Vanilla-WotlK Talents or MoP-onward Talents?

[Romanesca]

A combination of modern talents and old ones, I know Blizzard loves Balance but player choice is far more important.

You could easily have each major talent choice have their own small tree for real customization instead of a flat specific alteration that everyone else has. They need to stop making gear always more important than actual character progression.

I completely agree, the RPG aspect of having 51 or however many talent points for character power and customization should be layered into the current tree. They could make the current tree more active and just make the passive tree an illusion of power by reducing gear stats, so it'll even out either way. Who gives a shit about 100% balance if every class plays and feels the same and there's no progression?

[Big Thanks]

A true "customization nerd" would appreciate how much more customization exists in retail compared to classic.

Im not going to give my opinion as fact anymore.

But is a fact the only time in BfA i felt i had a "crazy spec" was with:

Snake Eyes Otlaw (pre nerfed)
Pistol Shot Burst Outlaw (pre nerfed)
Unbound Chaos Demon Hunter (pre removal)

And guess what happened? Blizzard removed this playstyles from the game
So the ONLY time i managed to feed my Customization fetish...it all got removed from the game.

I dont know what my "customization fetish" is for sure.
I THINK its about playing "builds" that play incredibly different from the "usual stuff"

And is a fact my fetishes were quenched in Wrath...and in BfA they are not quenched.

So by the fact i cant seem to quench my fetish for "crazy builds" in current wow, i assume the customization is shit nowadays. It is at least for me!
For me...

[Coldfrostzero]

Personally, I like the Vanilla - > Wrath talent trees. A point every level so you feel an actual reward every time you see that bright yellow sparkle around your character. However, I can concede that with the levels being increasingly high (ignoring the squish in Shadowlands) talent trees would either be so incredibly long they'd take awhile to fill out and have tons of arbitrary talents that bloat it for no reason or they'd have to have done a level squish sooner.

[arkanon]

Im not going to give my opinion as fact anymore.

But is a fact the only time in BfA i felt i had a "crazy spec" was with:

Snake Eyes Otlaw (pre nerfed)
Pistol Shot Burst Outlaw (pre nerfed)
Unbound Chaos Demon Hunter (pre removal)

And guess what happened? Blizzard removed this playstyles from the game
So the ONLY time i managed to feed my Customization fetish...it all got removed from the game.

I dont know what my "customization fetish" is for sure.
I THINK its about playing "builds" that play incredibly different from the "usual stuff"

And is a fact my fetishes were quenched in Wrath...and in BfA they are not quenched.

So by the fact i cant seem to quench my fetish for "crazy builds" in current wow, i assume the customization is shit nowadays. It is at least for me!
For me...

You want to play specs a completely different way to what is considered the norm - that is fine. That option exists to a greater degree in retail compared to classic, but you seem unable to accept that.

- Talents
- Traits
- Essences
- PvP Talents
- Gear
- Corruption

Every single one of these can create different gameplay styles for each spec, but for some reason, you argue that this is not the case.

Classic has Gear, and Talents.

- - - Updated - - -

Personally, I like the Vanilla - > Wrath talent trees. A point every level so you feel an actual reward every time you see that bright yellow sparkle around your character. However, I can concede that with the levels being increasingly high (ignoring the squish in Shadowlands) talent trees would either be so incredibly long they'd take awhile to fill out and have tons of arbitrary talents that bloat it for no reason or they'd have to have done a level squish sooner.

This is a pretty fair comment - the old talent trees as they were would be a complete nightmare in retail - each level already lacked any real impact, outside of obtaining new abilities, so stretching it out to double the original would just be ugly, and would compound the issue.

0.2% crit - 1/20.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

MoP was good, WoD and onwards wasn't.
Why?
Because of ability pruning and the removal of "hybrid" and support abilities.
MoP was the best the game has ever been in terms of class fantasy, class balance and interesting abilities/mechanics. Yes snapshotting did create some balancing issues with DoT heavy specs in the end but that's easy to fix.

[Unholyground]

I completely agree, the RPG aspect of having 51 or however many talent points for character power and customization should be layered into the current tree. They could make the current tree more active and just make the passive tree an illusion of power by reducing gear stats, so it'll even out either way. Who gives a shit about 100% balance if every class plays and feels the same and there's no progression?

Exactly, the classes have become less and less unique, some specs stand out against the rest but not enough.

[GucciWarr]

Im not going to give my opinion as fact anymore.

But is a fact the only time in BfA i felt i had a "crazy spec" was with:

Snake Eyes Otlaw (pre nerfed)
Pistol Shot Burst Outlaw (pre nerfed)
Unbound Chaos Demon Hunter (pre removal)

And guess what happened? Blizzard removed this playstyles from the game
So the ONLY time i managed to feed my Customization fetish...it all got removed from the game.

I dont know what my "customization fetish" is for sure.
I THINK its about playing "builds" that play incredibly different from the "usual stuff"

And is a fact my fetishes were quenched in Wrath...and in BfA they are not quenched.

