Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[Zarvel]

A loot pinata is a loot pinata regardless of whether you actually want that loot. Who's to say that timed M+ players and Mythic raiders would have any need for the loot of an untimed M+ difficulty?

But yea, keep falling down to insults when you are unable to provide a coherent counter-argument. That will prove me wrong.

"Insults", haha, show me one that I used.
Going by your logic, LFR nzoth should be a loot pinata for Mythic raiders. But in reality, is it? Technicality doesn't always work. But nice try. It's like you're actively attempting to miss the point. At least you're succeeding at that /shrug --> Also this isn't an insult, like all my other comments. It's just a burn. Very different concepts. Also, not my fault you're unable to comprehend what I'm putting out, cuz there's plenty of counter-arguments in my posts. Feel free to re-visit them incase you missed it the first time. Eh.

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When people are telling you to the face that that is not their experience at all. Call it what you want, but your behavior in this thread in general has been coming out as quite arrogant and self-absorbed.

"People". Who? Folks who don't see the logic behind untimed M+ already existing ? You and a few others are the only ones on that boat full of holes.
I called you out as entitled, so I must be arrogant and self-absorbed. Sound logic. Could it just be you don't like what I'm saying because it's true so now you're finding ways to insult me with pedantic stuff?
You've just proved you're no longer worth responding to. And yes, now I'm being arrogant, because you called for it.

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I ran an unhealthy amount of 5man content, we're talking well over 1000 runs, in every xpack, in every roles but mostly tanks.

I have NEVER seen not even once, a group where the majority of people wanted to slow down and take their time looking at the scenery or sitting there or seriously I don't know what other kind of time wasting activities you want to do in a dungeon. And I'm talking before M+ existed. People don't want to take more time than necessary to run a dungeon, that's just an insanely silly thing to beg for.

Before timers existed people still wanted to clear dungeons fast, doing things efficiently, quick, is profitable, both in-game and real life. So even if you get that super challenging but no timer mode, people are still gonna want to do it fast because being slow sucks. It just simply fucking sucks, it's not even subjective at this point why the hell would you want to STOP PLAYING AND DO NOTHING TO SLOW THINGS DOWN because that's what "taking your time" inevitably comes down to. If you're not pulling and killing, it means you're not doing anything (aka not playing) because there's nothing else to do in a dungeon other than pulling and killing.

I'm asking this question seriously: what are, in details, the actions you want to do as a player in a dungeon that requires slow gameplay pacing?

And let me tell you this before you reply. The stress caused by a timer is a psychological issue that most people are not affected by, it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with you. You can get rid of that problem by working on yourself, you don't need the game to be changed. I'm not saying this as an insult, it's a legit psychological issue most likely related to Chronophobia (fear of time) which can manifest itself from things like timers, seeing time passing by, growing old, etc, or Atychiphobia (fear of failure) when you consider the timer running out to be your failure.

You may not be directly or even consciously asking for it but wanting runs with no timer is indicative of "looking for a safe space" for lack of better words, I'm not trying to make a reference to leftism and all that shit but I mean you search for comfort instead of "facing your fears".

Mechanically speaking dungeons (and raids and other content or game modes or even other games) always revolve around doing things quickly, the timer is just a measuring stick to determine different levels of rewards at the end of a run, just like you would get different scores in other games after a mission or something. There never was any incentive in the game to make people want to waste time, that is false in every imaginable levels, we even want to level fast.

If you have problem timing keys and bring out the excuse of "I wanna take my time" then that's a different issue. The concept of "but I want to take my time" is misleading, the keyword is not "time", it's "my", your time is not the same as other people's time, your time is defined by what you are able to do and maybe these capacities are not good enough past a certain level. I mean not everyone can do 25's all the time, right? We all have our limits, play within yours, you get the rewards you deserve for that level and that's it, you're not allowed to complain or ask for more, your first task is to get better or solve your mental blockings in regards to timers. The game and the devs are not here to create tailor made game modes for every type of disabilities out there, they make one product, if you like it then play it, if you don't then stop using it.

The realities of game design in relation to gameplay (specifically loot progression) are this:
If they make a new game mode without timer it either has to give weaker rewards which means most people won't participate or it will be seen as alt catch up mechanic.
If this new game mode gives equivalent reward but has no timer, it needs to be so hard that in reality if you're not able to make the timer in M+ you also won't be good enough to clear that new game mode and therefore get no reward from it. This would also change the entire progression system of the game since we would be talking about basically 5man raid at this point, so all raiding has to be tweaked in consideration. That's a lot of work for a company already struggling, all that just to please people with a fear of timer? Why should Blizzard make efforts and not you? No I'm serious, why should you not make any effort?
Another option is making this new challenging-but-no-timer game mode give the best loot but this means it's the new end game, what happens with raiding and M+? Steps in progression? In this case you're fucked cuz you would need to do the content you don't like in order to reach the content you like. Deleted from the game? This is a development headache and most likely would not end well. Make the new mode scale? Again that's asking for M+ to be deleted and completely ignores the core concept that this new game mode should be challenging.

