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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Can you provide a example?
    Every single Bind on Equip item has allowed people to buy power. It shouldn't matter that the power that can be bought is now bigger then before.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That seems way to basic. Because everything in the game is going to be the same since nothing is really different enough then. Raiding is the same as 5-mans just enemies now blow up etc. Mythic 0 and Mythic 16 are different for the sole fact that you have affixes versus no affix. Which is the same as a raid boss having abilities versus a quest elite having none.
    You're right.

    The thing that makes some of those different ENOUGH (for me at least), are the aesthetics and the context of it. Every boss fight in the game can be boiled down to "do mechanics, don't die, blow up boss until it drops loot" but the aesthetics of what's going on in the fight make it FEEL and LOOK different even when the fight's are literally identical. That perception is incredibly important.

    Obviously most have different mechanics, so they ARE different fights both aesthetically and mechanically. However, when it comes to Mythic+ they're not even different fights, overall they have the same mechanics and they have identical aesthetics, there's just a little spice added to the rest of the dungeon to make it more difficult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I get where you're coming from, but I'm sorry a m0 is a totally different experience than a m16, hell a m15 is different than a 16 LOL - I get I'm kind of talking about difficulty, but uhhh when you go in on m0 and litearlly just hit whirlwind or whatever AOE you have and everything is instantly killed, you go in on a 10 and do that bs without a tank and you instantly DIE - I mean you have to understand what EACH MOB does what their toolkits are how to CC how to dodge what the tanks doing how to beat the time, how to work with a team.. most peope here are complaining about a game they DONT EVEN PLAY lol.

    Personally I think if people don't like wow, it's time to hang up the mantle and go play fortnite - that's what all the COOL KIDS are doing these days

    Agreed, and I get that PVP is obviously player driven - but it's like LOL, M0 is almost a different game than even M5 or M10
    And I completely understand where you're coming from. Because you ARE doing something different, by virtue of the difficulty, it's a different experience for you. For me, that's just not enough to make it interesting or different ENOUGH.

    For me, it's like playing any other game on different difficulty settings. It's not a different game, the story is not different, the aesthetics aren't different, the enemies aren't different they just act differently so you have to play differently. That difference is not enough to make me want to play it again, after I've beaten it on Normal.

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Every single Bind on Equip item has allowed people to buy power. It shouldn't matter that the power that can be bought is now bigger then before.
    Except it does... there is a world of difference between buying a blue starter pvp or pve item and something that adds the same strength as gaining a additional trinket slot.

    The only way any item that is 440 with infinite stars or another good corruption is replaced is with a item with the same procs. A 35 ilv difference isn't as big as a good rng.

    I refuse to believe that mythic gear being VASTLY inferior to world quest rewards isn't new and impactful. To pretend otherwise is folly.
    Last edited by Rogue Karl; 2020-03-02 at 07:08 PM.

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I'm actually just replying because tbh I want to see your armory. Someone who tells me a mythic 0 and a mythic 16 is the same exact experience makes me wonder what in the F is even going on in this conversation
    Please, show me where I said it's "exactly the same experience".

    How about you surf back a few pages and actually read what we've been discussing, rather than pretending to know what the conversation is about in an attempt to participate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That seems way to basic. Because everything in the game is going to be the same since nothing is really different enough then. Raiding is the same as 5-mans just enemies now blow up etc. Mythic 0 and Mythic 16 are different for the sole fact that you have affixes versus no affix. Which is the same as a raid boss having abilities versus a quest elite having none.
    Every experience is marginally different; if you make lasagne today it will be every so slightly different than the lasagne you'll make next week. It's not a completely new dish though; you're still eating lasagne.

    Now imagine eating the same few dishes for months. I don't know about you, but I'd be nauseated merely by the thought of any of those dishes. Adding some new ingredients or seasonings wouldn't be enough for me to consider it a new and refreshing dish.

    Now consider the fact that wow dungeons and raids are generally similar to begin with and the game's selling point is based on treadmill behaviour [which indirectly drives you to repeat content beyond enjoyment], it's even more important that there's enough variety.

    My hypothesis is simple: M+ dungeons have become massive grind many people do for loot. People, generally don't like grinds, ergo they want to get in and get out as fast as possible. How can you accomplish that? By making damn sure everyone in the group has enough experience and gear to minimise risk of failure.