So by the fact i cant seem to quench my fetish for "crazy builds" in current wow, i assume the customization is shit nowadays. It is at least for me!
For me...

Bro changing a major and your minors is enough customization to feel like you’re playing a diff class in some ways what’re you smoking

[nexellent]

Old talent trees, blizzard claimed the new talent system would offer more choice, but for most classes there is always a talent that is better than the other ones.

[bigbleach]

I give you a wall of text of possible builds...each one with their "persona" and different...and you use on me the "illusion" argument
First you should explain "why" my wall of text is an "illusion".
Then we could have a discussion.

But...you probably dont want to discuss with me...because im very annoying

Think about it. To play swords, you change around the talents that go for swords and put the ones in for daggers. Literally look at the first few you linked where this is the case. Its an extra step to play daggers or swords over retail. While there may have been a bigger difference between the 2 playstyles then to now, the game doesn't work the way it used to. I don't get the appeal of that. However, I will say I do prefer the old trees. I don't think they are tons better than what we have now. It feels better leveling, but leveling isn't where we spend most of our time. At max level, both feel about the same. That is the important thing. With the current system, you choose abilities and passives, most of the time they are larger than the formers difference... they may not be as viable in comparison to other CURRENT builds, but they variations of gameplay is there. Its if you care to min max or not. But when you are literally talking about a 10 point difference that equates to 5% crit and some other random passives because you changed weapons... I mean it really isn't as interesting as you guys make it out to be. Its cool for the fantasy, but I don't miss that aspect of the old trees. Allow me to say this again, I do prefer the old trees. I don't hate the new ones fully, especially now with there being a pvp tree. The thing with the old trees, you needed a different spec to literally do almost everything. You had a raid spec, you had a pvp spec, you had a solo/grinding spec, etc. Respeccing sucked. Most of the time we just didn't do it. So the spice of variety wasn't as bountiful... it was simply too expensive for us to constantly spend 50g to respec. And it would be 50g if you respec a lot. Whats the point otherwise? If they were to say, bring back wotlk/cata trees with a bit more polish on them, maybe extended slightly so you can do a tiny bit deeper into another tree, I'd be completely happy with that. I would be happy with the old trees, since gold is abundant now and the cost of respec is irrelevant. Either of those conditions and I would be content with a change back. However, if I were to have to take vanilla trees with pocket breaking respec costs and requirement to respec for everything to be fully efficient in it... no thanks. BC felt better due to gold being abundant. 50g was lint. I agree with you overall, just some things I don't. I'm thinking in terms of the time of the game as well. I've experienced all of it, so I have first hand experience, probably like yourself, of the entirety of system changes over the course of the games life. I just don't think the difference between the 2, at max level, where it counts, is really all that big

[arkanon]

Old talent trees, blizzard claimed the new talent system would offer more choice, but for most classes there is always a talent that is better than the other ones.

Are you suggesting this isnt the case for classic?

[Kyphael]

The old classic talent trees that were used up until Wrath.

[ellieg]

You focus on the "twice as often" component, while ignoring the fact that while lvling, you absolutely would NOT notice an increase from 5% crit to 10% crit. No player would notice this in any capacity other than smashing on a target dummy for 10 mins with 5%, and then smashing on a target dummy for 10 mins with 10% and saying "hey look! 0.5% more dps! wooo!"

But again, even if we ignore common sense and pretend that 5% crit is something you would notice, it takes 5 levels to obtain that, not 1. Im sorry, but i absolutely refuse to accept anyone noticing these extremely small changes while leveling. I have said numerous times that yes, at the time it did feel like progress when you got to press a button every level - but over time i started to realize how minuscule a 1% crit change really is, and the illusion started to fade.

What DID feel awesome was unlocking a new ability - especially first time round on a new class - it was extremely rewarding. And, to be fair, this still happened when they introduced new abilities to classes at endgame - it was awesome getting the new shiny! That is something missing now and i would like to think SL might fix that, but i highly doubt it - im sure they will just introduce another new bullshit grind system and introduce generic abilities again

- - - Updated - - -



A true "customization nerd" would appreciate how much more customization exists in retail compared to classic.

- - - Updated - - -



The irony here is that you described the BFA system, not the classic one.

BfA has:

- Talents
- Essences
- Traits
- PvP Talents
- Corruption
- Gear

All of which can be mixed and matched, allowing a substantially greater degree of customization over classic. The bolded part is extremely confusing, but if you genuinely like this type of thing, you should check out PoE or Wolcen, In particular PoE.

