LFR N'zoth--Don't bother until the inevitable nerf

[oplawlz]

Overcoming any kind of challenge is not what i want to do in world of warcraft. I want to see the content i pay for.

Okay zoomer, listen up. You pay for the opportunity to experience content. If you're looking for a form of entertainment without the chance for failure you have invested poorly. You're not entitled to see the end of a game just for buying it.

That said I'm sure we'll see nerfs to the encounter pretty soon. The difficulty spike is a bit too high there.

[Asrialol]

Sure, people also just may unsub if the devs create LFR unplayable for matchmade groups.

Seems at least Hazzikostas and his team do not really care about them.



But that is not what LFR is about. LFR is a theater mode, for the massive amount of players that give a shit about premade groups and wiping their ass off.



No, actually LFR was meant to allow all players to see the expensive raid content. Quote Hazzikostas. Currently, the devs are not even capable to fulfil that easy task.



The devs overtuned it, once again, to make people play longer. And wait until its nerfed. Old trick.



No, i do not want to. I rather play another game than investing any money into a game the developers do not cater to my and million other players needs. And whatever you want me to do, i do not care about it either.

You and Ion and other effort mongers can shove up the game to their ass. Try to finance raid content without the audience for a theater mode version, which just want to see the story ending, without the need to read guides.

Seems like this game isn't for you. Just unsub? It's not a big deal that people unsubscribe, you know.

[Kralljin]

Without LFR, there would be no raid content at all anymore. Because those who financed the raids missed a large audience for that expensive content.

I doubt it, it would just be "lower quality".

A huge amount of resources that go into modern raids as opposed to earlier raids is largely on a visual level.

Look at raids like MC,BWL, SSC, TK, Hyjal or SWP, those raids are pretty devoid of any new art assets and were put together by Exterior artists in a rather quick fashion - they mostly used Assets from 5man Dungeons (or Silvermoon in the case of SWP) and upscaled them for a larger enviroment.
Throw in 2-3 unique boss models, alongside tier sets and there you go.

The rest was then left to the encounter design, who probably had an easier time designing encounters than nowadays because it was just one fixed raidsize and one difficulty where they could do whatever they wanted.

Whereas nowadays they have to worry about 4(!) difficulties, two of which vary in raidsize from 10 to 30 people and with the community also becoming more competitive, the team can't just drop an encounter into there that starts at 30% or something similiar.


This argument goes both ways, the participation rates were lower, but so was the production value.

[Relapses]

WoW had it before FFXIV existed. There were the attunements that required you to have completed a number of dungeons and story quests. My observation is that people entering raids for the first time in Burning Crusade were far more competent with basic gameplay mechanics than new people now. Considering the enormously bigger pool of addons, guides and videos today you'd think it should be the other way around. The answer is that it's the game which should teach you how to play, not require you to alt tab to learn more than you do in the game itself.

It's ironic how WoW has moved out of its original concept and that FFXIV now successfully employs it and is given as a good example. The "anything goes" is a bad approach in game as much as it is outside of games. It always cultivates incompetence, ignorance and aggression.

If TBC were around today, you'd need to complete all M+ dungeons at level 15 before you'd even be able to queue for Mythic Wrathion. (All other versions of the encounter wouldn't exist. Also, despite having to complete all +15s, you'd have to do it wearing the same gear you get from entry level dungeons unless you have a Mythic raider friend who wants to carry you.)

These changes happened for a reason. Your idealized version of WoW was accessible to nobody and the argument that "{x game} does it and it's fine" is one of the shittiest around. People complain about homogenization of classes but then in the same breath want the homogenization of the entire MMO genre. Truly remarkable mental gymnastics.

[Asrialol]

Overcoming any kind of challenge is not what i want to do in world of warcraft. I want to see the content i pay for.

Your payment doesn't entitle you to anything other than access to the servers. What content you see and do is all depending on how much effort and time you put into the game.

Jesus.

[hyphnos]

Your payment doesn't entitle you to anything other than access to the servers. What content you see and do is all depending on how much effort and time you put into the game.

Jesus.

