Covenants will ruin Shadowlands.

[FlubberPuddy]

I will pick the coolest armor. The abilities they have is 1 attack comparing that to azerite is like saying lfr and mythic is the same

Very true. And with how different the abilities (looking at Mage and even DK examples), your choice is always going to be strong in one area but weak in others.

There's no way the Kyrian Mage abilities will be better for AoE over the Necrobros/Ardenweald ones.

Also for best Defensive ability, Venthyr wins from what we've seen for Mages and DK.

But because each of those abilities (a single ability) are tied to a specific covenant and each has such a narrow focus there is no way to min-max.

I already brought up how the Venthyr defensive ability doesn't coincide with the increased dmg soulbind from Venthyr.

It doesn't look designed to min-max and this looks like people equating as if Azerite passives are active abilities. They are not at all.

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Responding to no one in particular I will say:


It doesn't matter if its only a 1% diff or not, the conversation and any arguments should be centered around why an aesthetic choice has any sort of power diff and the principle of it.

Covenants are most likely going to end up like racials, power should never be tied to aesthetic. And Blizzard choosing that road or complete homogenization is their fault and theirs alone, they could very easily make them covenants feel unique by deepening how much visuals they bring i.e spell effects/skins.

Its dumb and we all know its coming.

I mean power has always been tied to aesthetic since wow's inception. Better looking gear typically (ie for avg joe, not min-maxers) was the strongest. Think Tier Sets. Weapons. Legendaries.

All looked good AND brought a lot of power.

And your racial example doesn't work. Racials are very broad perks. Each ability is so focused. A Troll's Berserking can be good in a ST or AoE or PvP situation. Kyrian Mage ability is best at ST, but fails for AoE compared to Contagion Bolt for example.

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Seems like Everyone will pick the covenant who will give the most dps anyway and change the covenant will be a pain in the ass, but we can't say much without alpha

Nope. Most people don't even raid above LFR or do above queueable dungeons. This thread has a lot of hardcore player posts when most people ("seems like everyone") are going to pick what they think has the prettiest/coolest things.

[Seranthor]

The idea of constructive criticism is dead on this forum. Critical thinking is a lost art and if you try to exercise even a modicum of pragmatic musing, you'll be derided as a "Blizzard white knight." Very few people on this forum seem to want to discuss anything. Everything is kneejerk reactionary. "Everything sucks," is seemingly the only thing people agree on but the solution will be different from player to player. The only consistency is occasionally two players will share a slightly similar idea about how the game ~should~ be developed and that small little dopamine rush people get when they're quoted and somebody agrees with their very original opinion is what keeps this place going.

Meh. I think I'm getting as bitter and cynical as the people I often criticize.

I couldn't have said it better... I dont think I am... I KNOW I've crossed over to the Cynical side.

[Reivur]

This. I'll pick the one with the best aesthetic rewards/mounts/covenant hall.

0.001% of the playerbase should be worried about the DPS difference between covenants, and from the mage examples it seems like it isn't a matter of best or worst so much as a choice in situational specialization.



Kyrian is very obviously the strongest option here for ST (It will probably be nerfed some), but it is going to be completely destroyed by Necrolord and Night Fae in any AoE encounter or in mythic+. Venthyr is going to be extremely strong against melee in PvP and very specific bosses, but picking Kyrian gives you very strong ST burst. If Night Fae can be channeled while continuing to cast regular spells, that is nothing to scoff at.

I mean those options have always spooked me because it tells me nothing has been learned. Just like ST talents lined up with AoE talents is absurd at the very least those can be swapped at inns. This they've pretty much said its an investment. I have a hard time (on paper at least) thinking Arcane Mage would want to trade Radiant Spark for anything, even factoring in the AoE capabilities on the other skills. It screams "Stack Arcane Blast to 4 and then cast Radiant Spark". It even has a healthy 30 second cd that gives you time to dump the stacks twice (or once between pulls) and get back to ramping. I get it, the AoE skills would still perform better than ST skills, but try to convince Shamans to give up 3x Igneous Potential for 1x Tectonic Thunder to the opposite. Anytime you're in a situation where Contagion Bolt (Or Earthquake in today's standards) isn't worth casting you end up feeling wasteful. At least Shifting Power won't seemingly have that problem with the haste ramp.

