LFR N'zoth--Don't bother until the inevitable nerf

[AlmightyGerkin]

I had a friend in late MoP who was in a world top 30 guild and I had to explain to him why we were attacking Orgrimmar. He only vaguely knew who Thrall was.

Orc man bad

[Maljinwo]

Pretty sure at that point there must have been active trolls. Less than a minute per wipe and reset seems like it would take more of a concerted effort than just doing things correctly. :P

There were, in fact, at least 3 trolls who pulled on purpose. But even then, when they were kicked out, people would join in without the Cape

And at this point, people joining without the cape may be a new way of trolling

[slime]

It took me 30 mins to do the quest with a mage friend porting me around, because 80% of the cloak quest is travel. Don't tell me it takes 2 hours "if you know what you're doing" because I clearly do know what I'm doing, and you clearly do not.

Was this your first cloak? It's probably easier the second or third time around. The mage friend is also hilarious... let me just pull this mage friend out of my pocket.

[Marrilaife]

It took me 30 mins to do the quest with a mage friend porting me around, because 80% of the cloak quest is travel.

And that's why this quest is boring and many people won't bother doing it especially on alts. Who in Blizzard thought it's exciting to fly back and forth between zones for majority of your 8.3 story "experience".

I wonder what were Blizzard thinking was gonna happen letting people queue without the cloak.

Simple, they released the raid without the cloak requirement and hotfixed it in like 1-2 days after launch to FORCE people to get the cloak (because probably they saw data how many people skipped it when the news hit that the sanity protection is only for visions not for Nzoth), typical Blizzard hubris "players don't wanna do content, instead of wondering what did we do wrong just up the rewards and add punishment for not doing it". And of course forgot about this change and possible consequences of it, while LFR was ticking down on its timegate.

[Outofmana]

The only time LFR was tuned properly was in Pandaria @ Throne of Thunder; it was perfect. After that, you had undertuned braindead WoD and now the retardedly overtuned N"Zoth.

[cparle87]

And that's why this quest is boring and many people won't bother doing it especially on alts. Who in Blizzard thought it's exciting to fly back and forth between zones for majority of your 8.3 story "experience".

And yet people claim this as the pinnacle of game design in vanilla. Remember Linken's quest, or the Shimmering Flats taking place in half the zones of the Eastern Kingdoms? Why is it ok in vanilla be bad in BFA besides people using double standards?

[Kralljin]

Why is it ok in vanilla be bad in BFA besides people using double standards?

Different games, mate.

You also don't pour chocolate sauce over a sausage because it works so well on Vanilla icecream.

[NineSpine]

And yet people claim this as the pinnacle of game design in vanilla. Remember Linken's quest, or the Shimmering Flats taking place in half the zones of the Eastern Kingdoms? Why is it ok in vanilla be bad in BFA besides people using double standards?

Classic is paced very differently. It’s jarring to go from the extreme speed of retail to suddenly flying all over and taking your time. In classic, its in line with the rest of the experience so it doesn’t feel odd. Classic also has this quest spread happening all the time, so you are rarely doing these flights for one quest. You are usually strategizing your travel to advance multiple quests at once. For example, the shimmering flats do send you to Stranglethorn but it’s not like Stranglethorn has nothing else going on at that level. You go there and there are some other things to do while you are there.

Also, very few quests in classic are part of long chains, so saying “eh fuck that” and dropping the quest is almost always a viable option. In retail you basically have to do almost every quest.

[Wilfire]

Is it true that you can go in with 300 corruption, get insta mind-controlled and wipe the raid?

[cparle87]

Classic is paced very differently. It’s jarring to go from the extreme speed of retail to suddenly flying all over and taking your time. In classic, its in line with the rest of the experience so it doesn’t feel odd. Classic also has this quest spread happening all the time, so you are rarely doing these flights for one quest. You are usually strategizing your travel to advance multiple quests at once. For example, the shimmering flats do send you to Stranglethorn but it’s not like Stranglethorn has nothing else going on at that level. You go there and there are some other things to do while you are there.

Also, very few quests in classic are part of long chains, so saying “eh fuck that” and dropping the quest is almost always a viable option. In retail you basically have to do almost every quest.

"Very few quests are parts of chains so it's no big deal if you drop them" when I literally just told you two super long chains that did the same thing that is good then and horrible now. Or how about the Dungeon two chain, or the Onyxia chain, or the Darrowshore chain, or the Scholomance gambit chain. WoW has had long continent spanning endgame chains since the beginning. The game hasn't changed.

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Different games, mate.

You also don't pour chocolate sauce over a sausage because it works so well on Vanilla icecream.

When did we stop playing WoW and start playing something else? Nice strawman.

[Benggaul]

Different games, mate.

You also don't pour chocolate sauce over a sausage because it works so well on Vanilla icecream.

