Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[Onikaroshi]

It is what I said ... you just added your own assumptions to it.




What is the difference between +9 and +10 ... EVERYTHING ON THE PLANET.

The current system leaves us doing ONE +10 a week... absolutely no chance to improve. Being able to do 3 or 4 +10s a week would possibly see us getting BETTER.

+15*, been that since 8.3 anyway

[Selastan]

I kind of agree with you, but don't see a viable replacement tbh. I'm all for WoW slowing the fuck down. (Not in a timegatey way though. Definitely not that.) All mythic timers accomplish is kill the communication between difficult pulls. Now, I get that it Mythic+ is a test to see how well groups can work on the fly, but that shouldn't be a part of the core gameplay. Core gameplay should involve planning, strategy, and communication, not individual keyboard skill, and Mythic+ accomplishes the exact opposite of that. However, without that timer, what do we have? Just enemies who get bigger numbers with every difficulty? New mobs with new abilities for every key tier? None of those work out either, for very different reasons. I'm just going to chalk it up to Mythic+ being not my cup of tea, and leave it at that. It's a system that can't be made that fun for me, no matter what the alteration. It should be left the way it is for the people that do enjoy it. WoW should ultimately have something for everyone, in the end. Let Mythic+ be the place for those on-the-fly gamers.

[docterfreeze]

I do prefer genuinely difficult content over something that's only difficult because of the timer.

[Revamp Man]

It also creates a big barrier to entry. I tank, but I haven't played since launch. There's no way for me to learn m+ other than by blowing up a bunch of keys as I make mistakes. And as a result, no one would want to play with me now.

Just start low and build up....do people think they should start in the double digits?

[rhorle]

What is the difference between +9 and +10 ... EVERYTHING ON THE PLANET. The current system leaves us doing ONE +10 a week... absolutely no chance to improve. Being able to do 3 or 4 +10s a week would possibly see us getting BETTER.

Because of the affix addition between 9 and 10. You can also do as many +10 a week as you have keys for. If your key gets downgraded then upgrade it by doing a lesser Mythic+ fast enough. If you can't upgrade your key again then you need to practice those lesser numbers. It is funny how before you said you were stuck on +15. Now it is +10 and "everything on the planet" different between a +9 and +10.

You really do seem whiny and shifting any facts in order to keep your image from shattering.

[Ticj]

Yeah, the timer really ruins it for me. A big part of dungeons for me have always been the social experience. There isn't one when you don't have time to stop for 2 seconds to beat the timer.

[Izalla]

Ditto, timers, and disguised timers like sanity in horrific visions are a real turn off for me.

I'd rather the difficulty dynamically ramped up than rush, rush, RUSH!

Replying to you because you're the most recent person to quote me, but this is also for anyone else who quoted me:

A lot of people in this thread are doing the whole "get good scrub" thing for anyone who says they don't like timers. I don't know that I've seen anyone in here say "I find the timer too hard to complete and need it removed so I can bullshit my way through a dungeon I'm not skilled enough for by cheesing mechanics and spending four hours on a 30 minute dungeon", despite the argument people are trying to make against that idea. I enjoyed the Cata dungeons before the nerfs, and I was a Wrath baby used to easy AoE-fests, so they were absolutely bonkers to me at the time. When I last raided in Mists, my team cleared normal and spent most of our progression in heroic (before that changed to heroic and mythic).

I don't want to cheese fights I'm not skilled enough to complete. I have no idea how high I could go in mythic+ if I tried, because I just don't enjoy it. I've never had a problem with learning fights in dungeons or raids though, so I assume I'd be at least average. If you think every scrub can overcome the hardest fights if you give them enough time, you haven't played with enough legit scrubs (that healer is gonna oom eventually and those dps might never get that mechanic right -- I have flashbacks to Corla and that simplest mechanic of stepping out of the beam and into the beam at the right times, but NO, some people just couldn't freaking be bothered enough to do that no matter how many pity stacks the dungeon handed out). I got the challenge mode mounts that I wanted in Mists then tapped out when my group went on to do gold because I found my class's set too ugly to put up with the rushed timer giant-gauntlet-events that they were. The runs were not fun enough for me on their own. I did the warlock green fire in Mists, I did a bunch of the mage towers in Legion, I'm not totally hopeless, I can execute a fight.

But I don't find a timer fun. I don't enjoy the fact that the game will consider it a failure if I don't meet that timer, whether my group is easily capable of it or not. Find a way to hide the timer, ignore the timer, whatever, that timer still exists to consider your run a pass or a fail based not on actually killing the bosses, but on how fast you did it all. As someone else put earlier: psychologically that is just not an enjoyable experience for some people.