I'm telling you it's easy to "feel" those. You are focus on 5% increase instead of twice as often. As ret you get vengeance procs which makes a really loud sharp noise when it procs. Trust me, you notice hearing that twice as often. You notice the parties as well. Idc either way which system it is, but arguing that ppl cant feel things when they happen literally twice as often just makes you look pretty

[arkanon]

I'm telling you it's easy to "feel" those. You are focus on 5% increase instead of twice as often. As ret you get vengeance procs which makes a really loud sharp noise when it procs. Trust me, you notice hearing that twice as often. You notice the parties as well. Idc either way which system it is, but arguing that ppl cant feel things when they happen literally twice as often just makes you look pretty

Thank you for calling me pretty, however you are lying through your teeth. "twice is often" is meaningful when you are going from 25% to 50%, or 40% to 80%, but going from 5% to 10% is not at all noticeable while leveling.

[ellieg]

Thank you for calling me pretty, however you are lying through your teeth. "twice is often" is meaningful when you are going from 25% to 50%, or 40% to 80%, but going from 5% to 10% is not at all noticeable while leveling.

Let's say you get paid once a month. About 20 work days in a month. You get paid on one of them, or 5% of the days you work there. Now let's say I give you an extra check each month. Twice a month, or 10% of the days you work, if you will. Would you notice that?

[arkanon]

Let's say you get paid once a month. About 20 work days in a month. You get paid on one of them, or 5% of the days you work there. Now let's say I give you an extra check each month. Twice a month, or 10% of the days you work, if you will. Would you notice that?

Honestly, that is the worst analogy i have ever seen on this forum. What a convoluted mess.

The fact remains that instead of 95% of your hits being non-crits, now only 90% are non crits! The overwhelming majority of your attacks are still non-crits. If you had a 30% crit chance, just under 1/3 of attacks being non crits, and a talent allowed a certain ability to now have a 60% crit chance, THAT is noticeable.

Like i said, if you where dealing with larger numbers, doubling that percentage becomes FAR more noticeable. But when dealing with such tiny percentages, it is not noticeable, and this continues to ignore the fact we are talking a 1% increase, not a 5% increase.

[ellieg]

Honestly, that is the worst analogy i have ever seen on this forum. What a convoluted mess.

The fact remains that instead of 95% of your hits being non-crits, now only 90% are non crits!

Like i said, if you where dealing with larger numbers, doubling that percentage becomes FAR more noticeable. But when dealing with such tiny percentages, it is not noticeable, and this continues to ignore the fact we are talking a 1% increase, not a 5% increase.

Ok. You are honestly the biggest contrarian on this site lmao. Good luck. Dont break that wrist hand waving away every thing that doesnt agree with you.

If something happening twice as often isnt noticeable to you, I dont think we can continue.

[arkanon]

Ok. You are honestly the biggest contrarian on this site lmao. Good luck. Dont break that wrist hand waving away every thing that doesn't agree with you.

Im not waving anyone away, i am pointing out the gaping holes in your logic. Your analogy was absolutely terrible, and quite embarrassing. like i said, going from 95 out of every 100 strikes being non crits, to 90 out of every 100 strikes being non crits is not a noticeable difference. Would it show up on a dps meter over a long fight? Yes, it would, all other factors remaining the same. But to suggest you would notice it out in the world while questing is just not being honest.

I also find it very amusing that you think your opinion is the 'popular opinion' without anything to back that up. If you go through this thread, you will infact find numerous people saying EXACTLY the same thing as me - that a 1/2/3/4/5% increase in a stat is boring, and not impactful at all.

Ironically, this would make YOU the contrarian

[ellieg]

Im not waving anyone away, i am pointing out the gaping holes in your logic. Your analogy was absolutely terrible, and quite embarrassing. like i said, going from 95 out of every 100 strikes being non crits, to 90 out of every 100 strikes being non crits is not a noticeable difference. Would it show up on a dps meter over a long fight? Yes, it would, all other factors remaining the same. But to suggest you would notice it out in the world while questing is just not being honest.

I also find it very amusing that you think your opinion is the 'popular opinion' without anything to back that up. If you go through this thread, you will infact find numerous people saying EXACTLY the same thing as me - that a 1/2/3/4/5% increase in a stat is boring, and not impactful at all.

Ironically, this would make YOU the contrarian

Things happening twice as often is noticeable. Going from getting a crit every 20 strikes to getting a crit every 10 strikes, is definitely noticeable. Idk how you can think its not haha. How can you deny this?

[docterfreeze]

Legion-BfA talent trees should be separate from MoP-WoD. Legion-BfA have spec-specific talents which are mostly throughput increasing, AoE vs ST choices. MoP-WoD trees were class wide with a few exceptions and were mostly utility, sustain, mobility, and CC choices.

I like vanilla-wotlk and MoP-WoD trees equally. One for the finer customization and unique builds and the other for the more impactful choices.

Best solution would be to have both

[arkanon]

Things happening twice as often is noticeable. Going from getting a crit every 20 strikes to getting a crit every 10 strikes, is definitely noticeable. Idk how you can think its not haha. How can you deny this?

going from 1 crit out of 20 to 2 crits out of 20 is not.