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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    They're hard because of the increasing dmg/hp scaling combined with the affixes applied on top. Both of which have nothing to do with a timer. If people pull through they should get their reward regardless of the time it took them to get there. This timer stuff belongs in a different category like vanity/competition not fun/relaxing gameplay.
    You get loot regardless if you hit the timer, and with the potency of cds the timer does add difficulty cause if you could hold cds for every tough pack keys would be wayyy easier. This whole thread just screams of people who are too anxious about their play and stress about the idea of their mistakes and poor decisions being visible to whole grps of players.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by nyjl View Post
    if you are a gamedesigner and you cannot come up with a good idea just put into some shit a time limit and slap a leaderboard on top, stupid people will be happy as shit
    That would actually be cool IF Blizzard ever developed a leaderboard for M+. But they never did. I would have a public posting of the fastest timed run on the server for each dungeon. About 3/4ths of the way through the current season, for each dungeon, Blizzard would reveal the *least* played tank, the *least* played healer, and the top 3 *least* played dps. A new leaderboard would go up for the final 2 months tracking best times for teams comprised specifically of those 5 class/spec combos. Fastest time at the end of the season on that second leaderboard wins a big prize.

  3. #343
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    And this is a problem precisely why? The item level stops scaling at 10 (or 15) so unless it's more efficient loot per hour, there's no point in doing so except to say you did it.

    But that's because in all your examples you're competing vs another team (who plays under the same rules/timers you do).

    In mythic+, your competition IS the timer so that makes it distinctly different. If M+ was a race against another team, then it would be comparable.
    Fair point, didn't see it that way. I mean...I still don't get why one timer (even if that timer is in the shape of other, competing human beings) is more engaging than the other and on the other hand people still rush timer-less content like there was a timer.

    But like I said earlier - for all I care they could give an option to play without timer (and thus giving up on the option of extra loot...and I guess the key you win would only be +1 to the key you just used?)

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    There's a ceiling to the rewards, anything beyond a certain +lvl, i forget what it is now, it becomes a game of the scoreboards/bragging rights.
    While ilvl doesn't improve past M+14 and the weekly chest doesn't go past M+15, you do get extra scaling through more loot for higher key levels.

    The very highest key levels are mostly for prestige or the challenge itself, I suppose, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Making timers meaningless, however, would make the top end of keys EXTREMELY tedious. Nobody wants to spend 2 hours dodging boss mechanics to whittle down their 800m HP with 3 tanks and 2 healers.

  5. #345
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    Bosses gain hp with scaling difficulty keeping enrage timers relevant.
    Enrage timers get easier with gear no matter the difficulty. Boss hp also will go down through nerfs later in tiers.

  6. #346
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    The notion of removing timers from mythic+ is....


    Never mind. Really all I wonder is: how much easier does the game have to made for the scrubs out there. Timers for thoroughly digested content are too stressful? Seriously?

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Awyee View Post
    fake link, zero experience

    Stop pretending like you have a clue when you talk about whether m+ is challenging
    https://raider.io/characters/eu/pozz...%A0/Obsscuretv

    Shortd the link but had an expire timer.


    Now link yours or get lost fucking trash, I'm tired of third world players like you that at best have done LFR without dying.

    Link your profile now.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    Because , just maybe, using 2 brain cells to think, m+ is NOT ONE encounter where you pump all cds. It is many smaller encounters and you need to manage your cds to have enough for each problem.
    To be fair, when you say 'CDs', people proposing these changes probably think you are talking about music.

  9. #349
    I think that simply adding a non-timed option for current M+ dungeons is a terrible idea. It will likely create a lot more additional problems, like how do you balance loot, how do you balance keystone upgrades, how to avoid players abusing the system, etc. How do you even define progression in this case? If you can clear +7, you will most likely clear +8, but in, like, 5 minutes more. And then+9. And +10. And +11. And so on, until you get to the point when certain mechanics will instantly kill you or what? Pretty much more problems for no real reason.

    Now you still get loot, weekly chest and a slightly easier key you can actually complete on time. Is the "Time expired" writing that painful to see? I mean, having a possibility of losing is good for the game. It makes you improve, earn and appreciate the rewards. If the content is too stressful, you can play it with people you are comfortable with (friends, guildies, etc) and avoid pugs.