TLDR The vast majority of players enjoy being efficient, which means clearing runs quick and this has been the case since vanilla. Adding a timer changes nothing to the game mechanically and any issues you have with it is psychological, therefore not Blizzard's responsibility and you can fix it yourself.

I think I'm about to cry. Finally a voice of reason. Go you!

[Faesroll]

Just ignore the timer? you still get your loot at the end if you complete it

[Kolvarg]

It has gameplay modes and mechanics. My objective, solely, should be to play the game and try to beat it. In the end, that's what all games are, even minecraft. Minecraft could've just been a Daytime-only game, where you could build all you want and gather as many resources as you want, etc. but they added the aspect of Night time into it didn't they? Surely there are players in there that have been crying out loud for a daytime only version, but they never budged, why?

That is a terrible example considering Minecraft includes mechanics to skip night time entirely, as well as console commands that let you reset the time to play however the hell you want.

That's all great, except your argument (and Felplague's) was never that this difficulty doesn't match the developers' "philosophy", but that it doesn't match yours and your perception of what activities deserve which rewards. Not to mention that the developers' "philosophy" changes over time, sometimes quite drastically.

"Insults", haha, show me one that I used.
Going by your logic, LFR nzoth should be a loot pinata for Mythic raiders. But in reality, is it? Technicality doesn't always work. But nice try. It's like you're actively attempting to miss the point. At least you're succeeding at that /shrug --> Also this isn't an insult, like all my other comments. It's just a burn. Very different concepts. Also, not my fault you're unable to comprehend what I'm putting out, cuz there's plenty of counter-arguments in my posts. Feel free to re-visit them incase you missed it the first time. Eh.

Call it whatever you want. Ad hominem is ad hominem.

A pinata is a pinata, regardless of you liking the candy that's inside.

Have you considered that it is possible that what you're putting out just doesn't make that much sense, or that you're not doing a great job of explaining yourself, instead of me being unable to comprehend it? Or that is you that is not comprehending what I'm trying to say?

"People". Who? Folks who don't see the logic behind untimed M+ already existing ? You and a few others are the only ones on that boat full of holes.
I called you out as entitled, so I must be arrogant and self-absorbed. Sound logic. Could it just be you don't like what I'm saying because it's true so now you're finding ways to insult me with pedantic stuff? You've just proved you're no longer worth responding to. And yes, now I'm being arrogant, because you called for it.

You behaved arrogantly and self-absorbedly not for calling me entitled, but for continually assuming everyone who disagrees with you is wrong, and people who experienced things differently than you are wrong or non existant.

Also it's not an insult, it's just a description of your behaviour You might be a very different person overall than what you transpire over a few posts.

Open your mind a bit.

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I ran an unhealthy amount of 5man content, we're talking well over 1000 runs, in every xpack, in every roles but mostly tanks.

I have NEVER seen not even once, a group where the majority of people wanted to slow down and take their time looking at the scenery or sitting there or seriously I don't know what other kind of time wasting activities you want to do in a dungeon. And I'm talking before M+ existed. People don't want to take more time than necessary to run a dungeon, that's just an insanely silly thing to beg for.

There's a big difference between having to complete a dungeon within a certain deadline and wanting to complete it as fast as you can.
In an untimed dungeon you can still try to go as fast as you're able to, but if something goes wrong, no matter how many times it goes wrong, you can still try again and you will not be punished for it (other than taking more time than if it hadn't gone wrong).

Maybe your dungeon experience is very different than mine, but generally when my group was undergeared/underprepared and wiped for going too fast, generally we decided to go slower, pull less mobs, maybe CC some if needed, to avoid wiping again. It's not about slowing down and taking time to look at the scenery, is about having the freedom to approach the dungeon in whatever way the group wants/needs.

I'm asking this question seriously: what are, in details, the actions you want to do as a player in a dungeon that requires slow gameplay pacing?

It's not necessarily that the dungeons must require slow gameplay, it's mainly about being able to make mistakes without very potentially ruining the whole run and wasting up to 30mins of yours and 4 other person's time.

