If Horrific Visions is anything to go by, Torghast is DOA

[Soluna]

I hear it has no timer, and is more random, but other than that, it's fairly similar. It's still 1-5 man content where you "beat as much as possible before defeated". I also consider the Withered training in Legion to be similarly unfun.

I am certainly interested in learning more about the system, if you still think I am completely off the mark.

I don't know all the details, but aside from the things you mentioned, you will be working towards crafting legendaries in there, and also your class will be getting certain traits with a trade off. For example they showed that ele shamans can make their fire elemental permanent while not being able to use any of your frost spells, essentially making you a pet class with primal elementalist.

I think it's pretty cool that you can build something class wise like that. There can't be more variety really than that, it's a very fresh type of content, and just because it's 1-5 man, that doesn't make it the same as horrific visions. Look at m+, and look at mythic 0s. M+ is literally the same content just upscaled with a couple of affixes and a timer, yet it's infinitely more fun than a +0. I think that torghast could be a third pve endgame pillar if executed correctly tbh.

[MORGATH99]

this thread is DOA

[bullseyed]

We know the WoW team is working on new content literally 2 expansions before they hit live servers. This means, even before BfA released, they were probably already working on Horrific Visions and, by extension, Torghast. No matter how little you enjoy Horrific Visions, Torghast was already designed to be pretty much the same thing long before they had any chance to get any feedback.

Blizzard has completely gambled that people would enjoy Horrific Visions and doubled down on this idea in Torghast. This whole single run - "do your best" kind of content.

I can only speak for myself, and mention I do not enjoy Horrific Visions at this point in time. I tried to do it solo as a Resto Shaman, and it was extremely slow and inefficient. I was "forced" to respec to Enhancement, and even in this spec, I don't enjoy it. The reason is that it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of. It's like a solo version of Mythic+, a system I already despise.

They already nerfed HP by about half for healers. And shaman is one of the best DPS of all the healers. If you're struggling, it is because you're bad at WoW.

As a result, your opinion on how good or bad various game modes are is essentially worthless. And if you don't like WoW, there are other games. The game isn't made for you. Not liking M+ or visions has no impact on reality.

[Vakna]

I love how OP leaves out all the key points of information that would disagree with his point of view. Classic MMOC.

[Revamp Man]

I tried to queue for LFR wing 4 today as DPS spec. Queue time? 2 hours. Wonder why people don't want to queue as Healer or Tank? In my opinion, because of how un-friendly dailies and horrific visions is to those roles.

Are you guys saying just because Torghast is more random and don't have a timer, all of the sudden people will be OK with being inefficient in Shadowlands and the role distribution will improve?

Just because there is no timer does not mean is it really inefficient to go in as a healer.

.....are you serious??

Lfr always has a huge wait for dps
Everything has a huge wait for dps

Killing something is always more efficient as a dps spec

You choose to not be efficient

[goldentforce]

I feel the comparison of horrific visions to torghast is weak at best. Horrific visions are basically 2 set scenarios with very minor changes each time, nothing to the level of a rogue or rogue lite. Whereas torghast is a series of levels with changing enemies changing layouts and changing player power. Presumably there is no timer and the content is able to be done in a group of you are a healer or tank so you don't have to Solo. If you are choosing to do horrific visions solo you will have some issues and the content is supposed to feel stressful because the content is designed for you to progress with time and skill to eventually completing the content for good.

Torghast and horrific visions are not the same content. They play differently and have completely different designs. It's very likely some people will enjoy one and not the other because they are completely different. Any complaints of horrific visions are about horrific visions, not torghast, or are at blizzards overall design intentions.

[FelPlague]

I hear it has no timer, and is more random, but other than that, it's fairly similar. It's still 1-5 man content where you "beat as much as possible before defeated". I also consider the Withered training in Legion to be similarly unfun.

I am certainly interested in learning more about the system, if you still think I am completely off the mark.

"I know literally nothing about toghast, but i deem it dead on arrival"

[Powerogue]

I can see why it would appeal to certain classes more than others. Classes that can comfortably chain-pull while soloing definitely have the easiest time, which is why my rogue and WW monk haven't had too much trouble.

If you're a healer, why on earth would you try to solo these? Go with someone!