    Having content with set difficulty and no timer is fine. For example, more mega-dungeons with hard-modes sounds nice. Both Mechagon and Karazhan were a really nice experience, it is sad that the majority of players won't run their full versions for gearing since the difficulty and ilvl is just M0. Maybe introduce more non-timed "fixed difficulties" with weekly resets? That might work if done well I guess.

    As for the mentality, removing timer in current M+ will not change the "rush, rush" mindset, player toxicity or intolerance for mistakes. It's the mentality that comes first, people will optimize, rush and leave groups even without the timer. Why be nice to people/give them advice when they make mistakes if you can just leave the weak group/raid and find another one in a few minutes with no consequences? Why spend one hour in the dungeon that can be cleared in 30 minutes? Etc. Nowdays everything is cross-server, plenty of groups in the finder, you can always find another one. Game is focused on end-game content and you have a rio/parses ranking attached to your character. There is a ton of information on best classes, strategies, routes, etc. All this creates this "I want to be efficient", "don't waste time", "improve my whatever number/ranking" mentality. It's just part of the game now.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    They're hard because of the increasing dmg/hp scaling combined with the affixes applied on top. Both of which have nothing to do with a timer. If people pull through they should get their reward regardless of the time it took them to get there. This timer stuff belongs in a different category like vanity/competition not fun/relaxing gameplay.
    Thats why there are 2 items in the chest and they changed the depletion mechanic 3 years ago, you literally described M+.

    If you cant finish a +7, which is down right LFR levels of difficulty, why would Blizzard let you try a 10 affix?

    Gearing speed is already retard levels of fast and wrong at the same time and alts can be near max ilvl in less than 10h with a competent playing environment.

    They would literally have to rebalance everything and scaling if they removed the timer, the jumps in difficulty should be literally what today is M+1-->M+5-->10-->15--->20, and not as it is now.

    So people would get cockblocked by the scaling, and then people would cry for nerfs.
    Last edited by potis; 2020-02-26 at 10:54 AM.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post
    Speed runs are garbage. Thats why Mythic + and stuff like Island Expeditions suck big time. Not sure who would think that designing such a system in an MmoRPG would be a good idea. Diablo devs probably. Wrong game and genre. The last thing i need when i come from a hard day of training/working is more stress in a damn speed run.



    The timer doesn't add any fun for a lot of people i know. They just do it because Mythic + rewards good items and its fast. They don't do it because its particularly enjoyable or fun. It turns the dungeon into a major AoE fest, through which you have to stress as fast as possible. Mythic+ is just the easiest and most efficient way to gear characters in the game and currently there is no alternative for it. There were more difficult dungeons in the past as well. They were fun and no one needed a timer and stress about it. And if people want a timer, let them activate and deactivate the timer and reward them with special Transmog and Customization options. Just give them a choice. Problem solved. But of course not for the control freaks that design this game these days.
    This, this right here tells me that you don't run high keys on the regular, and have no idea what you're talking about. Outside of 20+, you can literally pull one pack at a time, and as long as you're geared for the content and execute it right (i.e not dying), you will make the timer.


    That said, I much preferred how MoP challenge moders worked compared to the M+ that we have now. I either prefer static difficulty + timer , or scaling difficulty without timer. But meh, either way, M+ is fun, keeps me entertained.
    Last edited by Sinte; 2020-02-26 at 11:14 AM.

  12. #352
    Stood in the Fire Penegal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Actualy majority of players do not care aboit challenge. Challenge is just way to make content fun but its horrible as goal. And yes its actualy super boring when you have to do anything on timer. Without timer you can actualy afford to play variety of team conmos without need of min maxing which is not fun at all. And yes if Blizz cant make mythic+ challenging without timer than this mod should not exist at all.
    This is only valid if you're doing keys at 21 or more. Anything below that can be done with any comp if the players are decent enough and geared enough.

    Also, if Blizz were to make it challenging without a timer most people wouldn't be able to complete keys above a +5 or lower. This also means introducing more mechanics and more personal responsibility because the mechanics in mythic dungeons are so simple it's laughable. The damage % increase forces you to just not ignore certain things like interrupts or avoidable damage. You will have new threads with the same people complaining how it's super stressful and you shouldn't make dungeons harder by introducing more mechanics.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    https://raider.io/characters/eu/pozz...%A0/Obsscuretv

    Shortd the link but had an expire timer.


    Now link yours or get lost fucking trash, I'm tired of third world players like you that at best have done LFR without dying.