And it's not just about the possibility of mistakes. It's about having to commit entirely to the game throughout the duration of the instance. If someone knocks at your door, or you get a call, or you have an urge to go to the bathroom, or your kid wakes up, or whatever it might be, then tough luck.

But there have been good suggestions in this thread and others, such as avoiding patrols, having to use CC, more mechanics to deal with, etc.

And let me tell you this before you reply. The stress caused by a timer is a psychological issue that most people are not affected by, it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with you. You can get rid of that problem by working on yourself, you don't need the game to be changed. I'm not saying this as an insult, it's a legit psychological issue most likely related to Chronophobia (fear of time) which can manifest itself from things like timers, seeing time passing by, growing old, etc, or Atychiphobia (fear of failure) when you consider the timer running out to be your failure.

I don't have any fear of time, I just don't enjoy it in games. I already deal with it fine 8h a day at work, I don't want to and won't want to have to deal with it in a game no matter how much I "work on myself".

I could just as much claim that some of the people in this thread's issue with the possibility of an untimed M+ is a psychological issue of basing their self-worth on their perceived superiority over others in their gaming skill. After all, if you enjoy running against a clock you could just use a stopwatch app on an untimed dungeon and time it yourself.

I enjoy challenging gameplay. I don't enjoy having a deadline on it. It's just a type of gameplay mechanic I'm not into, that's all.

We all have our limits, play within yours, you get the rewards you deserve for that level and that's it, you're not allowed to complain or ask for more, your first task is to get better or solve your mental blockings in regards to timers. The game and the devs are not here to create tailor made game modes for every type of disabilities out there, they make one product, if you like it then play it, if you don't then stop using it.

But what limits deserve what rewards is not set in stone. Everyone's allowed to complain or ask for more lol. No one is saying the devs are here to tailor a custom game, no one is saying they must include this new mode. It's a thread discussing a suggestion.

If they make a new game mode without timer it either has to give weaker rewards which means most people won't participate or it will be seen as alt catch up mechanic.
If this new game mode gives equivalent reward but has no timer, it needs to be so hard that in reality if you're not able to make the timer in M+ you also won't be good enough to clear that new game mode and therefore get no reward from it. This would also change the entire progression system of the game since we would be talking about basically 5man raid at this point, so all raiding has to be tweaked in consideration.

How exactly are you so sure of all these statements?

And how exactly would this change the entire progression system? It would have near zero impact in raiding, certainly when compared to the actual impact Mythic+ had.

I think you are massively overestimating something that isn't even properly defined. There are many ways to do it, and many ways would be fairly simple and integrate well into the current reward system.

TLDR The vast majority of players enjoy being efficient, which means clearing runs quick and this has been the case since vanilla. Adding a timer changes nothing to the game mechanically and any issues you have with it is psychological, therefore not Blizzard's responsibility and you can fix it yourself.

If the timer changes nothing, then why was it added in the first place?

Playing a game is literally a psychological activity. I don't believe it's Blizzard's responsibility to do anything for either side (and no one is saying that), but I do believe it is entirely reasonable to want such a mode. Like I've said above, efficiency is possible to strive for regardless of the timer.

There's a lot of people who don't enjoy taking the game very seriously and/or playing with stakes. It's a preference, not a disability.

[Neenaw]

Another post where where someone's talking about feeling rushed. Why? Who do you feel so even when you can ignore the timer and complete the key?
This seems to be more of a psychological problem than anything else. .

99% of groups want to rush. Yes we can run our own keys but that limits us MASSIVELY.

That's the (very real) pressure involved with M+, that people seem to be ignoring.

[rhorle]

99% of groups want to rush. Yes we can run our own keys but that limits us MASSIVELY. That's the (very real) pressure involved with M+, that people seem to be ignoring.

And people seem to be ignoring that it has nothing to do with Mythic+. Most groups want to clear the content as quickly as possible regardless of what content they are currently doing. LFR skips trash when it can be skipped. Heroics chain pull. World quests group for faster kills. Etc.

[Jujudrood]

Your "suggestion" as you put it, was already part of the initial design of M+. In legion, in season 1, any keys you failed to do, you could repeat on the same key level, with the caveat being that you wouldn't get any loot at the end. What was the outcome of this? Well, people just abandoned keys altogether and just let them sit because if you wanted to change what dungeon the key was, you HAD to complete it. This was during the time of tyrannical Hyrja, when you could be 1 shot through no fault of your own even on a +13. Some keys were dead keys, and this caused folks to have to find pug keys so they could complete their weekly 15.
Blizzard changed it so if you fail or decide to quit your key, it downgrades a level since then and still gives you loot because they wanted players keys to always be useful. Keys went from being unusable to being always usable based on that change alone.