    Am I a 100% correct? Fuck if I know, it's a hypothesis, after all.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2020-03-02 at 08:31 PM.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Except it does... there is a world of difference between buying a blue starter pvp or pve item and something that adds the same strength as gaining a additional trinket slot.
    Every content tier has had BoE drop. Which means people were buying epics and obviously they were upgrades for someone because people were buying them. If it is a problem now then it should have already been a problem then. Because buying power is buying power. It shouldn't only be a problem to buy power when you can potentially buy a powerful proc.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Every content tier has had BoE drop. Which means people were buying epics and obviously they were upgrades for someone because people were buying them. If it is a problem now then it should have already been a problem then. Because buying power is buying power. It shouldn't only be a problem to buy power when you can potentially buy a powerful proc.
    It's the difference between something being a good starting item being almost or even slightly better then what the raid drops for that slot by a few percentages vs something that flat out buffs your output by upwards of 10%.

    Even with the most powerful of crafted items like lions helm or the darkmoon faire cards nothing has come this close in terms of power rewarded solely by luck of the dice or cashing in massive amounts of gold.

    Is it pay to win? I would say yes myself as even if your selling carries odds are a token is paying for the drop in some way.

    Regardless it is horrid game design. Your class shouldn't just not work because you didn't get a lucky loot box style proc.

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Do you think it decided it for the ones who truly are and were the best in the past...like where it "matters" at the top of pvp or raiding? From Death&Taxes to Ensidia, SKGaming, Paragon, Method, Limit...was it all only "millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash" - or were these ppl just insanely good anyhow?

    And if it matters, it matters because somebody created the game and can set the rules as they want. You / we can decide to go with it or not.

    ...and I don't even want to bring RL into this anymore..where you truly get fucked and can cry "is this fair" all you want and literally the universe does not care.

    But this is a game...this is your hobby. This is not water or air or food or shelter that you desperately need to survive. This is a game where a company sets the rules. Protest against them? Fine...you can and you should. But at the end of the day, you decide if you put down your money and waste your limited time on this planet inside this game...or you don't....
    in the end this completely doesnt matter. because with 1% of your customers (the elite, method, etc), even with the best cash grab systems in the world, you never will make much profit.

    paying gear, or paid runs, or whatever, for money, is made for the mid ground masses, not the extremes. there is the money.

    so, regardless what someones oppinion is, the elite have a good marketing effect, to attract ppl („look at method, i wanna be this guy“ as extreme, take not to serious, example). but you not make money with them.

  8. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    It's the difference between something being a good starting item being almost or even slightly better then what the raid drops for that slot by a few percentages vs something that flat out buffs your output by upwards of 10%.
    But that is irrelevant to BoE's being pay to win. Just because it is a super upgrade doesn't make it any different then using gold, token, etc to buy a different BoE. Also your class very much does still work with out the best corruption. The is a difference between not working and best dps.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But that is irrelevant to BoE's being pay to win. Just because it is a super upgrade doesn't make it any different then using gold, token, etc to buy a different BoE. Also your class very much does still work with out the best corruption. The is a difference between not working and best dps.
    10 to 14% in higher end content is your class working or not. I don't really see why you feel compelled to defend this practice.

    I suspect it simply doesn't effect you and you like the concept of gaining extremely powerful game breaking items.

    I can just see the harm of making extremely rare items be the gate keeping mechanic preventing players from clearing harder content.

    You can not finish this tier without ideal or near ideal corruption rolls. That itself should be setting off red flags.

    I have zero desire for wows end game to turn into who can spend the most gold or get lucky enough to get in.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    10 to 14% in higher end content is your class working or not. I don't really see why you feel compelled to defend this practice.
    To defend what that BoE's have always been able to be bought with real money since tokens have been introduced? Because that is all I've been commenting on. You are the one who keeps trying to distract by making it about the balance of corruption. No class is broken from not having corruption.

    Also lets see the math and sims that says you can not finish this tier with out perfect corruption rolls?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    To defend what that BoE's have always been able to be bought with real money since tokens have been introduced? Because that is all I've been commenting on. You are the one who keeps trying to distract by making it about the balance of corruption. No class is broken from not having corruption.

    Also lets see the math and sims that says you can not finish this tier with out perfect corruption rolls?
    I am pointing out the difference in how powerful these items are compared to their predecessors.

    Rather then do the math can I not simply point to how no guild in existence has cleared the tier without these items?

    This isn't the same old same old these items actively break the game.