"This content isn't meant for you." As someone who mostly did dungeons as my endgame for the majority of playing this game because I'm a filthy casual who only raided for an expac and a half, neither are normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, or mythic 0 after a certain level of gear. I was excited by the idea that dungeons could go up in difficulty and reward better gear long after launch. But timed runs do not excite me. I'd rather have a death counter and enrage times on bosses to keep those reasonable if need be (but again, a shitty group is going to have an oom healer eventually, one way or another, or dps who just can't be bothered to get out of the way of something), than have an entire dungeon be as much of a chain pull as one can make it. Maybe it's because I'm a healer, but I don't want to feel like a burden because we're on a clock and I have to stop to drink after a big messy pull.

The short burst here and there of a gauntlet event or a raid boss is fine. An entire run designed like that? That's not what I'm looking for. And that is dungeon endgame now. So what content is for me? Stuff I outgear and outskill? "Just ignore the timer or let it fail" feels shitty. None of this is the dungeon endgame I was looking for. I stand by preferring an option without a timer. You can keep your timed runs, I just want a way to scale up the dungeon to be a regular dungeon run but increased difficulty, like going from normal to heroic, or heroic to mythic. Maybe it can only go so high and thus can never reach the gear level of the higher keys, but something beyond the base level please. Something that does a better job of giving dungeon endgame to people who don't like timed runs and have overgeared mythic 0. I don't see a reason both can't exist, not in a game where they already made 50 difficulties for raids as it is and have the tech for a steady scaling increase.

Rant over. Continue everyone who is insulting people who don't like timers and insisting they are just bad at the game and want it dumbed down so they can complete content they are too trash to do, regardless of whether or not they've said "timers are hard and I can't beat them, please remove."

[Hinastorm]

I don't need to practice lower versions - I need to practice the one I'm not doing well on.

That's just rational.




That's EXACTLY what I want... I don't want a +1 ... just want to do what the pro leagues do... practice the crap out of your current level until you advance.

I don't get to do that with the current -1 approach, so I don't get any better ... a flaw in the system.

Still haven't changed that sig huh? It makes no sense. Your sig only works if someone is refusing to play wow, but plays diablo, for example.

[hulkgor]

It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.

Just do it with no attention to the timer? O_o

[Niwes]

i think what op (and a lot of other ppl) want is: remove the timer and instead rushing competitive make it competitive hard. so ppl can choose between:

- very hard dungeon, often dead, takes long time, no timer stress/rush
- rushable dungeon, rarely dead, takes short time, timer stress/rush

and get the same reward.

some ppl just like playing harder amd trying harder, dying more often and need more time, than rushing. but ofc mythic 0 is not the answer, because they wanna also get useful rewards. so you have to switch time challenge with hard/skill challenge to even it out.

[Constraint]

i think what op (and a lot of other ppl) want is: remove the timer and instead rushing competitive make it competitive hard. so ppl can choose between:

- very hard dungeon, often dead, takes long time, no timer stress/rush
- rushable dungeon, rarely dead, takes short time, timer stress/rush

and get the same reward.

some ppl just like playing harder amd trying harder, dying more often and need more time, than rushing. but ofc mythic 0 is not the answer, because they wanna also get useful rewards. so you have to switch time challenge with hard/skill challenge to even it out.

Agreed.

Presumably the timer exists so people can't just use cheese comps with infinite sustain to just whittle down dungeons over hours, but the opposite end of that solution just means that specs that can't put out the numbers or CC required to beat tough timers just aren't viable.

I think it'd be kinda cool if there were two progression methods, one with no timer, and no downgraded key due to a failed timer unless you manually want it to stay the same or decrease in levels, and one with a timer, that we have currently. Different purposes, different specialties etc, but both rewarding great gear and providing different people with an enjoyable dungeon endgame.

Oh and I can't believe people are actually suggesting M0 as an alternative. Yeah. That'll really scratch the itch of people wanting to do extremely challenging dungeon content without a timer. They're insanelllly difficult. And just doing regular M+ without looking at the timer doesn't work at all either, as you can't get to the harder dungeons WITHOUT doing the timer to begin with. How are you supposed to get to harder and harder untimed dungeons without timing the timer..? Yeah, bit of a problem there, isn't there.

P.s are there actually people who haven't yet put Schwarzkopf on ignore? This honestly surprises me quite a bit, I thought most people had done so for a few years now.

[rhorle]

i think what op (and a lot of other ppl) want is: remove the timer and instead rushing competitive make it competitive hard. so ppl can choose between:

The problem though is people naturally want to rush. Look at LFR and skipping the two guys on the stairs on the way to vexiona. People don't want to take time as a general thing. They want to take the shortest path of the least resistance. Which is why things are rushed even with out timers, or things are skipped even if you risk accidental pulls.