So once again, No. None of these "suggestions" folks on here are giving work. We've already gone though all of those from legion, up until now. Unless you come up with something drastically new, consider it already been tried and tested by Blizzard.

Except that initial M+ release is nothing like I "suggested".
Nowhere did I "suggest" that, should you not complete the dungeon, your key is "dead" and the following run, regardless of outcome, would yield no loot.
All I'm saying is let people turn off the "timer" aspect of the M+ challenge and, in exchange, their M+ experience is altered by resulting in less overall quantity of loot (but still getting loot on completion) as well as keys climbing by only +1 at a time (takes longer to get to higher levels).

[rhorle]

as well as keys climbing by only +1 at a time (takes longer to get to higher levels).

But why wouldn't people just turn off the timer to get higher keys? Guaranteed bump with no time limit is better then trying to push and failing. You can't just "turn off timer" and have it still interact with timed Mythic+. Because the timer is the entire reason why Mythic+ is a challenge. Heck most of the affixes are no longer an issue if you have "unlimited" time to counter them.

Also if non timed runs still boost the keystone why would a failed timed run not also boost the keystone? You would be punishing those who fail a timed run instead of just turning the timer off. You would also have to get less loot from a failed timed run since failed runs are supposed to still have rewards. And a failed timed run is more difficult then a no timer run.

[CrawlFromThePit]

There's a big difference between having to complete a dungeon within a certain deadline and wanting to complete it as fast as you can.
In an untimed dungeon you can still try to go as fast as you're able to, but if something goes wrong, no matter how many times it goes wrong, you can still try again and you will not be punished for it (other than taking more time than if it hadn't gone wrong).

Maybe your dungeon experience is very different than mine, but generally when my group was undergeared/underprepared and wiped for going too fast, generally we decided to go slower, pull less mobs, maybe CC some if needed, to avoid wiping again. It's not about slowing down and taking time to look at the scenery, is about having the freedom to approach the dungeon in whatever way the group wants/needs.

You can see the "fail timer" and getting one less item as a punishment, or you can see the extra items from "beating the timer" as a bonus reward. This is just perspective.
Wiping from going too fast is exactly lack of overall skill or knowledge of the dungeon or bad estimation of the group's power by the tank (or whoever pulled). Playing well includes knowing how much can be pulled to be efficient, this includes knowing which pull should be pulled alone or have CC in it. This doesn't affect the pacing of gameplay since it's supposed to be done "as it's pulled" like sap and pull right after, not sit there, mark everything, type out what needs to be done, blablabla, that's not playing well. While you fight the previous pull, the tank can mark the following pull, the person in charge of CC should know what's up and do it in the few seconds between the pulls this could imply the mage stopping his dps rotation slightly ahead of time, blinking over there for a sheep or something like that. No one is forced to go balls deep 100% uptime on the last mob that has 10% hp left. All of this comes down to play style and level of skills, of course I would not expect any of this from pugs, but then again pugs are not the right way of playing this game and I entirely assume that everyone is aware that pugging is terrible so it should almost always imply doing lower lvl keys than you could with your guild or usual group of friends. All of this would also apply to a new game mode that would be "harder" instead of timed.

It's not necessarily that the dungeons must require slow gameplay, it's mainly about being able to make mistakes without very potentially ruining the whole run and wasting up to 30mins of yours and 4 other person's time.

And it's not just about the possibility of mistakes. It's about having to commit entirely to the game throughout the duration of the instance. If someone knocks at your door, or you get a call, or you have an urge to go to the bathroom, or your kid wakes up, or whatever it might be, then tough luck.

But there have been good suggestions in this thread and others, such as avoiding patrols, having to use CC, more mechanics to deal with, etc.

Again you're seeing the failed timer as the end of the world. It's just 1 less item at the end of the run. Failing to make time has microscopic consequences, the run is not ruined, the bosses still die, there is still items at the end. Sure there is less than if you succeed, but that's still something. Keep in mind, playing in a harder game mode (with no timer) could MORE EASILY end up in a real wasted run with zero reward because the equivalent would be the group disbanding from not being able to get through things.
To make your argument valid, the game right now would have to not give any item at all if you fail the time, this is not the case of course. Basically, running a M+ without caring about the timer is pretty much exactly what you ask for. But knowing that if you don't care about it you will "lose one item", it makes you feel bad. To me, and other people arguing your points, it sounds like you want the rewards without the effort. MAYBE THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU'RE ASKING, but it's what it sounds like from our perspective.