No it is dependent on how much money ATVI wants to make. You are making this into some sort of moral question about "earning" shit. This is a fucking commercial product that you pay more than you pay for netflix. Does netflix make you jump through x hrs or arbitrary hoops to watch this that or the other ? no they fucking don't because they like people's money.

So does ATVI so your fantasy world where everyone does some arbitrary amount of effort and time input to do whatever is based on nothing more than accountants in a room somewhere deciding what money put where generates what return on investment. LFR is the result of that type of calculation and LFR's accessibility is part of that equation and if and when they make it so unbearable people don't set foot in it, then it will and does get changed.

No moralizing or lording over people necessary. It's about ATVI and how much money they can pry from CUSTOMERS hands, not your self-righteous views about who should be entitled to what because of your own personal "reasons".

Edit: also, note that you left off the simplest and easiest way to get into that content not at a lfr but an elite level. money. as in buy gold, buy carry with said gold. take that and stick it in your self-righteous craw.

jesus.

[rhorle]

The only ones who can improve the playability of LFR are the devs. They cannot force players to study boss mechanics for a theater mode. They cannot force the players to play the raiding game like a premade group. If they want to justify massive raiding content with LFR, they have to make gameplay for the large audience that plays LFR.

So it sounds like players can do a lot to improve the playability of LFR. After all you have lots of things that are completely in the players control as reasons why LFR can only be improved by the developers.

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I think it is ridiculous to invest any time effort in wiping to pixel bosses. How pathetic must people be to try again and again and again just to manage to see the big goober die in a video game. That is typical nolifer, but nothing people would do who play a game in their sparetime.

And yet here you are complaining that you don't get to see the pixel boss and don't get to see the big goober die in a video game. What is worse the one who complains about no lifers for not being able to do what they do, or those who enjoy their chosen entertainment?

[Benggaul]

no offense here. totally understand to being pissed on such a hillarious cheap shit design, because no one invested time or money to think about or even test that shit for one minute. hillarious.

that said: how IN THE HELL you managed it to stay for 17, in letters SEVENTEEN, tries of that BS ???

you are either the
- patients person in the world
- the hardest person in the world
- the most masochist person in the world
- or the stupidest person in the world

nonetheless: my respect. 17 wipes in the idiot lottery just to see blizzards cheap shit ending of „here is the big bad old god. have fun. we are working on next xpac. thx bb.“

you are craaaazyyyy

Honestly, it was mostly the sunk cost fallacy. It was a rare occasion where I had time to invest in trying to get it done and it was the first day of LFR for this wing so I figured everyone was just trying to figure out how to do it, and after having spent so long in this group trying to do it I felt like if I waited juuuust a bit more through one or two more wipes we would finally click and get it--orrrrrr I didn't want to leave after having already spent so much time there just to find out that they were able to do it immediately after. It was a waste of time, ultimately, but oh well. I'm generally a pretty patient person (especially when it comes to LFR), but after that day I knew immediately that it would be a further waste of my time to try again until the nerfs came (and they've already started coming--expect more when the dev team is able to get around to it; the coronavirus thing seems to be throwing a wrench into even game development at this point).

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Why are people doing LFR anyway?

You get better gear from WQs?

As has already been mentioned several times, gear is not the only reason people LFR. As for myself, I don't have time to do Normal raids, usually, so I do LFR to see the story and for some "fun" items like toys/pets.

[Asrialol]

No it is dependent on how much money ATVI wants to make. You are making this into some sort of moral question about "earning" shit. This is a fucking commercial product that you pay more than you pay for netflix. Does netflix make you jump through x hrs or arbitrary hoops to watch this that or the other ? no they fucking don't because they like people's money.

So does ATVI so your fantasy world where everyone does some arbitrary amount of effort and time input to do whatever is based on nothing more than accountants in a room somewhere deciding what money put where generates what return on investment. LFR is the result of that type of calculation and LFR's accessibility is part of that equation and if and when they make it so unbearable people don't set foot in it, then it will and does get changed.

No moralizing or lording over people necessary. It's about ATVI and how much money they can pry from CUSTOMERS hands, not your self-righteous views about who should be entitled to what because of your own personal "reasons".

