What can the Horde do to make amends?

[Highelf]

Just crawl back to their huts and stay there. They only make things worse and The Alliance doesn't need them to save the day anyways.... again.

"But it's a different horde now..."

[Unholyground]

But this isn't a roleplaying forum. I'm not roleplaying. How are the mods supposed to distinguish when you're joking and when you're being serious

Because Orcs clearly do not exist, and I am clearly not an Orc IRL and you are talking about a subject based within a fantasy game that we all play....

[Unholyground]

Still a bit WeirdChamp though isn't it

Not really when you are high as shit.

[Syegfryed]

And it was all going fine until the Orcs started working for the Legion

its not like the Draenei brought the legion to then

[allawyn]

1. While the horde civilian population might not be to blame the army very much so is.

2. You don’t need any modern morals wow has firmly laid out that these kind of things are wrong based on is own mortality.

3.the people who burned the tree did get off Scott free if they survived the war it wasn’t sylvanas firing the catapults nor was it her stoking the fires with shamanistic magics of her murdering civ’s in other places. Sylvanas gave the orders but the horde soldiers are just as much to blame.

1) I was referring to the posters who want "the horde" punished. But blaming just "the army" is also debatable. If you want to apply modern morality to it, the average German soldier was no less responsible for the holocaust than the average Horde soldier. Now there are scenes in Orgrimmar of Sylvanas loyalist being arrested. You could argue for scenes of those people being punished. But otherwise it is no better than rounding up German soldiers after to the war and executing them or something.

2) The morality that WOW has laid out is mostly a poorly writen and hypocritical version of modern morality. I mean, they even have a "war crimes" trial. And if the Alliance has the right to kill Orcs or forsaken for pure racist revenge, the how do you deny Sylvanas the same right? I presume the "its own morality" isn't being used to say "a morality where the Horde is evil and the Alliance can do what they want".

3) Sylvanas is not "the Horde", except by the same racist guild by association I mentioned above. Also, sylvanas loosing her power and becoming the enemy of the Horde is not "Scott free". If may not be the punishment she deserved, but "Scott free" would be her remaining as Warchief and going on as before.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I'd say the Horde is probably better off with a Democratic Council than a Warchief. Besides, no one seems to want to be one after Sylvanas left

[Headayke]

Nothing. The separate factions are supposed to mean something, not just color palette swap. Horde should be abrasive leaders forced to work together to overcome. Alliance should be a true coalition of leaders, led to deal with changing threats. They will constantly be on the brink of war and never achieve peace between them otherwise what is the point

[Varodoc]

Sometimes I wonder how Blizzard writers would react if they ever read stuff like "Burning of Teldrassil was not evil" or "Genocide of the draenei was the draenei's fault". They'd probably be laughing their ass off at how someone could possibly misunderstand their story so much.

[Deathrange]

And it was all going fine until the Orcs started working for the Legion

Who was the one who brought the Legion to their homeworld?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

1) I was referring to the posters who want "the horde" punished. But blaming just "the army" is also debatable. If you want to apply modern morality to it, the average German soldier was no less responsible for the holocaust than the average Horde soldier. Now there are scenes in Orgrimmar of Sylvanas loyalist being arrested. You could argue for scenes of those people being punished. But otherwise it is no better than rounding up German soldiers after to the war and executing them or something.

2) The morality that WOW has laid out is mostly a poorly writen and hypocritical version of modern morality. I mean, they even have a "war crimes" trial. And if the Alliance has the right to kill Orcs or forsaken for pure racist revenge, the how do you deny Sylvanas the same right? I presume the "its own morality" isn't being used to say "a morality where the Horde is evil and the Alliance can do what they want".

3) Sylvanas is not "the Horde", except by the same racist guild by association I mentioned above. Also, sylvanas loosing her power and becoming the enemy of the Horde is not "Scott free". If may not be the punishment she deserved, but "Scott free" would be her remaining as Warchief and going on as before.

1. The majority of the horde war forces stood with sylvanas rather that meant going along with the burning of the tree murdering civ’s in settlements that did nothing to them ect. This isn’t the same as punishing a random German soldier who was on the front line this is the majority saying they were “just following orders” as they cheered as the tree burned or stuck civs to Walls with spears.

The horde as a whole shouldn’t be blamed there are as dole stood against her actions and rebelled but the majority are just as guilty as any sylvanas loyalist.

2. The morality of wow might be poorly written isn’t a one sided alliance thing. The Orcs know these kinds of things are wrong, see saurfang or the old orcs not siding with garrosh. The cows know these things are wrong, see carine challenging garrosh just because of some Druids, Same with the blood elfs the undead ect ect. Both sides know that wiping out non combatants is wrong thing to do from a lore stand point rather the writers actually write that well is a whole another thing.

3.sylvanas didn’t get off scot free but the many of those who did these acts with her did. She want a one elf army she had soldiers of every rank standing happily with her and backing her up until she left them.