I don't have any fear of time, I just don't enjoy it in games. I already deal with it fine 8h a day at work, I don't want to and won't want to have to deal with it in a game no matter how much I "work on myself".

I could just as much claim that some of the people in this thread's issue with the possibility of an untimed M+ is a psychological issue of basing their self-worth on their perceived superiority over others in their gaming skill. After all, if you enjoy running against a clock you could just use a stopwatch app on an untimed dungeon and time it yourself.

I enjoy challenging gameplay. I don't enjoy having a deadline on it. It's just a type of gameplay mechanic I'm not into, that's all.

People can use a stopwatch app on untimed content just like you can throw a post-it over your timer, or run with like-minded players. But I get the feeling this will go back to the issue of "missing one item for failing the timer". We should clarify this. Do you want to run M+ with no timer and full reward or accept the easier version of M+ (not timed) but always only get 2 items instead of 3. Because the way I see it, if they make a M+ version without timer it should always give only 2 items instead of 3.

But what limits deserve what rewards is not set in stone. Everyone's allowed to complain or ask for more lol. No one is saying the devs are here to tailor a custom game, no one is saying they must include this new mode. It's a thread discussing a suggestion.

So I'm supposed to just agree because it's a suggestion? This is still exactly a discussion about a suggestion. That's what a discussion looks like, it's not just 2 people nodding at each other and being happy. Discussions include disagreements and argumentation. All of this is perfectly normal, this is not an echo chamber. We bring points and challenge each other's view, in the end we learn and grow. I know this is a lost art and the absolute opposite of what TV teaches people now but ultimately that's what living life in society was, is, and should remain.

How exactly are you so sure of all these statements?

And how exactly would this change the entire progression system? It would have near zero impact in raiding, certainly when compared to the actual impact Mythic+ had.

I think you are massively overestimating something that isn't even properly defined. There are many ways to do it, and many ways would be fairly simple and integrate well into the current reward system.

I can go in more details if you really want but it would be a pretty big post (as if this wasn't LOTR-size already). Ultimately the big issue is that every piece of content that rewards items with power on it affects the progression system of the game EXCEPT if the items are so weak that they are bellow what already exists and is never taken into consideration with future content implementation. If it sounds like this would be useless content, that's because it's exactly what it would be. Literally the only way to make this not affect progression and be relevant content is by removing the timer and removing the extra item from beating the timer. Every other situation is explained in my previous post and is perfectly logical. Of course we can't really know FOR A FACT without really implementing it but I've been around this for ages both as a hobby and a job to have a pretty accurate educated guess. We used to have 1 difficulty of dungeon and 1 difficulty of raiding, the power progression was insanely different compared to today, and literally all they did was add different form of difficulty for the exact same content, which is exactly what you're asking, so it's pretty safe to say it will change a lot of things again, and people are already complaining there's too many difficulty levels and range of item power within the same tiers.
If you think there would be something good to gain from this, go ahead and explain, I seriously do not see it.

If the timer changes nothing, then why was it added in the first place?

Playing a game is literally a psychological activity. I don't believe it's Blizzard's responsibility to do anything for either side (and no one is saying that), but I do believe it is entirely reasonable to want such a mode. Like I've said above, efficiency is possible to strive for regardless of the timer.

There's a lot of people who don't enjoy taking the game very seriously and/or playing with stakes. It's a preference, not a disability.

This goes back to point 1, the timer is added to give a bonus. Yes efficiency is possible regardless of the timer, that's what people did before, play fast pace just to win real time, now there's a timer giving you a bonus for foing the exact same thing. If your goal is to play like people have been doing forever, fast and efficient, then you can hide the timer, do your run as if there was no timer, and just collect your 3 items after UNKNOWINGLY beating the timer. I personnally never look at the timer, we finish the dungeon and I ask "did we make it?" cuz I have legit no freaking clue, sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. And we all move on to the next because ... well... it doesn't matter at all lol, it's behind us already who gives a shit, just keep playing and keep improving no matter what. If there was a real punishment when failing the timer (like not allowed to finish, or get zero item, or lose gold or something) then I would 100% agree with you, but one less item is nothing, specially considering you're most likely gonna get nothing or something useless anyway.

People are perfectly allowed to not take the game seriously and play more carefree. They should also get the rewards that come with playing like that. Why should they get the same reward as people taking the game seriously and overcoming challenges?

I think you're focusing way too much on that timer considering how little the consequence for failing really is. Try running some M+ while hiding the timer, see how it goes and how it affects your mindset, I'm pretty sure it's gonna be way different and you'll feel better and less stressed. I also bet you will have the same rate of success.