Edit: also, note that you left off the simplest and easiest way to get into that content not at a lfr but an elite level. money. as in buy gold, buy carry with said gold. take that and stick it in your self-righteous craw.

jesus.

Comparing wow to Netflix. Not sure if I should take you seriously or not.

I pay Netflix roughly 13€ per month. For that money, I know exactly what titles I get access to. It's my choice if I want to spend time watching it all, or just some of it.

I pay what, 15€ for wow? For that, I can choose to level alts and then quit, I can do only pet battles, I can do anything I want where the only limit is the content released. I'm not entitled to see endgame stuff just because I pay.

Jesus. Stop.

[Garymorilix]

As has already been mentioned several times, gear is not the only reason people LFR. As for myself, I don't have time to do Normal raids, usually, so I do LFR to see the story and for some "fun" items like toys/pets.

If you have time to do LFR then you have time to do Normal too.
Even a full HC clear takes less time than a full LFR clear.

What you don't have is the willingness to learn tactics and execute a rotation without going afk in the middle of the boss.

I can get behind ppl doing LFR for whatever reason, but saying that it takes less time than Normal/HC raiding is just plain wrong.

[Tiwack]

If you have time to do LFR then you have time to do Normal too.
Even a full HC clear takes less time than a full LFR clear.

What you don't have is the willingness to learn tactics and execute a rotation without going afk in the middle of the boss.

I can get behind ppl doing LFR for whatever reason, but saying that it takes less time than Normal/HC raiding is just plain wrong.

Nah, you assume they're not dealing with raidleaders being anal about the requirements to join their pugs/guilds. There's a lot of crap guilds and players looking to be carried/fool around rather than clear the content which makes LFR a good option in terms of time-investment to see and clear content. The shit goes both ways and there's no easy fix if you're not already part of a group.

[Gonfer]

Okay zoomer, listen up. You pay for the opportunity to experience content. If you're looking for a form of entertainment without the chance for failure you have invested poorly. You're not entitled to see the end of a game just for buying it.

That said I'm sure we'll see nerfs to the encounter pretty soon. The difficulty spike is a bit too high there.

"A little bit"..

[Garymorilix]

Nah, you assume they're not dealing with raidleaders being anal about the requirements to join their pugs/guilds. There's a lot of crap guilds and players looking to be carried/fool around rather than clear the content which makes LFR a good option in terms of time-investment to see and clear content. The shit goes both ways and there's no easy fix if you're not already part of a group.

"Raid leaders and their requirements" now this part is what makes the difference.

Everybody just thinks that they could do whatever they queue up for if only that nasty raid leader wouldn't ask for X score.
It's simply not true.
If you were playing on that level to begin with you would already have that score.

I only do pug HC raids (and mythic once it's not realm-restricted) and I never had a problem with my score. Because the stuff I play regurarly already gave me my score.
Why do you expect anyone to take you to a HC Nzoth fight when you don't even have one boss killed in the entire raid? Or only the first 4?

People think they are better than they really are. And that's somehow the fault of the system, but it isn't, but there is nothing else to blame it on.

[Gonfer]

Seems like this game isn't for you. Just unsub? It's not a big deal that people unsubscribe, you know.

Do you think all LFR players should unsubsribe, if they do not like the idea the devs let them do an organized fight in an unorganized setting?

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And yet here you are complaining that you don't get to see the pixel boss and don't get to see the big goober die in a video game. What is worse the one who complains about no lifers for not being able to do what they do, or those who enjoy their chosen entertainment?

The thing is WoW is not meant to be played by nolifers only, and LFR should not adress them at all. LFR is for those who login once a week to play a little bit.

Blizzard cannot adress them or does not want to adress them? Well, remove LFR.

On the other hand, if Blizzard wants the money of the casual gamers, they should add gameplay for them, and not just laugh about watching them wiping. Trolling may be fun for some of the readers on this forums, but a game designer should not use such method in designing a game for many.