[Syegfryed]

Sometimes I wonder how Blizzard writers would react if they ever read stuff like "Burning of Teldrassil was not evil" or "Genocide of the draenei was the draenei's fault". They'd probably be laughing their ass off at how someone could possibly misunderstand their story so much.

giving the fact that the Draenei indeed brought the Legion to Draenor, like they did with every other planet, and didn't warn the citizens of an incoming army of demons i don't know if they would laugh that much in this part

[matrix123mko]

Genocide = A couple of preemptive strikes. That's Horde fanboys' logic to you

Still better preemptive strike than assassinate attempt allied sovereign.

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its not like the Draenei brought the legion to then

Fair point. Velen knew what his appearance means to locals.

[Eggroll]

Can we crashland the Vindicaar on Orgrimmar? That would be like killing two birds with one stone.

[Minikin]

Horde did all they could to save Azeroth for two last expansion. As always, Alliance attacked them in the most dire time. Horde leadership, however, for some reasons wants to stand by while their subjects are slaughtered by Alliance forces.


This is clear sign of your ignorance. Sylvanas legally claimed her title when Warchief Geya'rah sworn loyalty to her.


Magatha's disregard of rituals shows how practical person she is. Mak'gora is the way to choose the strongest for the Warchief but there are other ways to maintain the strength. Warchief Orgrim(in original story) claimed his power by silent assassination of previous Warchief. He knew that honor is secondary value after survival, the reason Horde was created.


The expansion starts with Gul'dan imprisoned, so we know that it was after war with Draenei started. In main universe Horde started the war without fel power too. They had reasons to believe that Draenei are planning an invasion against them so they did a couple of preemptive strikes.

As we can see, although Velen didn't plan an invasion, other Draenei are more than happy to kill.

oh the one that was given to her by the entity that wants everyone to be fed into the abyss so his and her power can increase.


great leader. will follow. 5/7.

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Currently, we are at an armistice and by all accounts from interviews the conflict isn't over its paused.

Alliance and Horde have switched roles.
One going to tyrannical regime to a council of nations.
The other going from a council of nations to a tyrannical regime.

The Night Elves are significantly reduced in number. And Homeless.
Forsaken still homeless.

Horde has new leadership but many of the old faces that were around during Garrosh and Sylvanas persist.

Alliance once again has gotten the brunt of the atrocities while the Horde remains relatively untouched besides a few soldiers and characters.

Where do we go from here?
What can the Horde do that will make anything better? Is it even on the Horde to do anything at all?
Even if they do... will it be enough? Did the Horde go too far and this is prelude to yet another faction war?

the horde cannot make amends because it was pigeon holed into a scenario that a game cannot resolve. It is impossible to have a meaningful result in a video game where both sides are playable as a subscription. which is why faction war nonsense is the dumbest thing ever, and by that extension faction loyalty is also dumb. Because there will never be a defining result. there will never be a "ok these ppl suck, these ppl dont". It will always come down to a "but we had no choice" "we didnt know". this is exactly why:
1. genn never got reprimanded for his stupidity in stormhiem
2. the horde never got smacked to bits and pieces for garrosh and sylvanas.

this is also why the argument of "but they keep killing off my main faction npc names" argument falls, because thats all the story can do. since it cannot actively decimate a faction as that would annihilate subs, all they can do is bench or kill off npcs.

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Which is which? I cannot apply any of the two statements to either faction.

I could, however, see
- Alliance stays the tyrannical regime it have always been.
- Horde stays a council of nations, it have always been.

shouldnt you be fixing your lore issues rather than making incorrect claims. i seem to recall

Stonetaln was Tauren lands and Southshore was destroyed by Deathwing.

[Shiza]

giving the fact that the Draenei indeed brought the Legion to Draenor, like they did with every other planet, and didn't warn the citizens of an incoming army of demons i don't know if they would laugh that much in this part

No he didn't. It was Gul'dan, who made a deal with Kil'jaeden, lol, learn the lore. It is also lore that the Orcs always would have become genocidal and joined the Legion, even if they would have been never tricked by the Legion, as confirmed by WoD.

[allawyn]

1. The majority of the horde war forces stood with sylvanas rather that meant going along with the burning of the tree murdering civ’s in settlements that did nothing to them ect. This isn’t the same as punishing a random German soldier who was on the front line this is the majority saying they were “just following orders” as they cheered as the tree burned or stuck civs to Walls with spears.

The horde as a whole shouldn’t be blamed there are as dole stood against her actions and rebelled but the majority are just as guilty as any sylvanas loyalist.

2. The morality of wow might be poorly written isn’t a one sided alliance thing. The Orcs know these kinds of things are wrong, see saurfang or the old orcs not siding with garrosh. The cows know these things are wrong, see carine challenging garrosh just because of some Druids, Same with the blood elfs the undead ect ect. Both sides know that wiping out non combatants is wrong thing to do from a lore stand point rather the writers actually write that well is a whole another thing.

3.sylvanas didn’t get off scot free but the many of those who did these acts with her did. She want a one elf army she had soldiers of every rank standing happily with her and backing her up until she left them.

1) But it is the same thing as the German Soldier. He was fighting to prevent people from taking over his country while Hitler was rounding people up and killing them. In fact, unlike the German soldiers, a lot of Horde soldiers stopped fighting the other side and were willing to fight their own leader.