In an ideal world for me all four abilities would be kept and each Covenant would have their own graphical skin of them instead, but oh well.

[MyndZero]

Uhh the ability you gain depends on your spec.

Yeah but they aren't the same abilities between covenants though, so the one you end up with may have a crap tank ability whereas on of the other covenants could have a really good one. I think they should just give them all the same abilities but just make them different spell effect colours to match the covenant.

[Sweetdeal]

I just stopped Min/Max since Raiding is not worth at all anymore for me personally, I now fully focused on M+ and unless you want push maxed out, you dont need full max DPS.

Dunno, M+ gives the same gear like Raiding (Heroic + Mythic in Weekly Chest you can now choose from a List with SL), except a Trinket and some Raid Specific Traits you won't need outside the Raid. You get way less loot in Raids etc. dunno why raiding exist at all atm. (Not to Mention you have to play with up to 9 other people that hopefully not fail)

[Romanz]

very much looking forward to covenants. Cosmetics are forever, and not an infinite grind, stuff you get when you want it, im looking forward to restoring a sanctum, filing a weekly cap satisfyingly then moving on to other activities.

[Protean]

I highly doubt that a covenant will affect your total dps by 20%. If you mean the difference between covenant abilities will be 20%, then sure. But if your dps comes down to that small a difference then I would suggest you should just play better to make up for it. Realistically, the difference between covenant abilities' dps will be made up for with a single missed GCD or well-timed proc. Not worth worrying about. The fun from picking your favourite covenant? That's worth a lot more.

Didn't people say this exact same thing about azerite and later corruption, when concerned min/max'ers complained that the system looked like shit?

How many times must we be burned before we're allowed to avoid the fire?

[AlmightyGerkin]

Unless they've done a complete 180 on Covenant design since the reveal(lol nope). Then they will be the Azerite of Shadowlands.

We all know Blizzard is absolutely awful at balancing. Locking player power behind a choice that should be for cosmetic and story purposes is absolutely moronic.

There will be a BEST Covenant ability for your spec/class. It will be the best by a long margin. There will also be an absolute worst.

Then - nerfs and buffs will happen and the pendulum will swing again. But Blizzard has already said they're going to make it extremely hard to switch Covenants.

Why can't these morons open their eyes?

See you have played shadowlands entirely… oh wait you haven’t at all and your entire topic is based on speculation. Wait till beta alpha w/e to make a more accurate opinion. If not stop being hysterical. No fan of blizzard but none of us know how exactly covenants will impact us.

[Nerovar]

you literally haven't even seen the full system in-game yet and are jumping to conclusions/making irrational assumptions lmao

Well, I can only talk about the system as Blizzard presented it to us. It's irrational to assume that they'll make meaningful, sweeping changes to the system if everyone just goes around saying "you know what? It's pre-Alpha. We can't have an opinion on this" especially when taking their past record into consideration.

The things we've seen about the covenant system is the information Blizzard wanted us to have about the system. If that cherry picked information still suffers from very obvious flaws and nobody points them out because "duhhh it's akschually pre alpha dude", why should I assume that it's magically going to improve? They sure as hell didn't improve Azerite armor.

[Revamp Man]

Actually no, they havent said it will be extremly hard, it will be extremly time consuming since you will start all over and need to unlock everything again, so wont be something you do after the raid becouse another covenants abilities is better for mythic + dungeons.

I mean the truth of it is in terms of power you don’t really lose much

I mean according to blizzard so far once we unlock a soul bind they are there permanently

We have no idea about any other power increases within the system itself


So once you swap to a different covenant you already have as far as we can tell off the power

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Well, I can only talk about the system as Blizzard presented it to us. It's irrational to assume that they'll make meaningful, sweeping changes to the system if everyone just goes around saying "you know what? It's pre-Alpha. We can't have an opinion on this" especially when taking their past record into consideration.

The things we've seen about the covenant system is the information Blizzard wanted us to have about the system. If that cherry picked information still suffers from very obvious flaws and nobody points them out because "duhhh it's akschually pre alpha dude", why should I assume that it's magically going to improve? They sure as hell didn't improve Azerite armor.