    Link your profile now.
    Nice one dude, keep linking fake profiles I might believe you one day

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Awyee View Post
    Nice one dude, keep linking fake profiles I might believe you one day
    Asking for link, not linking your own.

    Deny links, still not linking own profile.



    Classic trash LFR player on MMOC that ask credential to other players without posting his own, for obvious reasons.

    Welcome to ignore list.

  15. #355
    Stood in the Fire Penegal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    Asking for link, not linking your own.

    Deny links, still not linking own profile.



    Classic trash LFR player on MMOC that ask credential to other players without posting his own, for obvious reasons.

    Welcome to ignore list.
    Just update the description to shut him up lmao

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Penegal View Post
    Just update the description to shut him up lmao
    It would have been my first thought once at home, but then I decide to stalk his profile and found his char.

    Well, let's say it is better to continue talking about the main topic, I don't wanna get banned for cyber bullying

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Penegal View Post
    This is only valid if you're doing keys at 21 or more. Anything below that can be done with any comp if the players are decent enough and geared enough.
    But even if now we can easily stomp +15 due to HC Gear, Corruption and at least 2 weeks of 475.

    We still have the main problem that at every level of M+ the meta is polarised.

    People at +6 still want ez classes even if it is a +6 because " Durr muh time is precious I want a +3 " even if they have basically no score, and they should imho stick with a 5-6-7 range of keys to spam to get loot/corruption/understand the dungeons*

    *I saw too many players with nice gear, great score but less than 10 m+ ( so basically the " I do only the weekly " player ) and thus they don't know some skip or other mandatory stuff to know, more than once people be clueless.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    IMO completing a M+ at all should always +1 the key, even if it takes you 5 hours to do it... Shouldn't be punished for sticking it out when the going gets tough... the timer should only exist for the extra rewards, 2/3 chesting and +2/3'ing the key... Depleting keys shouldn't be a mechanic at all.
    depleting key (a.k.a. you cant use the key that week) is NOT a thing... if you cant do +15 in time WHY should you be allowed into +16? you get your key donwgraded to +14 which you should be able to do in time (as you had +15 key before)...

    in legion keys were actualy depleting, which was an issue, having they key downgraded is perfect

  19. #359
    Stood in the Fire Penegal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    But even if now we can easily stomp +15 due to HC Gear, Corruption and at least 2 weeks of 475.

    We still have the main problem that at every level of M+ the meta is polarised.

    People at +6 still want ez classes even if it is a +6 because " Durr muh time is precious I want a +3 " even if they have basically no score, and they should imho stick with a 5-6-7 range of keys to spam to get loot/corruption/understand the dungeons*

    *I saw too many players with nice gear, great score but less than 10 m+ ( so basically the " I do only the weekly " player ) and thus they don't know some skip or other mandatory stuff to know, more than once people be clueless.
    That's true. People will always copy the top players, regardless of context. Many don't understand that what the top players do, they do because of the content they're pushing, not because they just feel like it. Since they use specific comps to help them with their strategy due to a spec's utility/damage/healing/cc, other players automatically assume that's the classes they must play with since it should somehow equate to automatically timing the key.

    If anyone wants to avoid stuff like that, they should simply not pug. This is an MMORPG. If you don't have actual friends that play the game, make some online and stick with them. You don't want to time keys? Find people who also don't want to time keys. You want to push? Find people who also want to push. It's not hard, it's just something that requires effort and most people have the expectation that since they're paying they shouldn't put in effort. After all, what are they paying for if they have to actually play the game? Complaining on the forums is certainly much easier than actually playing the game.

  20. #360
    Key Depletion is really a dumb mechanics, more dumb since there is no longer the delete-reroll trick for keys.

    Since time is linear in this universe, there will be soon or later, like it already happened in other seasons where:

    The majority of players will be doing 10/15 as weekly , pusher will do 19-22, casuals will be around 12-14 for the gear/corruption.

    New Players/Alt/Noob/LFR Players ( the majority 2.0 ) will have hard time trying to push from 5-6 up to 9-10 beacuse there will be no longer the same pool of players, that will be shifted towards 10/15 weekly meta )


    And so having the "deplete" mechanics that reduce the lvl key is basically a death penalty for this kind of players.



    So imho keys systen should be :

    - +1 +2 +3 based upon timer ( if it isn't removed )

    - out of time +0 you still have the same key, to retry / improve

    - -1 if you leave too soon aka ragequitter should avoid play games if they have no patience

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