WoW's Rent System (Or How Spells, Talents and Abilities Work Going Forward)

[Orby]

There's a lot I want to talk about here so excuse if this becomes a disjointed mess.

Since Legion and along with BfA new spells, talents, and abilities have become what I like to call 'expansion exclusives'. What do I mean by that?

Well in Legion with the artifact weapons and even in BfA with the Azerite armor and necklace, new spells are added for the players to use specially for that expansion, that by the time the expansion is over those spells and abilities are taken away again.

Now that might seem pretty straight forward, and to some there's nothing wrong with that and even I was fine with that at first but then I thought about it differently, that since WoD we really haven't received any new spells and abilities. Now it's understandable that Blizzard maybe saw that the longer WoW went on, the more spells, talents and abilities we were gathering it have became harder for them to manage and balance so I completely understand why they halted adding any more abilities and simplified classes to the current talent system for instance.

Now during Legion and BfA we worked to try and earn new spells and abilities only for them to not come with is, and a part of me feels pretty sad that in the end we are not gaining anything, in fact we lose more only to have it given back to us in a different form come the next expansion only to once again build up and earn it again. Its like being given a really nice reward for all your hard work and then in a years time having people come and take that back.

Spells and abilities today feel like a rent system for an expansion, nothing is there for you to keep, there's no progression for your character, because you are having it taken away. When you used to level up you'd get new spells and abilities and talents and they would carry forth from expansion to expansion with exception to some spells that would either get replaced or axed or nerfed but regardless you still left with what you previously had in your arsenal

But today you can't do that, you gather all these new abilities, new spells, and new power and you lose it all. I look at Legion (an expansion I actually loved) and I see many spells from my weapon that really made playing my class interesting and fun, then when BfA came along, I felt stripped down and naked, like Legion was a dream. If you leveled an alt through Legion now, its a dead void of no progression.

And with BfA we are doing this again, say what you want about the new passives on armor sets or the azerite power passives on your necklace you still learned them, and when the expansion ends were back to square one again.

This may just be me overlooking things, but how do you feel about the way spells, and abilities are handled today, do you like this expansion rent system of spells and abilities, or like me you feel we should go back to having more new spells and abilities carry over again like they used to? Would you prefer that in shadowlands we get some spells that carry over to the next expansion and beyond rather than just have it handed back by the end?

[Soon-TM]

These "rental powers" concept is really, REALLY crappy. I mean, I know they can't keep adding stuff forever, but wwas removing almost every artifact active skill THAT necessary? Especially after two absolutely massive prunings.

Yes, there are a few specs that got to keep their artifact active. The thing is that even then, it's almost unusable now. For example, who in his/her sane mind would spec Phoenix Flames knowing that you have to drop Flame On and its OP synergy with Blaster Master+Lucid Dreams essence?

[Maljinwo]

These "rental powers" concept is really, REALLY crappy. I mean, I know they can't keep adding stuff forever, but wwas removing almost every artifact active skill THAT necessary? Especially after two absolutely massive prunings.

Yes, there are a few specs that got to keep their artifact active. The thing is that even then, it's almost unusable now. For example, who in his/her sane mind would spec Phoenix Flames knowing that you have to drop Flame On and its OP synergy with Blaster Master+Lucid Dreams essence?

If Blaster Master would affect Phoenix Flames as well it could work I guess

[TheLucky1]

These "rental powers" concept is really, REALLY crappy. I mean, I know they can't keep adding stuff forever, but wwas removing almost every artifact active skill THAT necessary? Especially after two absolutely massive prunings.

Yes, there are a few specs that got to keep their artifact active. The thing is that even then, it's almost unusable now. For example, who in his/her sane mind would spec Phoenix Flames knowing that you have to drop Flame On and its OP synergy with Blaster Master+Lucid Dreams essence?

Tier sets are basically rental powers from tier to tier and apparently everyone liked those.