So the flaw is that pretty much like every other thing in accordance with player power in this game the choices are not 100% the same and balanced the same oh my god that’s so terrible that a Cleve ability may or may not do more damage than a single target ability

[Nerovar]

So the flaw is that pretty much like every other thing in accordance with player power in this game the choices are not 100% the same and balanced the same oh my god that’s so terrible that a Cleve ability may or may not do more damage than a single target ability

The thing you described is not terrible in and of itself. But that's because it's a made up scenario that has very little to do with what we've actually seen so far in terms of covenant abilities. This is more like: one ability is a single target dot and the other one is an 8 second perma-deathgrip and you have to weigh the power of these abilities against the cosmetics you might want from another covenant while you have unnecessary barriers for switching between the abilities.

This is not a balancing issue. The devil is not in the details here. It's just very flawed at a conceptual level.

[huth]

The thing you described is not terrible in and of itself. But that's because it's a made up scenario that has very little to do with what we've actually seen so in terms of covenant abilities. This is more like: one ability is a single target dot and the other one is an 8 second perma-deathgrip and you have to weigh the power of these abilities against the cosmetics you might want from another covenant while you have unnecessary barriers for switching between the abilities.

And the soulbinds you get from the Covenant, which we still don't know much about.

[Frontenac]

I don't understand all this fixation on one covenant ability, considering the already considerable array of abilities we already have at our disposition. As if it could make or break a class on its own. Also, covenants will have other features influencing gameplay, like the soulbinds, which will bring their own abilities or talents. If you take Theotar, some powers seem to favor dps, while the tier 5 is more defensive and the conduit ability favors healers. Therefore, maybe a covenant ability may be better for one class or spec, but maybe another covenant will provide the better soulbinds. And a soulbind can provide the BiS talent for that spec in yet another covenant while its other talents are lackluster.

Of course, minmaxers and number crunchers will decide what covenant is the best for each spec. People will have to choose their covenant based on minmaxing or roleplay/aesthetics. If you choose RP, you may not get the "best" covenant for you spec. But if you choose RP, you don't really care about that, do you? On the other hand, those who choose minmaxing will have to sacrifice RP/aesthetics. Which they do not seem ready to do. Well, you know what they say about having cake or eating it...

Personally, I rather like the concept of Covenants. They are a way to put some variety in the storyline. WoW is also a roleplaying game. It is normal that they put in some features in an expansion to help that.

[Sharby]

Very true. And with how different the abilities (looking at Mage and even DK examples), your choice is always going to be strong in one area but weak in others.

There's no way the Kyrian Mage abilities will be better for AoE over the Necrobros/Ardenweald ones.

Also for best Defensive ability, Venthyr wins from what we've seen for Mages and DK.

But because each of those abilities (a single ability) are tied to a specific covenant and each has such a narrow focus there is no way to min-max.

I already brought up how the Venthyr defensive ability doesn't coincide with the increased dmg soulbind from Venthyr.

It doesn't look designed to min-max and this looks like people equating as if Azerite passives are active abilities. They are not at all.

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I mean power has always been tied to aesthetic since wow's inception. Better looking gear typically (ie for avg joe, not min-maxers) was the strongest. Think Tier Sets. Weapons. Legendaries.

All looked good AND brought a lot of power.

And your racial example doesn't work. Racials are very broad perks. Each ability is so focused. A Troll's Berserking can be good in a ST or AoE or PvP situation. Kyrian Mage ability is best at ST, but fails for AoE compared to Contagion Bolt for example.
.

Just because that's how its always been doesn't mean its okay. And my racial analogy still holds up because it is still power differences based on visual choice. Also gear isn't comparable because transmog exists not to mention gear looking 'better' is subjective.

If you don't like the way your gear looks you can just transmog with a minimal cost while still retaining the power of said gear. You can't do this with racials nor covenants, if the Venthyr(as an example I dont know what any of them do) ability is superior to the other ones, even if by < 6%, it still shouldn't be a thing.


If some abilities are good on ST but bad for aoe it makes the system even worse, as switching is a pain in the ass. There is no good argument to be made for this. And the easy solution is to just make all of the covenants provide the same abilities, but make them unique by increasing the depth of the visual effects for each one, and expanding the transmog they give.

[FlubberPuddy]

Just because that's how its always been doesn't mean its okay. And my racial analogy still holds up because it is still power differences based on visual choice. Also gear isn't comparable because transmog exists not to mention gear looking 'better' is subjective.

