high potential DPS, because his output is not being limited at all.

Regardless of whether either player dies during the fight, the potential DPS of Raider X was much higher than that of The Rogue when potential DPS is measured - which is at the start of the fight. It's such a simple concept that it's impossible to imagine you actually can't understand it.

[shimerra]

Im not sure it does fall under the first one. Well, i guess what i mean is anything could fall under that category - Losing a roll on an item, getting killed in pvp, a tank missing a taunt and causing a wipe - obviously these things are not absolutely "intentional" but it would also be impossible to prove it wasnt. Did the tank taunt the wrong target on accident, or to cause a wipe?

. I think the second part is far more accurate.

How can you not? Like literally that's pants on head stupid to not understand how a unspoken rule that means I have zero chance at an item I want. I never would have joined the group if I knew I had zero chance of getting the item.

I have zero issues with Pele reserving items but let's not pretend any of your horrible horrible examples are the same as this very enforceable standard.

[arkanon]

How can you not? Like literally that's pants on head stupid to not understand how a unspoken rule that means I have zero chance at an item I want. I never would have joined the group if I knew I had zero chance of getting the item.

I have zero issues with Pele reserving items but let's not pretend any of your horrible horrible examples are the same as this very enforceable standard.

What was the enforceable standard?

[Askyl]

Except, the defining aspect of "no loot rules were broken".

Ninja looting is to steal items you don't need or intend to use. You can try, but you won't change what ninja looting is.

[Jazzhands]

Ninja looting is to steal items you don't need or intend to use. You can try, but you won't change what ninja looting is.

What? People ninja loot things they want/need/will use all the time. Ninja looting is basically just stealing loot you didn't rightfully win, it doesn't matter why you did it.