I think it is agreeable however that Legions "rental-powers" were awesome and mostly class focused while BfAs are a mess of mostly procs and generally suck.

I do like "rental-powers" for every expansion with a baseline construct for spec rotations that doesn't change much every expansion, this would keep the classes fresh every 2 years/every bigger patch without ability bloat.

[Raugnaut]

Tier sets are basically rental powers from tier to tier and apparently everyone liked those.

I think it is agreeable however that Legions "rental-powers" were awesome and mostly class focused while BfAs are a mess of mostly procs and generally suck.

I do like "rental-powers" for every expansion with a baseline construct for spec rotations that doesn't change much every expansion, this would keep the classes fresh every 2 years/every bigger patch without ability bloat.

Tier sets are a bit different - Not a single Tier set has EVER added an entire extra ability to the game. Generally tier sets tend to slightly alter rotations in one way or another - Lower CDs, more resources. Most of the time they are just flat +% damage. And there HAVE been times when a tier set bonus altered the rotation in such a way that it was later made baseline - A few talents we have now were previously tier set bonuses. Heck, the ability for dots to crit and benefit from haste were tier set bonuses originally!

So, tier sets lets blizzard experiment with small, minor changes to a class or spec without actually implementing them full time. If they are good, blizz makes them baseline. Not so good? Blizzard just scraps them for the tier, which is generally just 1/3rd or even 1/4th of an expansion.

But, Legion Artifact and BfA Azerite? Entire expansion in which they are part of the rotation more or less. And for MOST of those artifact abilities, Blizz made them a talent, so we got to keep a tiny tidbit of it.

But Azerite? I don't see any of that remaining going into Shadowlands.

Also, it does feel bad. I would just go back to WoD style - Instead of getting new abilities, you just got additional effects on your abilities. This would allow Blizz to add power to classes that can last till the end of the game without just scraping it each expansion. But eh.

[Orby]

Tier sets are basically rental powers from tier to tier and apparently everyone liked those.

I think it is agreeable however that Legions "rental-powers" were awesome and mostly class focused while BfAs are a mess of mostly procs and generally suck.

I do like "rental-powers" for every expansion with a baseline construct for spec rotations that doesn't change much every expansion, this would keep the classes fresh every 2 years/every bigger patch without ability bloat.

I am fine with rental powers for expansion as long as there is some give to it. BfA and Legion have had no 'give', but they have had far too much 'take'... actually for BfA its all take.

Take WotLK or Cataclysm, sure tier sets were gone by the time of the next expansion, but you kept new talents, new spells, new abilities going into Catac or MoP. Coming out of BfA what are we keeping in terms of spells, abilities or talents? Nothing. Thats what.

[Nadiru]

Blizzard has not yet learned that spellbook clutter is something they will have to actively manage, much in the same way they have to actively manage item squishes. This whole set of expansions from WoD to (hopefully) BFA is them figuring out that rent-a-spells are just awful. The unpruning actually gives me a lot of hope that they've learned that lesson.

[Rogue Karl]

I wouldn't mind it if we were just given the powers...

This whole grind to get the stats you used to get at level cap instantly is growing rather tiresome.

No blizzard I don't want to play your 8th take on scenarios just make another dungeon instead.

[TheLucky1]

I am fine with rental powers for expansion as long as there is some give to it. BfA and Legion have had no 'give', but they have had far too much 'take'... actually for BfA its all take.

Take WotLK or Cataclysm, sure tier sets were gone by the time of the next expansion, but you kept new talents, new spells, new abilities going into Catac or MoP. Coming out of BfA what are we keeping in terms of spells, abilities or talents? Nothing. Thats what.

Well we didn't really get anything class related in bfa except for some essences, that's my problem in the first place.