[rhorle]

The thing is WoW is not meant to be played by nolifers only, and LFR should not adress them at all. LFR is for those who login once a week to play a little bit. Blizzard cannot adress them or does not want to adress them? Well, remove LFR. On the other hand, if Blizzard wants the money of the casual gamers, they should add gameplay for them, and not just laugh about watching them wiping. Trolling may be fun for some of the readers on this forums, but a game designer should not use such method in designing a game for many.

Having to actually perform and do mechanics does not mean you are a no lifer. And LFR can certainly handle harder encounters and mechanics. It has in the past just fine. Blizzard has added game play for "casual" gamers. The problem is your definition of casual is different then another persons. And another persons and another persons. It really is a subjective term. I only raid LFR by choice but I'm not a casual.

It isn't bad game design to have content that requires people do X. Logging on and receiving loot for doing nothing is also not good game design. Nor is it very engaging. Please provide proof that Blizzard is laughing at seem people wipe. You can't?

[Niwes]

Honestly, it was mostly the sunk cost fallacy. It was a rare occasion where I had time to invest in trying to get it done and it was the first day of LFR for this wing so I figured everyone was just trying to figure out how to do it, and after having spent so long in this group trying to do it I felt like if I waited juuuust a bit more through one or two more wipes we would finally click and get it--orrrrrr I didn't want to leave after having already spent so much time there just to find out that they were able to do it immediately after. It was a waste of time, ultimately, but oh well. I'm generally a pretty patient person (especially when it comes to LFR), but after that day I knew immediately that it would be a further waste of my time to try again until the nerfs came (and they've already started coming--expect more when the dev team is able to get around to it; the coronavirus thing seems to be throwing a wrench into even game development at this point).

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As has already been mentioned several times, gear is not the only reason people LFR. As for myself, I don't have time to do Normal raids, usually, so I do LFR to see the story and for some "fun" items like toys/pets.

ah ok, it was a „point of no return passed“ problem i know that

[kamuimac]

The loot that drops in LFR is much lower in ilvl than what you could potentially get via emissary WQs which are braindead easy to complete, so I'd say the "rewards" in LFR are already geared towards low effort.

this is somehting that i geniuinly dont understand .

the gear dropping there is garbage. i get normal raid quality gear for spending like 4x3s killing "rare" .

why make lfr aertificially difficult when it should be just a storymode.

[Asrialol]

Do you think all LFR players should unsubsribe, if they do not like the idea the devs let them do an organized fight in an unorganized setting?

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The thing is WoW is not meant to be played by nolifers only, and LFR should not adress them at all. LFR is for those who login once a week to play a little bit.

Blizzard cannot adress them or does not want to adress them? Well, remove LFR.

On the other hand, if Blizzard wants the money of the casual gamers, they should add gameplay for them, and not just laugh about watching them wiping. Trolling may be fun for some of the readers on this forums, but a game designer should not use such method in designing a game for many.

If they don't like it - then yes, why would they keep playing and paying for the game when they don't enjoy it? Lfr has had fights like this before, sometimes they get nerfed, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the nerfs takes a long time to happen. That's how it is with a lot of other aspects of this game.

It's not logical to pay for something you don't enjoy. And it doesn't matter if you are subbed or unsubbed, even though it might feel like that for yourselves. People need to stop treating the sub like it's something sacred and something you can use as an argument. Play or don't play, pay or don't pay.

[Benggaul]

Lfr has had fights like this before, sometimes they get nerfed, sometimes they don't.

I do have to say, I've been playing LFR since it was first implemented and this is the first time I've come to a boss that the group absolutely could not defeat. There were several in which we maxed determination and then beat, but this is the first time I've seen one that absolutely defeated most of the groups thrown at it. I've been hearing similar from several other people (both in this thread and in the game). This one just seems like one that wasn't fully tested in PTR at this level and is wildly overtuned for the expected difficulty level.

[Osmeric]

Comparing wow to Netflix. Not sure if I should take you seriously or not.

No, comparing ATVI to Netflix. Because they are both publicly traded corporations in which the executives are obligated to operate in the interests of the shareholders. That interest is to make money, not produce morality engines.