If you don't like the way your gear looks you can just transmog with a minimal cost while still retaining the power of said gear. You can't do this with racials nor covenants, if the Venthyr(as an example I dont know what any of them do) ability is superior to the other ones, even if by < 6%, it still shouldn't be a thing.


If some abilities are good on ST but bad for aoe it makes the system even worse, as switching is a pain in the ass. There is no good argument to be made for this. And the easy solution is to just make all of the covenants provide the same abilities, but make them unique by increasing the depth of the visual effects for each one, and expanding the transmog they give.

Your racial analogy doesn't work. Racials are not even a "make it or break it" type deal. Many non min-max race/class combos clear the content within the game.

You may be able to tmog gear, but that doesn't take away that the best visuals go to gear at the highest difficulty (Rated PvP gear/Mythic Gear) tiers, which incidentally also makes them the most powerful (ilvl wise).

And on your last paragraph, switching is a pain in the ass precisely because they want players to make a commitment. The abilities you're gaining from the covenants aren't meant to be "the game changer abilities", they're just supposed to be another unique identifier along with the other goodies you get from committing to the covenants. Especially since they want you to invest in the covenants.

If you're a min-maxer then you're going to min-max no matter what. You're going to take that 1% DPS increase from whatever combination gives it to you, but Blizzard will never balance the game around that mentality. In fact, as we've seen with corruption gear, they will even hotfix nerfs in to ensure players don't min-max by doing crap like using a ilvl 415 blue with tier 3 infinite stars corruption over a 465 with tier 1 IS or w/e.

And if you don't know what any of the covenant abilities do then just look at post 252 in this thread. It's very clear the Venthyr ability is defensive in nature, yet it includes soulbinds that give 5% crit. Hmm, isn't that worthless? You have a non-dps ability and a dps-focused soulbind from the same covenant. Opposite bonuses working against each other. Why? Because as said earlier, these abilities are not supposed to be some crazy core abilities. They are also one, single, ability you get to include within your plethora of class abilities. They are not "I win" buttons, but people are attempting to treat them as so.

[Sharby]

Your racial analogy doesn't work. Racials are not even a "make it or break it" type deal. Many non min-max race/class combos clear the content within the game.

You may be able to tmog gear, but that doesn't take away that the best visuals go to gear at the highest difficulty (Rated PvP gear/Mythic Gear) tiers, which incidentally also makes them the most powerful (ilvl wise).

And on your last paragraph, switching is a pain in the ass precisely because they want players to make a commitment. The abilities you're gaining from the covenants aren't meant to be "the game changer abilities", they're just supposed to be another unique identifier along with the other goodies you get from committing to the covenants. Especially since they want you to invest in the covenants.

If you're a min-maxer then you're going to min-max no matter what. You're going to take that 1% DPS increase from whatever combination gives it to you, but Blizzard will never balance the game around that mentality. In fact, as we've seen with corruption gear, they will even hotfix nerfs in to ensure players don't min-max by doing crap like using a ilvl 415 blue with tier 3 infinite stars corruption over a 465 with tier 1 IS or w/e.

And if you don't know what any of the covenant abilities do then just look at post 252 in this thread. It's very clear the Venthyr ability is defensive in nature, yet it includes soulbinds that give 5% crit. Hmm, isn't that worthless? You have a non-dps ability and a dps-focused soulbind from the same covenant. Opposite bonuses working against each other. Why? Because as said earlier, these abilities are not supposed to be some crazy core abilities. They are also one, single, ability you get to include within your plethora of class abilities. They are not "I win" buttons, but people are attempting to treat them as so.

Never once stated anything was make or break. But I did say in my original post that it doesn't matter how much or how little an advantage racials/covenants give, by virtue they shouldn't give any at all.

I could do raid bosses without a ring equipped, in Legion I could do the same with shit legendaries. No one ever said it was a necessity, and I've seen this same misunderstanding of the argument at hand since Legion. And it has never been an accurate counterpoint.

I'll reiterate my bottom-line just in case it wasn't clear:

When it comes to a purely visual choice such as a race or covenant, they should all be exactly the same performance-wise, but be made unique by
deepening their visuals. It makes zero sense to have these advantages to begin with and no matter how much you underrate it, it doesn't change the fact that these advantages exist and aren't warranted nor contribute anything positive to the game.

