Can Arthas be held accountable for his crimes?

[Aucald]

Storywise though, it was pride that was both Garrosh's strength, motivation, and ultimate downfall.

Garrosh had many attributes, with pride definitely among them. Garrosh kind of epitomized all the greater Sha in his way: Anger, Despair, Fear, Hatred, Violence, Doubt, and Pride.

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But I do think pride being the one that wasn't banished by Shao Hao and being so prominent in the storyline, plus being a boss in the last raid is an indicator of what they were actually trying to say.
I personally think that pride is the hardest to perceive on your own, if you are prideful. It's sometimes not even obvious to others that your real problem is pride, because pride can mask itself as almost everything. Sometimes pride is even considered a good thing and being humble as a weakness. This was as much a problem for Garrosh (which made him the perfect candidate for the Sha of Pride) as it was for Arthas (which made him a perfect candidate for the Lich King and the Nathrezim).

Pride wasn't banished by Shaohao because it was part of him, as well; as per your description below he wasn't looking for it in himself due to his own pride in his actions and standing. It's also a recurring motif for the Pandaren themselves, both generally and specifically - they are often prideful, sure of themselves and their way of life. But that being said, pride is an attribute of a person, and not really a thing that can stand on its own (outside the Sha itself, perhaps). Pride was an element of Garrosh, sure; but that's not all he was.

[formerShandalay]

Killing them stopped the turning process midway. Also it's very likely that many civilians burned in the fires, which means that Mal'ganis wouldn't have been able to raise their corpses.

But they turned nonetheless. And the ones without bodies (because the bodies were burned) could still be turned into ghosts. That, however, he didn't know.

Thing is, he thought he was trying to save them from becoming undead by killing them. But he already knew this wasn't working. He could kill them once they had turned, but then they'd already be undead. He could have just locked the city down with Uther and Jaina (and the Kirin Tor) and maybe even gotten the ones out who hadn't eaten the grain yet and killed the undead then. But by killing the still living he gained nothing, a fact that he could have been aware of, had he thought about what he had seen before coming to Stratholme for just a moment. There was no way of stopping it.

Pride wasn't banished by Shaohao because it was part of him, as well; as per your description below he wasn't looking for it in himself due to his own pride in his actions and standing. It's also a recurring motif for the Pandaren themselves, both generally and specifically - they are often prideful, sure of themselves and their way of life. But that being said, pride is an attribute of a person, and not really a thing that can stand on its own (outside the Sha itself, perhaps). Pride was an element of Garrosh, sure; but that's not all he was.

The other Sha were part of him too, just pride he wasn't able to banish. He still 'needed' it, because in his pride he used it to separate Pandaria from the rest of the world. The pride was what made the mists of Pandaria possible. He also couldn't perceive it as something as bad as the others, because in a way it actually helped him be what he was.
Which is what I meant with my post. Pride is the hardest to perceive and the hardest to overcome. And if it happens to be one of the more prominent ones in a person that person is usually, because of their pride, very loathe to let go of it. Pride makes for a very good vicious circle. ^^
And yea, all of the vices that make up the Sha are part of everybody. That is the whole point of it being so dangerous, I think. And it makes Y'shaarj's line about him being part of you all the more true.

[Specialka]

Nothing to do with her fans. But if blizzard cares about being woke in the public eye they will certainly not do that. There is a very ugly abuse and rape dynamic between Arthas and Sylvanas. Championing Arthas as the one to end her deeds when he was the major cause of why she ended up screwed in the head. Is. Well. Put 2 and 2 together.

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He doesen't deserve redemption. Period.

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Yes. Exactly that. Hold the city under lock. Send in priest and mage teams. Get non infected citizens out. And work with the Kirin Tor in search of a cure. Easy as that. It's better then a mindless slaughter.

Yeah sure. And when your mages and priests start turning into undead, what would you do? And when Mal'Ganis will sabotage your effort, what will you do? etc...
You are wrong, period.

[Varodoc]

But they turned nonetheless. And the ones without bodies (because the bodies were burned) could still be turned into ghosts. That, however, he didn't know.

Thing is, he thought he was trying to save them from becoming undead by killing them. But he already knew this wasn't working. He could kill them once they had turned, but then they'd already be undead. He could have just locked the city down with Uther and Jaina (and the Kirin Tor) and maybe even gotten the ones out who hadn't eaten the grain yet and killed the undead then. But by killing the still living he gained nothing, a fact that he could have been aware of, had he thought about what he had seen before coming to Stratholme for just a moment. There was no way of stopping it.

Mal'ganis was there, he would've never let Arthas and co. lock the city. Mal'ganis was never interested in Stratholme, his goal was to lure Arthas into a trap. If he saw that Arthas was not playing along, he would've changed his strategy.