[Akibaboy]

I can only speak for myself, and mention I do not enjoy Horrific Visions at this point in time. I tried to do it solo as a Resto Shaman, and it was extremely slow and inefficient. I was "forced" to respec to Enhancement, and even in this spec, I don't enjoy it. The reason is that it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of. It's like a solo version of Mythic+, a system I already despise.

If you don't like playing WoW, you're probably not going to like playing WoW later this year.

You're not just describing M+, but really any high end play of the game. High-end raids require you to move a lot and go through "stressful" crunches of time via mechanics. Honestly I feel like M+10-15 is more stationary auto-pilot for me than raiding, except for specific boss mechanics.

What Horrific Visions gives you is the ability to tailor how difficult you want it to be. Don't feel confident in your ability to tackle 5 bosses? That's fine. You're still progressing at your own pace with each run. Mother's Research will eventually push you to a point where basically anyone should be able to take a significant chunk out of it, and if you don't have the skill to do so then the gear afforded to you is perfectly adequate for the kind of grouped end game content appropriate for your skill level.

Horrific Visions is a place designed for AoE melee/hunter DPS. It's a system that takes a long time to do, so it feels more like a chore than fun. It's also a system that many people already are getting bored by. This means people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months.

If something isn't specifically tailored for all classes, that does not invalidate its existence, just means there's more opportunities to find challenging things in the game. So far I've 5 bossed Horrific Visions on Disc Priest, multiple Lock specs, Balance Druid, and Blood DK. Some were way more difficult than others, but all of them felt like playing a video game... which is what we're here to do.

Lastly, I think from the examples of Torghast that I got the impression that they're much more like Hearthstone's Dungeon Runs - enemies and layouts are NOT fixed like HVs, you'll be creating "builds" each run with affixes that you try and synergize, and the more you do them you'll get access to more perks.

Overall, I feel I can't relate to you take because any time the game introduces a piece of content that asks me to push myself and my skills further, then that's a positive. Islands and Warfronts were mostly DoA for me because they didn't require skill or engagement of any kind. M+ and HV are on the other end of that spectrum.

[MiiiMiii]

If you don't like playing WoW, you're probably not going to like playing WoW later this year.

You're not just describing M+, but really any high end play of the game. High-end raids require you to move a lot and go through "stressful" crunches of time via mechanics. Honestly I feel like M+10-15 is more stationary auto-pilot for me than raiding, except for specific boss mechanics.

What Horrific Visions gives you is the ability to tailor how difficult you want it to be. Don't feel confident in your ability to tackle 5 bosses? That's fine. You're still progressing at your own pace with each run. Mother's Research will eventually push you to a point where basically anyone should be able to take a significant chunk out of it, and if you don't have the skill to do so then the gear afforded to you is perfectly adequate for the kind of grouped end game content appropriate for your skill level.


If something isn't specifically tailored for all classes, that does not invalidate its existence, just means there's more opportunities to find challenging things in the game. So far I've 5 bossed Horrific Visions on Disc Priest, multiple Lock specs, Balance Druid, and Blood DK. Some were way more difficult than others, but all of them felt like playing a video game... which is what we're here to do.

Lastly, I think from the examples of Torghast that I got the impression that they're much more like Hearthstone's Dungeon Runs - enemies and layouts are NOT fixed like HVs, you'll be creating "builds" each run with affixes that you try and synergize, and the more you do them you'll get access to more perks.

Overall, I feel I can't relate to you take because any time the game introduces a piece of content that asks me to push myself and my skills further, then that's a positive. Islands and Warfronts were mostly DoA for me because they didn't require skill or engagement of any kind. M+ and HV are on the other end of that spectrum.

Don't misunderstand me. I love challanging content. But "fast" as a difficulty is not at all my style. I think "fast" as a difficulty is very lazy game design. Why can't strategy and careful planning be where the difficulty comes from?

I can make something challenging too. Here we go - a new mode even harder than Mythic Raids. It's called Mythic Raiding+. The premise is: You do the raid in Mythic difficulty, but you only have 3 hours to do it or you get less loot. Enjoy!

[Nadiru]

Don't misunderstand me. I love challanging content. But "fast" as a difficulty is not at all my style. I think "fast" as a difficulty is very lazy game design. Why can't strategy and careful planning be where the difficulty comes from?

Because careful planning done quickly is more challenging than careful planning done not quickly.