The idea that there needs to be an imbalance to be 'special' is wrong, the solution is there. It wouldn't take away anything from the races nor covenants if it was put into place.

Blizzard continuing to push this imbalance undermines their message of 'choose your own adventure.'

[Revamp Man]

The thing you described is not terrible in and of itself. But that's because it's a made up scenario that has very little to do with what we've actually seen so far in terms of covenant abilities. This is more like: one ability is a single target dot and the other one is an 8 second perma-deathgrip and you have to weigh the power of these abilities against the cosmetics you might want from another covenant while you have unnecessary barriers for switching between the abilities.

This is not a balancing issue. The devil is not in the details here. It's just very flawed at a conceptual level.

OK so as far as we know swapping a covenant on the base level in terms of player power is as simple as swapping professions

I want you to remember that blizzard told us and we have seen through the demo at BlizzCon that you gain your class ability and the general ability by joining the covenant

The only thing that you have to work towards as far as we know in terms of the covenants are the cosmetic rewards and unlocking new soulbinds

From the system that was shown to us through the sole bind interface and what was told to us once we unlock one we keep it and then we use anima to empower it

We do not in anyway lose access to a class ability by swapping covenants if for example I have placed in a ton of time and work to fully explore all four of the covenants on one character and decide I need to switch for a certain boss on progress then all I would lose is access to the cosmetic effects

That situation is what we can guess will happen due to the fact that as the system was presented to us that is how it works

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And the soulbinds you get from the Covenant, which we still don't know much about.

Correct me if I’m wrong but we were told that you could swap them around much like talents so they are essentially a deeper version of the essence system and again correct me if I’m wrong but we were told once we unlock them we keep them

So the only thing that we really would need to swap covenants around four would be the class abilities which we do not have to place any extra work into the covenant to have as once you join you get it

As far as we know the only thing we lose win swapping covenants are the visuals so personally until we actually see the system I see no reason to run around like screaming children saying that daddy blizzard is being unfair

[Stormspellz]

Except there is no way that will happen. Most likely differences will be less than 5%. If you want to get your panties in a wad because your icy-veins copy build isn't pretty enough for you, that's on you.

Make a choice.

looks at corruption....ya 5% at best. I got a bridge to sell you.

[FlubberPuddy]

When it comes to a purely visual choice such as a race or covenant, they should all be exactly the same performance-wise, but be made unique by deepening their visuals. It makes zero sense to have these advantages to begin with and no matter how much you underrate it, it doesn't change the fact that these advantages exist and aren't warranted nor contribute anything positive to the game.

The idea that there needs to be an imbalance to be 'special' is wrong, the solution is there. It wouldn't take away anything from the races nor covenants if it was put into place.

Blizzard continuing to push this imbalance undermines their message of 'choose your own adventure.'

Then you're arguing for a situation where it would be boring. "Imbalances to be special" is the foundation of interesting choices. Take Class differences for example, they provide different avenues in experiencing the gameplay and because of this difference there is variety.

And Race and Covenants are not "purely visual choices" this is why so much of your argument is wrong. There's a bit of gameplay that comes into play with them. But the "a bit" is the key.

Just as you say you can take a ring off (which would provide even more of a performance downgrade than simply being another race) and complete content. Then what is it about a lesser performance choice (race change) that gets you so riled up if you'd be fine with taking off a ring and still completing content?

See you're arguing for the sake of arguing. At the end of the day you can pick the covenant you wish and not give a shit about what ability comes with it if you value the aesthetics so much more. But you don't, that's the matter. That's the matter with everyone complaining how it sucks in this thread.

You all want to basically get everything. The restrictions are what make it interesting. Having it all or having them be all the same abilities just different visuals would actually be much more boring to people.

The "conundrum" is basically this: You have to make a priority choice - 1 of 4 unique abilities or 1 of 4 unique covenants. I find that fair. Because the screechers complaining about it sound like the same people who think you have to be a specific dps class like a rogue or DH in order to complete +15 keys in time.

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looks at corruption....ya 5% at best. I got a bridge to sell you.

Please tell me how which of the 4 Mage abilities is absolute best and the 3 others are absolute trash.