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    I am pointing out the difference in how powerful these items are compared to their predecessors. Rather then do the math can I not simply point to how no guild in existence has cleared the tier without these items? This isn't the same old same old these items actively break the game.
    By why does the power make a difference for "pay to win"? Just because no guild has done it yet does not mean it is impossible to do. Using your logic the boss was impossible to kill up until the world first kill. Then with nothing changing the impossible magically became possible. Majority of the game will never even clear Mythic when current content. That doesn't mean it is "impossible".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    Eve comes to mind. It is good? Well, it is still around so it must be making money. But it does not seem to have been the same level of success as WoW in terms of players and revenue.
    Hmm....EVE is good in that it provides a particular niche kind of game. And it's good mainly because of the player community and the unique nature of the game. The actual mechanics of the game are.....complex. But I don't know if I'd call it good. I'd say that Elite Dangerous is probably a more enjoyable game to play, mechanically speaking. There's a reason EVE has the nickname "Spreadsheet the MMO".

    But one thing I don't know that I've ever heard EVE get a reputation for is exploiting it's playerbase. I haven't done a lot of research into it, to be honest. I know they have a cosmetic cash shop, though. both for ships and characters. And the PLEX is the inspiration for the WoW token. However, the PLEX is fully integrated into the game's economy. Everything is made by players. Real world studies use EVE as a model for economics. Unlike wow which doesn't have anywhere near that kind of complete economic system with gold.

    I would be interested to hear the opinion of a real economist who's played and studied both games.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I don't agree with your point of view. They are - in fact - working for it; they're spending time to form a group that fullfils their requirements and they're actually clearing the content. Merely because they don't comply to your definition of "working for it", doesn't make their approach invalid.
    Paying for a boost, paying for carries, paying for gold. All with a credit card. They're not actually playing the game in any recognizable fashion. What is the point of playing a game if all you're actually doing is just throwing your real world credit card at it? That's not playing. That's spending. The context of the game is almost entirely being ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Again, you're worrying too much about how others play the game and your projecting your view of how the game "should be played" onto others. If you want to play a game in particular way, gopher it. Just don't attempt to force others into the same route.
    The problem with that is that in a community based game like wow(which is what it is, regardless of the ability to play solo), the actions of other players DOES effect individuals. The desires of others(personal loot is a perfect example of this, regardless of the outcome) WILL influence how you play the game.

    The point you're making about not being concerned with how other people play the game is only valid if a player LITERALLY never engages with any of the multiplayer aspects of the game. NEver uses LFR. Never uses the AH. Never uses matchmaking. Never encounters someone else farming. There are people who do that, and more power to them. But they are not the target of this discussion, nor do they particularly have any influence, or stake in the game or discussion either. I'd guess that there are not actually that many people even attempting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I disagree wholeheartedly. Dark Souls would be the exact same game to me, if there'd been an easy mode for it;.
    That's like a flat earther claiming that the world would be the same "to me". You can have whatever personal subjective opinion you like. You can claim the sky is a psychedelic mix of different colored eyeballs and tentacles. That doesn't change what the sky actually is. Dark Souls is a phenomenon in the gaming world. It is so because of the effects of it's difficulty on the gaming community, and the experiences of those players. That is an effect that would NOT be the same if it had an EZ mode. That isn't a subjective opinion of mine. That's fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Why are you assuming Blizzard or any other developer, wants to creat a product that appeals to everyone?
    Blizzard has very specifically gone out of their way to make WoW accessible to as broad of a player as possible. But that wasn't the point I was making. I was making a conditional statement. If you try to make a product that appeals to everyone, then your product will likely fail to appeal to anyone. That's the extreme that it appears Blizzard is aiming at in order to cast a more broad net while fishing for addicts and whales.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I think you're being overly dramatic again; most people don't buy 500 euro worth of gold, for a few auction house pieces of loot.
    Most people don't have to! That's not how the business model or tactic works. You only need a small proportion of whales to normal players, and maybe a handful of super-whales, in order to be profitable.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-03-03 at 12:09 AM.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by Xauro View Post
    One item that does a large amount of your total damage. That you could buy as an BOE for real life money. Is that not pay to win DPS meter? I spent 100+ hours and havent gotten a good corrupt. Someone could just buy this BOE and beat me on dps so easy....and this is not pay to win? Ok then!
    If getting smashed on the meters cause your bad is pay2win then it's always been that way for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    You couldn't LEGALLY buy gold. You always ran the risk of losing your entire account.