[FelPlague]

In raiding you can take as long as you want in between bosses and trash packs. There are timers within each fight, but there is not an instance-wide timer. You don't have to complete the entirety of the raid within X hours or instead be punished.

And you can fail as many times as you want at a raid boss and go back to trying it again, you don't need to start the whole raid instance from scratch.



Who are you to decide exactly how hard or easy the game should be for everyone else?

Who am i to decide? who are you to decide?
see how easy that is.
Blizz decides how easy or hard the game is for people.
Blizz set the difficulty.
you want it easier, so you are saying you are the person who gets to decide exactly how hard or easy the game should be.
I disagree, it is fine as is.


You literally were just speaking to yourself. WHO ARE YOU to decide exactly how hard or easy the game should be for everyone else?

And yes, inbetween raid bosses you can take as long as you like.
But a raid boss is equivilent to a full M+ clear.
You need to deal with a progress bar, to clear, you have mechanics to deal with, and you need to do it in a specific amount of time, if you do so, if you beat it, you get loot.
but already M+ is far easier, again, cause you can take as long as you need and still get loot, you cant do that with a raid boss.
you cant do 10% of a raid bosses health, then afk till hero is off cooldown, then do another 10%, and keep doing that over and over and over.


There is no fucking existance of groups that are lfr geared, and go "we will eventually do this mythic boss" but there is TONS of groups who upon a patch releasing, do the hardest possible dungeon, like a +15, with super undergeared charecters, by killing pack at a time, using all their cooldowns, then popping LITERALLY EVERYTHING at dungeon bosses. using tons of brez, and hero every boss.

[CrawlFromThePit]

All I'm saying is let people turn off the "timer" aspect of the M+ challenge and, in exchange, their M+ experience is altered by resulting in less overall quantity of loot (but still getting loot on completion) as well as keys climbing by only +1 at a time (takes longer to get to higher levels).

The key going up is to lead progression based on how well you did in the previous run, it's a reward in itself. You're suggesting it should be possible to spend 5 hours in one dungeon, getting through it by the skin of your dick and still be allowed to get loot AND go into harder content (for potentially better loot)? No, that's too much reward for not being good. It's a very bad mentality not only for the game but for everything in life. Rewards should be deserved, failure should not be rewarded, it should be used as motivation to get better so we can deserve the rewards.

[Jastall]

Except that initial M+ release is nothing like I "suggested".
Nowhere did I "suggest" that, should you not complete the dungeon, your key is "dead" and the following run, regardless of outcome, would yield no loot.
All I'm saying is let people turn off the "timer" aspect of the M+ challenge and, in exchange, their M+ experience is altered by resulting in less overall quantity of loot (but still getting loot on completion) as well as keys climbing by only +1 at a time (takes longer to get to higher levels).

At any level that matters you key seldom gets more than +1. Sure, if you have a bunch of 2k score people in a 10 they will likely +2 or even +3 that shit, but that is a rare occurrence. You're hardly proposing a significant disadvantage.

Also, unless you're chain farming M+ early in the season (in which case you don't care much about timers one way or another), the best loot to come out of the system isn't the end of run chest, it's the weelky one with its boatload of AP, residuum, and Mythic-level gear.

If you turn off one of the core mechanics of M+, your rewards should be far lower. No weekly chest for you. And maybe -5 ilvl to end of run loot. It's not much different from stepping down to a lower difficulty in a raid, which nets you a -15 ilvl penalty, so I think that's a fair bargain.

[Jujudrood]

But why wouldn't people just turn off the timer to get higher keys? Guaranteed bump with no time limit is better then trying to push and failing. You can't just "turn off timer" and have it still interact with timed Mythic+. Because the timer is the entire reason why Mythic+ is a challenge. Heck most of the affixes are no longer an issue if you have "unlimited" time to counter them.

Also if non timed runs still boost the keystone why would a failed timed run not also boost the keystone? You would be punishing those who fail a timed run instead of just turning the timer off. You would also have to get less loot from a failed timed run since failed runs are supposed to still have rewards. And a failed timed run is more difficult then a no timer run.

In my initial post, I said to make effectively two "types", where timed and un-timed are two separate paths.
The key would only boost on success; if you fail to complete it in the daily lockout (or a smaller window, like 4 hours, whatever it gets defined as), it would still downgrade just like normal, which the only change on completion being just a +1 regardless of performance.

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At any level that matters you key seldom gets more than +1. Sure, if you have a bunch of 2k score people in a 10 they will likely +2 or even +3 that shit, but that is a rare occurrence. You're hardly proposing a significant disadvantage.