[Sharby]

Then you're arguing for a situation where it would be boring. "Imbalances to be special" is the foundation of interesting choices. Take Class differences for example, they provide different avenues in experiencing the gameplay and because of this difference there is variety.

And Race and Covenants are not "purely visual choices" this is why so much of your argument is wrong. There's a bit of gameplay that comes into play with them. But the "a bit" is the key.

Just as you say you can take a ring off (which would provide even more of a performance downgrade than simply being another race) and complete content. Then what is it about a lesser performance choice (race change) that gets you so riled up if you'd be fine with taking off a ring and still completing content?

See you're arguing for the sake of arguing. At the end of the day you can pick the covenant you wish and not give a shit about what ability comes with it if you value the aesthetics so much more. But you don't, that's the matter. That's the matter with everyone complaining how it sucks in this thread.

You all want to basically get everything. The restrictions are what make it interesting. Having it all or having them be all the same abilities just different visuals would actually be much more boring to people.

The "conundrum" is basically this: You have to make a priority choice - 1 of 4 unique abilities or 1 of 4 unique covenants. I find that fair. Because the screechers complaining about it sound like the same people who think you have to be a specific dps class like a rogue or DH in order to complete +15 keys in time.

Let me start off by saying I find the bolded to be incredibly inaccurate and flat out incorrect. Classes are not comparable to races and covenants because they are picked based on how fun they play and how effective they are. They are purely gameplay, and when it comes to pure gameplay achieving perfect balance is impossible, but it still can be helped by ways of not giving certain classes XYZ that pushes them too far over the others.

It isn't the same as races and covenants because there is no permanent solution to making all classes equal in performance, but there is one for races and covenants. I still have yet to be shown why a visual choice should have good and bad gameplay consequences.


You are supposed to pick a race and covenant based on what is more appealing to you aesthetically, that's how they were marketed and that's how they should be. Having any sort of performance advantage, regardless of how minimal it might seem, goes against it and will compel some players to pick whats best. You can say that its only a tiny fraction of the larger playerbase but there still isn't a way to deny that these differences don't have to exist.


You don't know me so don't presume to imply that I'm a 'screecher', I've never race changed for a racial benefit and I won't ever sacrifice my personal enjoyment for a gameplay advantage. But what I do personally has nothing to do with my point, and you still have yet to justify why it needs to exist except for some weird idea that its fun because its imbalanced.

If there is ever a point where someone feels they picked the wrong covenant because of how its affecting performance, then the system is bad and needs to be changed. That entire possibility can be avoided without making covenants seem bland. Shadowlands isn't going to be empty gameplay -wise just because they're all equal. And covenants aren't exciting because of the possibility of them being imbalanced. They're exciting because the player gets to paint their Shadowlands canvas with a choice of four drastically different colors.

Some very easy ways to still make covenant choices unique:

Spell skins
Mounts
More armor
Visual effects on the active
Titles
Unique perks such as the Zuldazar benefits where you get shit like the gronk totems.
Random events that spawn such as the feral worgen for balance druids or the elementals for shamans during Legion
Covenant specific npc dialogue such as what Druids got in Darkheart Thicket during Legion



And probably a lot more too. The above are way more meaningful and a vastly superior avenue to making covenants feel like a reflection of the player's tastes. Without having any interference on the integrity of the gameplay.


As for your last point, bringing up necessity as a counter-argument is still asinine, straight-up. People are complaining about the state of class balance in M+ not because you have to have certain classes to clear content, but because of how much easier and more efficient it is to have certain classes due to their lack of weaknesses compared to others. The boost in efficiency greatly increases one's chance of success which means one can go higher, faster, achieve more, and reap greater rewards in a shorter amount of time than one who plays a class that simply has too many drawbacks.


This isn't a feeling based problem either, and chocking it up to people being babies with no evidence is wrong. There are plenty of statistic sites where you can research that prove that there is in fact, an imbalance.



EDIT:


I suppose I should make it clear that I'm not hating on ShL or covenants as a system, quite the contrary. I think they are wonderful additions to the game that have the potential to contribute a lot of good shit to WoW. I rarely ever read past the front page of threads, so idk what people have been saying in this.

That being said, the problems I outlined are made immediately clear even with little information, and I would rather see them avoided before the expansion's release.