Also, the people that Arthas killed were not turned into undead. Even in the game, killing the civilians before they turn into undead stops the transformation process.

[Varitok]

Arthas chose to purge Stratholme. He chose to pursue Mal'ganis to Northrend. He chose to burn the ships and frame the mercenaries. He chose to pick-up Frostmourne rather than use the Light to heal his friend and retreat. He chose not to heed the warnings that were given to him. Frostmourne consumed his soul once he touched it and everything beyond that was not under his agency, because agency requires will to be such, so nothing beyond that is "Arthas".

But the fact things reached that point? That was all his choice and the whole point is that characters around him cared enough to warn him at every turn and he continued regardless. Arthas' greatest crime and weakness was Pride.

I always felt iffy on the purge. It doesn't discriminate and his decision to purge, while the wrong one and he paid the price, wasn't completely crazy. You'd be hard pressed to find a real world comparison who wouldn't consider the same thing he did, especially if the victims turned into undead beasts.

Regardless of all that, it will just a snowball effect that was amplified by his Moby dick like story to kill Mal'ganis. I think his story is a lot more tragic than most people would like to let on and I also think he was far too unready to command an army.

OT: He got his punishment, the ultimate punishment, death.

[formerShandalay]

Mal'ganis was there, he would've never let Arthas and co. lock the city. Mal'ganis was never interested in Stratholme, his goal was to lure Arthas into a trap. If he saw that Arthas was not playing along, he would've changed his strategy.

Also, the people that Arthas killed were not turned into undead. Even in the game, killing the civilians before they turn into undead stops the transformation process.

Because it takes a moment for them to turn if they are already dead. I mean, in the game they somehow had to incentivize the player to actually do this, but look at Stratholme now, look at the lore in Rise of the Lich King and look at the ingame book by Antonidas, look at what happens with even people long dead lying in soil that has been saturated by the plague, they all turn. If not into 'zombies' then into ghosts.

I do think that Arthas thought he was doing the right thing. But as you say, Mal'ganis was there and he challenged him even. He could have known from that alone that this wasn't going to work the way he thought it would. But only if he had not been so dead set on being the only one who knew what's best. And that, at least, was no outside influence, that was a character flaw in Arthas himself.

[Grazrug]

Yeah sure. And when your mages and priests start turning into undead, what would you do? And when Mal'Ganis will sabotage your effort, what will you do? etc...
You are wrong, period.

No. They wouldn't turn because they haven't eaten the infected crops. What Arthas did however just speed dialed the downfall of lordaeron a bit harder. Stratholme is still full of undead and burns. His decision was wrong. Everyone whom isn't Arthas himself tells you that.

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Mal'ganis was there, he would've never let Arthas and co. lock the city. Mal'ganis was never interested in Stratholme, his goal was to lure Arthas into a trap. If he saw that Arthas was not playing along, he would've changed his strategy.

Also, the people that Arthas killed were not turned into undead. Even in the game, killing the civilians before they turn into undead stops the transformation process.

The entire city of Stratholme turned undead after the campaign is over. The corpses made it easier for necromancers to work.

[Masser]

He didn't do anything wrong.

[Chonar]

Pride wasn't banished by Shaohao because it was part of him, as well; as per your description below he wasn't looking for it in himself due to his own pride in his actions and standing. It's also a recurring motif for the Pandaren themselves, both generally and specifically - they are often prideful, sure of themselves and their way of life. But that being said, pride is an attribute of a person, and not really a thing that can stand on its own (outside the Sha itself, perhaps). Pride was an element of Garrosh, sure; but that's not all he was.

"Pride. It is the most insidious of Sha. It is good, until it is bad. And then it is more dangerous than all others combined."

People hated the 'fortune cookie wisdom' of Pandaria so much, they became blind to the nuggets of wisdom that were, infact, pretty friggin' great.

[Nnyco]

Yeah, it was totally frostmourne who purged stratholme or butchered the mercenaries that helped him... oh wait he didnt had it then.

[Trassk]

He was held accountable

He's dead Jim

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He didn't do anything wrong.

He died. And if you die in a videogame that's counted as failing

[Evilfish]

Legally insane? We trying to apply "people" laws to WoW again?

Also Arthas was not a good guy. It didn't help that the people around him were also huge assholes.

[Fetus Rex]

He did nothing wrong until he pickd up Frostmourne. And after it wasn't really him. So no, he can't be held accountable for the crimes of DK/LK 'Arthas'.

[Shiza]

He did nothing wrong until he pickd up Frostmourne. And after it wasn't really him. So no, he can't be held accountable for the crimes of DK/LK 'Arthas'.