Also, unless you're chain farming M+ early in the season (in which case you don't care much about timers one way or another), the best loot to come out of the system isn't the end of run chest, it's the weelky one with its boatload of AP, residuum, and Mythic-level gear.

If you turn off one of the core mechanics of M+, your rewards should be far lower. No weekly chest for you. And maybe -5 ilvl to end of run loot. It's not much different from stepping down to a lower difficulty in a raid, which nets you a -15 ilvl penalty, so I think that's a fair bargain.

I would also be fine with the penalty of "not timed" being different.
If they just make two types (timed, not timed), they can have their own similar, yet different rules in operation, loot, reward, etc etc etc.
You are already getting less loot because it mimics a failed "timed" run per completed un-timed run, so maybe also limiting the weekly chest in some capacity is also a fair trade, as timed would still yield the best results.

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The key going up is to lead progression based on how well you did in the previous run, it's a reward in itself. You're suggesting it should be possible to spend 5 hours in one dungeon, getting through it by the skin of your dick and still be allowed to get loot AND go into harder content (for potentially better loot)? No, that's too much reward for not being good. It's a very bad mentality not only for the game but for everything in life. Rewards should be deserved, failure should not be rewarded, it should be used as motivation to get better so we can deserve the rewards.

But isn't getting through by "the skin of your dick" exactly what happens in Mythic raids?
Do these guilds not spend hours upon hours and attempts upon attempts to down the bosses?

Look, if someone wants to marathon a 5 hour M+, that's on them.
But, if they kill the boss, even if by pure miracle, is the boss not dead?

I'm not saying throw loot at everyone; hell, there's far too much purple rain as it is.
All I'm saying is let people do an untimed run, let them get less overall rewards (in quantity and quality), and let them fuck off into their own world while the rest of the people who like M+ continue the timed runs and get better overall stuff.

[rhorle]

In my initial post, I said to make effectively two "types", where timed and un-timed are two separate paths.
The key would only boost on success; if you fail to complete it in the daily lockout (or a smaller window, like 4 hours, whatever it gets defined as), it would still downgrade just like normal, which the only change on completion being just a +1 regardless of performance.

But why would anyone do a timed run if you can get progression, loot, and basically no failure through a no timer run? The flip side is why would people do a no timer mode if they can get upgrades and progression from timed runs easier? I am not saying there couldn't be a place for it. I just think the place is relatively low considering the amount of people that don't want to do a "completion with out timer" run now.

Yes if you do that now your key still gets downgraded. But at some point you should naturally beat the timer even if you don't aim to do so. Because your gear level and skill level will naturally hit a keystone level that you can hit with out trying. You still get loot from failed timed runs now. So the system is pretty much there but people don't want to choose to do so. They want the game to force people to play a certain way since people rarely choose to play that way.

It just seems like a big waste of resources to maintain two very similar modes that brings little pay off for having both.

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Do these guilds not spend hours upon hours and attempts upon attempts to down the bosses?

Isn't that missing the mark of who a change like this is supposed to be for though? It isn't for the 1% Mythic raiders that will do 1,000s of pulls. It is aimed at the few who are afraid of timers for whatever reason. These people are not typical those that would spend 5 hours banging their head on the wall for one encounter. It also brings into question the challenges of designing encounters for 5 people but still allow every class/spec a "fair" chance at doing that content. Sure that balance isn't there for high keys already but it would be worse for a 5-man raid.

[CrawlFromThePit]

But isn't getting through by "the skin of your dick" exactly what happens in Mythic raids?
Do these guilds not spend hours upon hours and attempts upon attempts to down the bosses?

Look, if someone wants to marathon a 5 hour M+, that's on them.
But, if they kill the boss, even if by pure miracle, is the boss not dead?

I'm not saying throw loot at everyone; hell, there's far too much purple rain as it is.
All I'm saying is let people do an untimed run, let them get less overall rewards (in quantity and quality), and let them fuck off into their own world while the rest of the people who like M+ continue the timed runs and get better overall stuff.

The mythic raid comparison IMO would be, if they kill the boss in X time they get more loot than what they get right now. The current drops from raid boss would not be the "beat the timer" amount of loot, it would be the "fail the timer" loots.

If people are fine with a no timer M+ with lesser or weaker loot then so be it, I have no problems with that. But the consensus around here about no timer M+ is to also get the regular reward for beating timer, that is what I can't agree with.