People that want hard just for the sake of hard can also do so with out worrying about the timers now. And that really is the issue. They don't want to have the option to choose and ask others. They want others to be forced by the game into that play style (even if timers are still an option). Which begs one of the more important question in cases like this.

Why should the game force something that you are unwilling to choose to do when you, and others, have that choice?

[dragi]

If not timer then what? It's many viable spec, but not in DF. People want for low keys high geared ppl and top tier classes. This not a game system fault only community problem. There is many viable spec, problem is people don't know tactics, and ppl don't know their own classes. It's rare too see ww monk or pala dispelling diseases, or mage for example sheeping mech raider in motherlood when casting mech. People didn't breaking CC or CC some mob when very hard moment on big pull is a dream. About interrupting in DF i could write a book but in few worlds almost doesn't exist. Zerg tactic work when your party overgearing key, if not, making it harder or impossible in time.

[agentsi]

I don't see how it contradicts with anything i've said.

More people play slotmachines than videogames, guess that's a pretty good gamedesign too.

I would wager that that too, is false. In fact, it absolutely is. lol

Video games are in everyone's hands almost every day if you have a phone. Not everyone is going to the slot machines daily. Even if Vegas had 30 million people playing them daily( they don't have anywhere close to that ), more people are playing video games on a daily basis. By a huge margin.

[DarkBlade6]

It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.

A lot of people already do Key for completion only, just look for this kind of runs and that's it

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I might actually do them if they were like this. I hated challenge modes from the moment they introduced them because I do not enjoy playing against the timer.

well that was the "Challenge" get it ?

[Thetruth1400]

I might actually do them if they were like this. I hated challenge modes from the moment they introduced them because I do not enjoy playing against the timer.

Same. I'd rather see them have a longer reward system draw out and just get more and more difficult in terms of mob health, mechanics, etc., not a timer based run system.

This would also extremely help in the creativity of dungeons instead of having to fit them into the same relatively small mold so they fit within a timed system, which results in them all feeling a bit too similar with the 3-5 boss only design.

[DarkBlade6]

You are completely missing the point of this thread. People don't want to FAIL the run. People want a non-timed version of the key system where they can take their time to strategize, but STILL "win" the run and upgrade their key.

Look at ranked versus non-ranked PvP. Just because you're not playing in a rated BG doesn't mean you can't go up against a premade group that's really challenging.

When you put your key in the slot, it pops up a question if your group is ready. There isn't any reason it couldn't pop up a "timed/non-timed" confirmation box to let you choose. Your non-timed runs wouldn't count toward your rankings or toward the weekly loot chest the same way that timed runs would.

Basically, just like LFR, people are asking for more things to do to keep them playing which don't affect your ability to do the things you enjoy.

It already works like that!!!
You can complete the dungeon and get a reward or complete it in time for more rewards ... it's that simple
the key doesn't even downgrade anymore, so no big deal if you fail the timer
why do you want to get the timer removed ?! just ignore it and join group that say "for completion only"

but if you expect to get the same reward as a timed run in a simple completion run, that's another subject... I say you are just a cry baby who want more for less

[nyjl]

I would wager that that too, is false. In fact, it absolutely is. lol

Video games are in everyone's hands almost every day if you have a phone. Not everyone is going to the slot machines daily. Even if Vegas had 30 million people playing them daily( they don't have anywhere close to that ), more people are playing video games on a daily basis. By a huge margin.

yes, everyone in the world is american under 30

it is also very funny that the type of “videogames” you instantly jump to is mobile gaming, which is currently basicaly slotmachines

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Most slot machines are a good design which is why they are popular. Some slot machines are better at others in attracting players. I don't even think you have a point anymore because slot machines are not inherently bad design simply because they exist. Just as timed runs are not inherently bad simply because they exist. Timers are used in a variety of sports and games. Chess, Soccer, Football, etc all make use of timers.

And yet here on the internet we have a game design expert that says any use of timers is bad design because anything also is automatically superior.

you obviously doesn’t even understand word “gamedesign” because there is no difference in GAMEdesign between different types of slotmachines

>chess,soccer

yeah, it was great games yesterday when team A played team B for 10th time in a row trying to beat it faster

if you will fail to understand it as you did with everything else - timelimit and timeruns are not the same things

[Dioporco]

0/10

Link your raider.io page, show us your experience

shorturl.at/wAILS

Here, now link yours or get lost

[Flarelaine]

I don't see how it contradicts with anything i've said.

More people play slotmachines than videogames, guess that's a pretty good gamedesign too.

Do you have statistics on that? I'm curious about the metric used in comparing the two. Please link source.