I would say the culling of Stratholme was morally wrong but necessary and he betrayed his men, his mercenaries and refused to follow the order of his king, but I considering the influence of Frostmourne afterwards, I think its rather questionable that he was send to the Maw, considering that people who did far worse things without being corrupted to that degree were send to better places. Like, wasn't Draka involved in the Draenei Genocide? I remember Durotan being involved.

[eurojust]

People are still debating over the culling?
Even the game tells you that it was the right thing to do :


Mal'Ganis seeks to turn Stratholme's citizens into his Undead slaves. If he is successful, his armies will be unstoppable. You must destroy their homes and put the plagued wretches out of their misery before Mal'Ganis can claim their souls.

[Fetus Rex]

I would say the culling of Stratholme was morally wrong but necessary and he betrayed his men, his mercenaries and refused to follow the order of his king, but I considering the influence of Frostmourne afterwards, I think its rather questionable that he was send to the Maw, considering that people who did far worse things without being corrupted to that degree were send to better places. Like, wasn't Draka involved in the Draenei Genocide? I remember Durotan being involved.

It wasn't morally wrong precisely because it was necessary. He didn't betray his men but mercenaries. Not to mention he was a Prince, their commander and they were acceptable losses.

But I agree that disobeying Terenas was bad.

[Varodoc]

I would say the culling of Stratholme was morally wrong but necessary and he betrayed his men, his mercenaries and refused to follow the order of his king, but I considering the influence of Frostmourne afterwards, I think its rather questionable that he was send to the Maw, considering that people who did far worse things without being corrupted to that degree were send to better places. Like, wasn't Draka involved in the Draenei Genocide? I remember Durotan being involved.

Everyone always makes a big deal that he betrayed the mercenaries, but was it really such a grave action? I mean, sure he was conniving, but those mercenaries were bloodthirsty trolls and ogres... he probably did the world a favour by getting rid of that trash.

[Littleraven]

Once he picked up Frostmourne you could make an argument that his will was not his own but didnt Blizzard say that he actually ended up pushing Ner'zhul out as Lich King? I don't remember all the details but it was something like that where he kinda overpowered his consciousness and became the sole Lich King.

Now that said it still isn't proven that he was of sound mind when he did this. I wouldn't die on a hill for it though lol.

[CoastGrowler]

Call me devil's advocate, but I think he had the balls to actually try and stop the scourge before it became too great of a threat. I don't think he enjoyed the idea of purging Stratholme or picking up a cursed sword, but in the balance of things, he took his chances for a greater good. I's just like Illidan, who, in essence, had the same line of thought.

When arthas murdered his father, he was being driven and posessed by Ner'zhul already. Damn, people do worst things with just a couple of beers.

On the other hand we have passive Uther. If you think about it, he could have tried to talk Arthas out of the idea, and trying to come up with something, but no. He went full butthurt in all his holiness, and simply walked away, leaving Arthas to his luck.

[Varodoc]

Once he picked up Frostmourne you could make an argument that his will was not his own but didnt Blizzard say that he actually ended up pushing Ner'zhul out as Lich King? I don't remember all the details but it was something like that where he kinda overpowered his consciousness and became the sole Lich King.

Now that said it still isn't proven that he was of sound mind when he did this. I wouldn't die on a hill for it though lol.

It's confusing, because there is basically a personality split when he takes up Frostmourne. The "Good" Arthas, the man who wanted to save his people, is the first soul to become captured by Frostmourne, and in his place rises the "Evil" DK Arthas. The Evil Arthas ends up merging with Ner'zhul, and subsequently taking control of the Lich King. This Evil Arthas inherited all of Ner'zhul's memories upon merging with him, and wanted to sever all connections to humanity he had left, that's why he removed his own heart. But a fraction of the Good Arthas remaiend within the Lich King's mind, and he was the only thing that was stopping the Lich King from annihilating Azeroth. Furthermore, the Lich King always kept Jaina's locket close to his heart, as proof that the Good Arthas was still there somwhere.

I suppose the Arbiter doesn't care about these distinctions though. Good Arthas was ultimately just a fraction of the Lich King, he was almost destroyed by Evil Arthas, and that's why he went to the Maw.

Call me devil's advocate, but I think he had the balls to actually try and stop the scourge before it became too great of a threat. I don't think he enjoyed the idea of purging Stratholme or picking up a cursed sword, but in the balance of things, he took his chances for a greater good. I's just like Illidan, who, in essence, had the same line of thought.

He didn't enjoy the Culling. Before starting it, he asks forgiveness to his father for what he must do. Also he is depicted like this in Chronicles Volume 3:



This art proves that Arthas was not taking any pleasure in spilling innocent blood.