I like the idea of rental powers keeping your class fresh every major patch/every expansion, and underneath that the familiar rotation/talent structure, it's a neat compromise.
Thing is, bfa didn't give any cool new toys/rental powers in the first place, it's all just procs, increase stat x, get a shield every 30 seconds bla bla bla etc. etc. if it isn't a massive haste proc you won't even feel 90% of the stuff azerite/essences/corruption give you, it's all screen clutter lol.

Artifactweapons were cool in a way that they gave you class related passives/actives that would speed up and empower things tied to your class, there are maybe 1-2 essences that do that in bfa (most classes don't use because suboptimal), of course that feels like garbage.

[klaps_05]

The reason why the system was switched because after 10 years they found out its not sustainable - you cant keep adding shit every 2 years. And then bitch about balance too. How exactly do you balance every single spec between the respective roles and in all types of content simultaneously while also adding more and more complexity each year?

Having rental systems for expansion is good - case in point LEGION. The issue with BFA was that we only got 1 active ability (essences) and the rest is mostly passive.

Imagine this BFA:

1. You get to choose exactly which traits you want on Azerite pieces and the middle piece is as play-altering as Legiondaries.
2. Essences as they are.
3. Corruption currency and all on use (i.e. targetable and you activate it rather than procs).

Suddenly BFA is the best expansion ever right? And its fine if this system goes away, as long as the next is also as impactful AND as interactive.

Tldr: Blizzard has the right approach and the issue isnt with rental systems, its with the quality of the rental systems and their design.

[Briselody]

This whole set of expansions from WoD to (hopefully) BFA is them figuring out that rent-a-spells are just awful. The unpruning actually gives me a lot of hope that they've learned that lesson.

Have you seen Covenants? They've learned nothing.

[Nadiru]

Have you seen Covenants? They've learned nothing.

From what we've seen, Covenants and Soulbinds are incredibly mild compared to Artifacts and even Azerite Armor. They're still there but they don't appear to be defining the class as in expansions past.

[Ielenia]

There's a lot I want to talk about here so excuse if this becomes a disjointed mess.

Since Legion and along with BfA new spells, talents, and abilities have become what I like to call 'expansion exclusives'. What do I mean by that?

Well in Legion with the artifact weapons and even in BfA with the Azerite armor and necklace, new spells are added for the players to use specially for that expansion, that by the time the expansion is over those spells and abilities are taken away again.

Not completely true. It started with WoD, with the "Draenor Perks" that gave you extra things instead of new spells. For example: in MoP, monks had 4 chi points, but one of the Draenor Perks for WW monks increased the number to 5 points. Second, Legion continued and expanded on that, giving us actual active abilities on our artifacts along with new passives.

The difference, however, is that WoD's "Draenor perks" and many of Legion's artifact abilities and passives were rolled into our classes, albeit in a slightly weaker form. The demon hunters kept their +max demonic fury and the ability to rip soul fragments from stunned enemies with Chaos Nova. Arms warriors can still pick a talent that lets their Colossus Smash hit an area around them, like the Artifact Ability.

Whereas none (as far as I know) of all the Azerite perks and essences are carrying through to Shadowlands. And judging by how Shadowlands' Covenant abilities look, it doesn't seem THOSE will carry on to the next expansion, either.

[Twdft]

What exactly do you want, a new abilty every expansion?

Which leads to, like, 5 resource builders and 4 resource spenders and 3 dots and 4 AE abilities per class over the years.

[Jikate-Stormrage]

The reason why the system was switched because after 10 years they found out its not sustainable - you cant keep adding shit every 2 years. And then bitch about balance too. How exactly do you balance every single spec between the respective roles and in all types of content simultaneously while also adding more and more complexity each year?

Having rental systems for expansion is good - case in point LEGION. The issue with BFA was that we only got 1 active ability (essences) and the rest is mostly passive.

Imagine this BFA:

1. You get to choose exactly which traits you want on Azerite pieces and the middle piece is as play-altering as Legiondaries.
2. Essences as they are.
3. Corruption currency and all on use (i.e. targetable and you activate it rather than procs).