2) I have to say that this response reads as a strawman. I didn't claim that Horde soldiers thought it wasn't wrong. But those who claim that premodern morality allows them to insist that it is OK to kill or enslave "the Horde" have to know that premodern morality can also allow the burning the Teldrasil to be OK. Now you have responded by claiming that WOW has its own morality. But if you want to claim that moraity makes burning Teldrasil evil, but rounding up Horde civilians (as the posts I was responding to were claiming) OK, you have done anything to support that.

3) There is no information either way to what happened to the people who fired the catapults. In fact, you have scenes of Sylvanas loyalists being arrested after the war. The idea that they got off "Scott free" is dubious at best.

[Mungho]

No he didn't. It was Gul'dan, who made a deal with Kil'jaeden, lol, learn the lore. It is also lore that the Orcs always would have become genocidal and joined the Legion, even if they would have been never tricked by the Legion, as confirmed by WoD.

Blizzard has been bending over backward to retcon every action of orcs evil. I heard in the latest chronicle that it says the orcs raped and murdered draenei for the whole 200 years they lived on Draenor. Kil'jaeden simply pushed them to finish the job. I have never seen a MMO company completely destroy the spirit of a faction like Blizzard has the horde. The horde is broken, destroyed as a faction. It can never make amends because of the sheer scale of what the writers have made it do.

[matrix123mko]

oh the one that was given to her by the entity that wants everyone to be fed into the abyss so his and her power can increase.


great leader. will follow. 5/7.

I didn't know Geya'rah has some abyss. I guess this is why Yrel is after her.

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Can we crashland the Vindicaar on Orgrimmar? That would be like killing two birds with one stone.

We will get rid of Alliance weapon and remove Baine from the game.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

1) But it is the same thing as the German Soldier. He was fighting to prevent people from taking over his country while Hitler was rounding people up and killing them. In fact, unlike the German soldiers, a lot of Horde soldiers stopped fighting the other side and were willing to fight their own leader.

2) I have to say that this response reads as a strawman. I didn't claim that Horde soldiers thought it wasn't wrong. But those who claim that premodern morality allows them to insist that it is OK to kill or enslave "the Horde" have to know that premodern morality can also allow the burning the Teldrasil to be OK. Now you have responded by claiming that WOW has its own morality. But if you want to claim that moraity makes burning Teldrasil evil, but rounding up Horde civilians (as the posts I was responding to were claiming) OK, you have done anything to support that.

3) There is no information either way to what happened to the people who fired the catapults. In fact, you have scenes of Sylvanas loyalists being arrested after the war. The idea that they got off "Scott free" is dubious at best.

1.There was a subset of horde that were just fighting for there country but that subset are the same people who sided with saurfang. The rest of the horde which stuck with sylvanas knew what they were about and were happily going along with it. The civilian population is another story but as far as the army goes the majority would be the Germans “just following orders” not the front line defenders blind to the horrors going on at home.

2. My point was likely poorly made. What I was trying to get across is that with in wow the morality isn’t from a alliance view point where you can kill and enslave orca/undead willy nilly but that’s all of the horde races hold onto similar ideals when it comes to targeting non combatants. There has of course been writing problems but in world both sides have shown similar morals when it comes to civ’s.

3. The problem Is that blizzard try’s to break it up to sylvanas loyalist. The people who did these things aren’t just hard core sylvanas fans they were just average horde soldiers who knew what they were about and were happy for it you would need half the horde army in chains as loyalist to realistic cover those happy genocidal turn of the horde.

[Mehrunes]

This is clear sign of your ignorance. Sylvanas legally claimed her title when Warchief Geya'rah sworn loyalty to her.

Why on earth would the legality of Sylvanas' title relay on Geya'rah swearing fealty to her? Sylvanas received an oath from the members of the Horde. That's pretty much all there is to it.

oh the one that was given to her by the entity that wants everyone to be fed into the abyss so his and her power can increase.


great leader. will follow. 5/7.

Since when does Jailer hand around Horde titles? Even calling what he did a nomination would be a stretch.

No he didn't. It was Gul'dan, who made a deal with Kil'jaeden, lol, learn the lore. It is also lore that the Orcs always would have become genocidal and joined the Legion, even if they would have been never tricked by the Legion, as confirmed by WoD.

Gul'dan kinda wouldn't have been able to make a deal with Kil'jaeden without a Kil'jaeden around. And the reason Kil'jaeden was around is because the Legion followed the Draenei to that world... Also, one case of WoD doesn't establish that the Orcs would always join the Legion. Especially since they joined the Legion due to getting their asses kicked by alternate reality travelers (which is as out of the norm as it gets) and got backed against the wall.

Notice how I didn't say all bad thing are because of Orcs

But you still said that nearly every every bad thing can be traced back to Orcs. But here you are, admitting that the root cause of Orcs going apeshit was the Draenei dragging the Legion to their world without even warning its inhabitants of the coming threat and leading to the Orcs' corruption. At which point your original point ceases to be. Because if you want to stop at Orcs you're ending the trace half way.