[Ezyah]

"I dont like x and since my opinion is the common truth and my infinite wisdom allows me to extrapolate , then everybody will hate y"

[Holdodlig]

I guess the two features that makes the visions be boring is the lack of replayability since the monsters and fights are always the same and the timer.

[Akibaboy]

Don't misunderstand me. I love challanging content. But "fast" as a difficulty is not at all my style. I think "fast" as a difficulty is very lazy game design. Why can't strategy and careful planning be where the difficulty comes from?

I can make something challenging too. Here we go - a new mode even harder than Mythic Raids. It's called Mythic Raiding+. The premise is: You do the raid in Mythic difficulty, but you only have 3 hours to do it or you get less loot. Enjoy!

But the way you're framing the argument is not inherent to the design of the timed elements in use in the game now. In your example of Mythic Raiding +, you're saying it's not actually designed any differently and is just a feature that's tacked on. But...

1) With Horrific Visions, time is an isn't a tenant of its design. There was never a base version of it that said "hey, take as long as you like" because it's inherently not the core concept on a gameplay and immersive level. Just like you would progressively go more insane in the fight with Yogg Saron, they're again bringing back the mechanic of you going progressively more insane in HVs. What you boil down as "time" is actually an otherwise dwindling resource that can be taken away and added to based on your skill - fail to do a mechanic and you can lose that resource. The usage of that resource is directly based on the player skill, not just a "do it in 10 minutes or lose". A tank may not care about getting punched in the face by a certain attack in comparison to a DPS, but every player is going to want to dodge sanity draining attacks.

2) The structure of Mythic+ kind of falls apart without the time element. Without that metric, how do you measure whether the group deserves to have the key upgraded or not? Does it just always upgrade if you complete it? Rather than players asking themselves what they could feasibly accomplish, you'd have groups chain wiping on bosses from keys they'd managed to grind their way to, dropping members and rotating people in an out, and generally doing their best to try and cheese or burn fights or dungeons they genuinely aren't capable of. The way M+ works, there's a measurable metric to understand whether or not you really belong at that level. I'd much rather have that system than the dungeon finder being filled with entries "Shrine +21 wiping at Stormsong need Disc Priest" because the only thing they care about is finishing. So could you add a 3 hour limit to raids and call it a day? Sure. But without the increase in difficulty it wouldn't really matter because the time limit doesn't create difficulty, it exists to measure whether you're adequately handling the content you are currently doing.

[ddsad2212]

I tried to queue for LFR wing 4 today as DPS spec. Queue time? 2 hours. Wonder why people don't want to queue as Healer or Tank? In my opinion, because of how un-friendly dailies and horrific visions is to those roles.

Are you guys saying just because Torghast is more random and don't have a timer, all of the sudden people will be OK with being inefficient in Shadowlands and the role distribution will improve?

Just because there is no timer does not mean is it really inefficient to go in as a healer.

We have no idea what the content is going to be like. They said in one of the panels you would be able to get upgrades to your character during the run. They could add party members into it for healers or tanks who they need to keep alive. We don't know what the content is so its impossible to say what will be best. If its like other rougelike games then the base power of the class might not matter compared to its power after a few upgrades

[chiddie]

Tanks are perfectly fine in visions, you just can't play like a turtle. Even healers are fine(probably too good damage wise, even) after the nerfs.

They are perfectly fine if you are overgeared with tons of rightly corrupted stuff, talents tree of the forge completed and cloak at least 13-14.

Of course you can 0-100 in 3 seconds with the right Ferrari.

[Mardux]

I think it is a good start. I have two very big gripes at the moment:
1. Timegating. If this Torghast is timegated like this and I can not even do it just to practise or for fun, it will feel a lot more stressful. You have less tries, thus more pressure which just sucks, especially if you fail. "Gues ill try next week" is not a fun feeling.
2. RNG. There is too much RNG in the visions currently. Potion spawn locations, the location of the buff and what you need to do for it, the randomly spawning mob at low sanity, the time and positioning of the disorienting circle, the proc of the sanity immunity buff, etc. etc. Dumb combinations can quickly end your run and there is nothing you can do about it. There is also less room for optimization, because you have to keep every single RNG thing in mind, ruining the whole spirit.

So you would rather it be exactly the same every single time?