Suddenly BFA is the best expansion ever right? And its fine if this system goes away, as long as the next is also as impactful AND as interactive.

Tldr: Blizzard has the right approach and the issue isnt with rental systems, its with the quality of the rental systems and their design.

I agree strongly with this guys statements (even though I have stepped away from WoW atm).

I will however take it a step further:

1) if the baseline class/spec feel horrible, then don’t waste time on stacking systems

2) why waste time on stacking systems when there are still numerous talents that are basically “never use this talent ever”?

If they went back to “gear is gear” and left it at that for an expansion, instead putting effort into building classes/specs around their proper niches (where every talent is “the best” in its own situation); then I would regain confidence moving forward that they could maybe start working towards “rental systems”.

Lacking that, I just can’t keep signing onto a cacophony of design directions that just plain feel bad.

There should never be a talent option labeled as “never take this one”. Each talent should be meaningful and useful in some form of content and be fun.

Also, bring rng power gains back into line. No prob should shoot you from dead last up to first place (tripling your dps output) without the player having SOME input.

[Nerovar]

They probably should have gone for more horizontal progression (similar to what MMOs like ESO have) and more talent options instead of new abilities that are added on top every expansion. Pruning and redesigning classes every expansion only to complement them with bland, non-class specific rental powers seems like a really inefficient and unsatisfying approach to character progression. You know that they've really shot themselves in the foot when players can't recognize their characters in an RPG because they've changed the specs/classes so much.

But the damage is done and they can't really go back from here on.

[Unholyground]

They probably should have gone for more horizontal progression (similar to what MMOs like ESO have) and more talent options instead of new abilities that are added on top every expansion. Pruning and redesigning classes every expansion only to complement them with bland, non-class specific rental powers seems like a really inefficient and unsatisfying approach to character progression. You know that they've really shot themselves in the foot when players can't recognize their characters in an RPG because they've changed the specs/classes so much.

But the damage is done and they can't really go back from here on.

Redoing specs is fine and necessary to keep the classes from stagnating, giving us cool shit and taking it away each expansion feels bad and will continue to feel bad until they find a more permanent character progression outside of talents that actually stay with you.

[Nerovar]

Redoing specs is fine and necessary to keep the classes from stagnating, giving us cool shit and taking it away each expansion feels bad and will continue to feel bad until they find a more permanent character progression outside of talents that actually stay with you.

I'm talking about Legion-styled reworks. They took away much more than just a few cool abilities but were aimed at completely rewriting the way some specs work. They also paved the way for the very thing you're criticizing. Rental powers only function on top of the foundation of Legion class reworks because they stripped the classes down to a state in which you can then add tons of stuff back into the mix. Imagine corruption, essences and azerite power on top of pre-Legion specs. That simply wouldn't work. Therefor you can't criticize rental powers without adressing the underlying class changes that made them possible in the first place.

We need to go back to classes that get honed with every expansion instead of being moulded into something completely different every few years.

[Big Thanks]

In shadowlands we have this...and im really excited for it.

[Unholyground]

I'm talking about Legion-styled reworks. They took away much more than just a few cool abilities but were aimed at completely rewriting the way some specs work. They also paved the way for the very thing you're criticizing. Rental powers only function on top of the foundation of Legion class reworks because they stripped the classes down to a state in which you can then add tons of stuff back into the mix. Imagine corruption, essences and azerite power on top of pre-Legion specs. That simply wouldn't work. Therefor you can't criticize rental powers without adressing the underlying class changes that made them possible in the first place.

We need to go back to classes that get honed with every expansion instead of being moulded into something completely different every few years.

Yes I agree with you but WoW is now more of a mobile game than a traditional MMO based on how their rewards system is now set up and we know how Blizzard wants to go that route with all their franchises. I don't plan on playing WoW again, or any Blizzard game that I have to pay for until they fix their shit which I have no faith in at this point so I have moved onto better things.