[Minikin]

Take away timer but increase the difficulty

For example:
1. If you die, apply a debuff, like dmg taken increased. healing reduced. Something that punishes a player for standing in fire.
2. Maybe add an option. Keep the mythic setup as is OR discard timer but introduce an additional affix. So instead of 3 its 4 or instead of 4 its 5. Though already imagining a week with necro, bursting, grevious, bolstering, fortified...is just making me spiral.
3. Or just throw out the concept of keystones. Make a singular mythic like challenge mode from MoP. Keep scaling, no timer, add random affix.


As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.

[rhorle]

As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.

but how is that any different from being in the middle of a boss fight? You can't pause the game or do you leave your raid group hanging and go afk? Yes it is a video game. That however does not mean you can't also make short term commitments while playing it. Your argument is essentially sporting events should pause while you go get another beer or go to the bathroom.

Things in life sometimes require you to make a commitment. Things in life sometimes are more important than what you are doing at that moment. That is a choice you make.

[Kehego]

Take away timer but increase the difficulty

For example:
1. If you die, apply a debuff, like dmg taken increased. healing reduced. Something that punishes a player for standing in fire.
2. Maybe add an option. Keep the mythic setup as is OR discard timer but introduce an additional affix. So instead of 3 its 4 or instead of 4 its 5. Though already imagining a week with necro, bursting, grevious, bolstering, fortified...is just making me spiral.
3. Or just throw out the concept of keystones. Make a singular mythic like challenge mode from MoP. Keep scaling, no timer, add random affix.


As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.

timer is fine

your suggestions are all trash.

[Asrialol]

Take away timer but increase the difficulty

For example:
1. If you die, apply a debuff, like dmg taken increased. healing reduced. Something that punishes a player for standing in fire.
2. Maybe add an option. Keep the mythic setup as is OR discard timer but introduce an additional affix. So instead of 3 its 4 or instead of 4 its 5. Though already imagining a week with necro, bursting, grevious, bolstering, fortified...is just making me spiral.
3. Or just throw out the concept of keystones. Make a singular mythic like challenge mode from MoP. Keep scaling, no timer, add random affix.


As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.

You should consider that certain types of content isn't for you if that's your mindset. You're choosing to pay for the sub - and you get to choose how you spend your time online. With your logic, mythic raiding should be removed, any fight or content that takes longer than 5 min should be removed. After all, real life might need your attention.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Take away timer but increase the difficulty

For example:
1. If you die, apply a debuff, like dmg taken increased. healing reduced. Something that punishes a player for standing in fire.
2. Maybe add an option. Keep the mythic setup as is OR discard timer but introduce an additional affix. So instead of 3 its 4 or instead of 4 its 5. Though already imagining a week with necro, bursting, grevious, bolstering, fortified...is just making me spiral.
3. Or just throw out the concept of keystones. Make a singular mythic like challenge mode from MoP. Keep scaling, no timer, add random affix.


As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.

Game content is designed for people playing. Not for people trying to squeeze in a few minutes of fun in between real life obligations and responsibilities. You're supposed to play as a hobby when you have nothing else to do, keyword: nothing, as in it's impossible the door bell rings, you took care of kids and the wife is diong her thing while you do yours. For other moments then you're free to do the meaningless content like WQs and shit, or just play something else. When you commit to playing with other people you shouldn't be in a situation where maybe you'll have to stop everyone's game so you can do your stuff. I know it's not the case in the game, I know most people don't see it like this. I just strongly believe all these people should not play and I know I wouldn't play this game if I that was my life, so I don't understand why so many people do it, there's plenty of better games out there much better suited for that lifestyle. WoW is just a game like any other, it's not special or better or more worth it, it's not a lifestyle or an obligation.

Like you said it's just a game, nothing compared to real life, so put life first and pick a game that suits your lifestyle instead of WoW.

[Minikin]

You should consider that certain types of content isn't for you if that's your mindset. You're choosing to pay for the sub - and you get to choose how you spend your time online. With your logic, mythic raiding should be removed, any fight or content that takes longer than 5 min should be removed. After all, real life might need your attention.

Boss fights do not take average 30min. I did take my change in life into effect. I do not do keys higher than 9 even though I can double start 9s easy. Because I know my situation can change quick and I'd rather not screw over someone's key. Mythic dungeons require you to push for 20min at the least constantly.

Payment for a sub is not a concern. I've had a running sub since BC and have gone months not playing.

This is entirely about the value of a timer. A timer is a solution for gameplay but it can definitely be refined as better options are available they just require more effort from devs and players. Devs because an affix system would be more work to implement than just slapping a timer. Players because dealing with a higher difficulty, at least in my opinion, is a higher test of skill than just rushing.

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timer is fine

your suggestions are all trash.

I guess you just aren't good enough to try higher end game play. Must suck at this game.