    Stop spouting bullshit.


    The game is the very definition of pay to win now.

    You can buy Mythic boss mounts now with real money. Mounts less than 5% of the playerbase used to have.
    Just because a method of buying gold doesn't fit your narrative doesn't mean it didn't exist. If buying gold is pay 2 win then it doesn't matter what the method is no matter how risky.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  15. #855
    anyway
    until blizzard directly sells gear/power, it's not p2w

    ya? ya.

  16. #856
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    he thing is that you find shit if you look for shit and you can find good stuff if you look for it..
    I guess I look at it this way: If you see a storm coming(figuratively or literally), do you look our your window and say "Well it's not effecting me!" and don't prepare?

    There is an ever increasing trend of game companies to lean towards exploitative business models, much more prevalent in the mobile market, but gaining ground in the PC and console market as well. The gaming industry surpassed both the movie and music industry as far as revenue.

    So when I see more and more of these kinds of trends of using shady tactics, psychological manipulation, and consumer unfriendly practices, I don't just ignore it and say "well I just don't play that way". It's especially dangerous to take that mindset when all it takes is something like 1 out of every 10 players to be a whale for those kinds of business models to work. You have game companies like EA who literally fight entire countries' laws about gambling in order to pursue predatory designs in their games. You have companies like ATVI willing to alter the appearance, design, and the policies of their games and business in order to appease oppressive countries like China.

    I'm sorry, but it's not enough to just say "It doesn't effect me", because mostly is eventually WILL.

    I completely understand that for a lot of people games represent an escape. It's entertainment, and it's VERY uncomfortable to confront these kinds of concepts. I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to deal with that in their fun. But that doesn't change the reality of where the gaming industry is heading. Not looking at a problem won't make it go away.

  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Rather blizzard said it was illegal or not doesn’t really matter when thousands if not millions got away with it any way. You have always been able to spend real money for power in wow the sites to do so are still around today.
    True, but how many of those sad people got their accounts hacked after they bought gold? Also, I doubt the gold-buying trend was as popular as you say it was, else there would have been no need for the kind of aggressive marketing strategies the gold farmers utilized. No need to whisper bomb every player you can find when a full 20% of the player base is a customer.

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    By why does the power make a difference for "pay to win"? Just because no guild has done it yet does not mean it is impossible to do. Using your logic the boss was impossible to kill up until the world first kill. Then with nothing changing the impossible magically became possible. Majority of the game will never even clear Mythic when current content. That doesn't mean it is "impossible".
    I am just going to assume your arguing to argue.

    I made my case. If you can buy 20% of your characters output from the ah with items that are flat out better then anything else that can drop in the game ( barring massive rng in your favor) and those items are what make harder content possible as the logs show. I am going to assume it's either terrible balancing or a push for pay to win.

    Right now as the game stands you can have better output then most mythic players by simply dropping cash and buying items off the ah. The use of a middle man though the token system doesn't really change that fact.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    If you can buy 20% of your characters output from the ah with items that are flat out better then anything else that can drop in the game ( barring massive rng in your favor) and those items are what make harder content possible as the logs show. I am going to assume it's either terrible balancing or a push for pay to win. Right now as the game stands you can have better output then most mythic players by simply dropping cash and buying items off the ah. The use of a middle man though the token system doesn't really change that fact.
    All upgrades make harder content possible. Those specific things are not required for that harder content though and logs do not prove that they are. Merely that guilds can use that power to prop themselves up. You have yet to provide any proof that it is impossible to do with out. Of course you are going to claim I'm arguing to argue because you have no proof so you need to dismiss and discredit what I'm saying.

    If you can have better output then most mythic raiders then why haven't those mythic raiders bought the same items? You could always buy your way to more power since tokens existed because BoE's have not been changed. You could buy your way to more power then most mythic raiders if you bought all BoE's within the first week of a raiding opening. That is just the nature of Bind on Equip. Yet here you are yelling about water being wet.

    It doesn't matter if the power is 1% or 90%. What matters is that is how it has always been because that is exactly what Bind on Equip items are for. For people to buy their power. With gold. With Tokens. With Cash (third party). Or some other trade/barter.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #860
    I don't think there is ingame system developed by blizzard to kill you whole raids and get the best PVP rewards for gold or real money.

    So no. Its not pay to win.

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