And btw, most of the things you listed are easily tracked and have cooldowns letting you plan around them.

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They are perfectly fine if you are overgeared with tons of rightly corrupted stuff, talents tree of the forge completed and cloak at least 13-14.

Of course you can 0-100 in 3 seconds with the right Ferrari.

Really? Cuz it was fine with only up to elite extermination unlocked, rank 9 cloak, barely 450 ilvl, and only the searing breath corruption.

[dreamdaddy]

I tried to queue for LFR wing 4 today as DPS spec. Queue time? 2 hours. Wonder why people don't want to queue as Healer or Tank? In my opinion, because of how un-friendly dailies and horrific visions is to those roles.

Are you guys saying just because Torghast is more random and don't have a timer, all of the sudden people will be OK with being inefficient in Shadowlands and the role distribution will improve?

Just because there is no timer does not mean is it really inefficient to go in as a healer.

N'Zoth isn't a typical LFR boss, you can't just brute force it. People need cloaks and they need to do certain things. It would really be better to join a regular group/guild and clear the content in Normal/Heroic.

[Oneirophobia]

I do not enjoy Horrific Visions ...

it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of ...

Mythic+, a system I already despise. ...

... they try to tell me to "..find a group", I'm out.

So you don't like visions, you don't like M+, you don't want to have to dodge anything, and you don't want to group.


What exactly is there left in this game for you? Single player pet battles?

It seems to me like you're golfing but you really hate golf.

[FelPlague]

They are perfectly fine if you are overgeared with tons of rightly corrupted stuff, talents tree of the forge completed and cloak at least 13-14.

Of course you can 0-100 in 3 seconds with the right Ferrari.

Actually soulsobreezy has a series he does where he get undergeared alts and sees how far he can go, most of the time not even knowing how the classes work, doing NOTHING but visions with them, to see if you can complete them using just the stuff you get from visions, plus the invasions that you are required to do, to get visions.
so hes like 410, maybe 420 doing 5 chest clears on tons of classes, who have like level 55 neck, and only 1 or 2 essences.

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I think it is a good start. I have two very big gripes at the moment:
1. Timegating. If this Torghast is timegated like this and I can not even do it just to practise or for fun, it will feel a lot more stressful. You have less tries, thus more pressure which just sucks, especially if you fail. "Gues ill try next week" is not a fun feeling.
2. RNG. There is too much RNG in the visions currently. Potion spawn locations, the location of the buff and what you need to do for it, the randomly spawning mob at low sanity, the time and positioning of the disorienting circle, the proc of the sanity immunity buff, etc. etc. Dumb combinations can quickly end your run and there is nothing you can do about it. There is also less room for optimization, because you have to keep every single RNG thing in mind, ruining the whole spirit.

1. they said there would be little, plus being able to like 6-7 a week is not really "timegating" as much as having to wait each week for the raid to reset is.

2. LOLOL what? potions are so insanely predictable. As is the buff locations, there is only 4 per map, and 2 are active at a time, and what you need to do to activate them is the EXACT SAME every time, literally you just check those areas first. 2 of them are in the starting zone, then 1 in each of the teir 2 areas.. like holy moly.

SW- (Starting area) Kill angry bear rug/kill dude in shop (Tier 2) Run through mine room, step on green mine/kill the guild bank elemental
Org-(Starting area) Kill gamon/kill blacksmith (Tier 2) kill shaman/open ethereal portal and kill him

its literally that fucking simple.


3. the randomly spawning mobs at low sanity? thats not RNG, that has an internal timer.

4. LOLOL basic mechanics are RNG now? the disoreinting circle is AGAIN an internal timer.

5. "Sanity immunity buff" AGAIN INTERNAL TIMER

all of these things you are crying about being RNG ARE NOT RNG they are litertally the opposite, you just dont know how to count.

also yes there is TONS of room for optimization, because you KNOW when these things are going to happen. that is if you actually do some research instead of crying about RNG.

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So you don't like visions, you don't like M+, you don't want to have to dodge anything, and you don't want to group.


What exactly is there left in this game for you? Single player pet battles?

It seems to me like you're golfing but you really hate golf.

Yeah idk a single place in the game where you dont have to dodge stuff or group up, or play a spec other then your normal spec to be efficient.
like i guess your right literally just pet battles, as even world quests mobs have aoes you gotta dodge.