*ahem*
Chocolate-dipped sausage

[Marrilaife]

And yet people claim this as the pinnacle of game design in vanilla. Remember Linken's quest, or the Shimmering Flats taking place in half the zones of the Eastern Kingdoms? Why is it ok in vanilla be bad in BFA besides people using double standards?

I'm not a Classic fanboy, I didn't touch it because cba with broken class design even more so than the timewaste. People who like Classic can stay there, with their super skill requiring raids that are cleared in 40 mins after release with stacking 30 warriors.

No idea why should the game design be going backwards instead of forwards, like removing flying for half an xpac or adding gcd to everything, just to pander to Classic fanboys especially now that they have their own servers and content.

[Kralljin]

When did we stop playing WoW and start playing something else? Nice strawman.

15 years of development alter a product.

In Classic, a quest that sends you all over the world isn't exactly uncommon, in retail, the only quest that actually make you travel around the world are just the <campaign> ones and there, an individual chapter still only takes like 30min to complete.

BfA is a vastly different game than Classic, on so many levels.

[Danvash]

Any LFR boss with too much personal responsibility is overtuned. I say this as a mythic raider who wants things to be hard at the top level. There's a time and place for everything, and random LFR content is not the place for a high level of difficulty.

First there was Dark Animus (later nerfed), then Garrosh (nerfed), then Archimonde (nerfed), then Kil'jaeden, then G'huun. You'd think they'd have learned their lesson by now that a sizeable proportion of the people we get grouped with on American realms don't even speak English much less will listen to strategies and take on a responsibility that is required to kill the boss.

What they should be going for in LFR tuning is to let a small number of people who know the mechanics carry the fight if needed. The people who are doing their jobs in the raid while others are AFK or dead are also being punished by it, and there's nothing they can do about it. They can either leave and waste more time requeuing or stay for another 8 stacks of determination which might still not be enough.

Failing mechanics in LFR should kill your character, not wipe the entire raid. And enrage timers should be generous enough that many people can fail and others can still down the boss.

[owbu]

When did we stop playing WoW and start playing something else? Nice strawman.

Using "that is logical fallacy X" without having any clue what that means should get it's own name, so that people can use it for people doing something different.

[Benggaul]

Any LFR boss with too much personal responsibility is overtuned. I say this as a mythic raider who wants things to be hard at the top level. There's a time and place for everything, and random LFR content is not the place for a high level of difficulty.

First there was Dark Animus (later nerfed), then Garrosh (nerfed), then Archimonde (nerfed), then Kil'jaeden, then G'huun. You'd think they'd have learned their lesson by now that a sizeable proportion of the people we get grouped with on American realms don't even speak English much less will listen to strategies and take on a responsibility that is required to kill the boss.

What they should be going for in LFR tuning is to let a small number of people who know the mechanics carry the fight if needed. The people who are doing their jobs in the raid while others are AFK or dead are also being punished by it, and there's nothing they can do about it. They can either leave and waste more time requeuing or stay for another 8 stacks of determination which might still not be enough.

Failing mechanics in LFR should kill your character, not wipe the entire raid. And enrage timers should be generous enough that many people can fail and others can still down the boss.

I agree with most of this (seeing as how, as previously stated, I'm in LFR primarily just to SEE the content--not for loot). The only caveat I would add is that SOME challenge is fine. I've gotten up to 3-4 stacks of determination on several of the bosses in this raid without it being a big deal because the raid generally figured out their roles by then and we pushed through. But N'zoth, between the cloak ordeal and (relatively) large amount of mechanics to deal with in a format that is supposed specifically be for unorganized groups, leans too far on the punishing side of things.

[NineSpine]

"Very few quests are parts of chains so it's no big deal if you drop them" when I literally just told you two super long chains that did the same thing that is good then and horrible now. Or how about the Dungeon two chain, or the Onyxia chain, or the Darrowshore chain, or the Scholomance gambit chain. WoW has had long continent spanning endgame chains since the beginning. The game hasn't changed.

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When did we stop playing WoW and start playing something else? Nice strawman.

Wow retail and wow classic are as much the same game as fallout 3 and fallout 4 are the same game.

You didn’t really address the substance of my point about long quest chains. The handful of long endgame quest chains in classic are an extremely small part of the game. Almost every quest in the last few expansions is part of a chain.

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Using "that is logical fallacy X" without having any clue what that means should get it's own name, so that people can use it for people doing something different.

It’s called the fallacy fallacy.

[Nohara]

I queued, 40 minutes later I joined a group at 10 determination, 'it should be about 50' is what they said. We started, one tank was repairing outside the instance, we continued, people died before the first phase ended, mind controlled everywhere. I should have gone to MMO-Champ first..

[cparle87]

Wow retail and wow classic are as much the same game as fallout 3 and fallout 4 are the same game.

You didn’t really address the substance of my point about long quest chains. The handful of long endgame quest chains in classic are an extremely small part of the game. Almost every quest in the last few expansions is part of a chain.

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It’s called the fallacy fallacy.

Endgame long questchain taking you across the world in vanilla = "epic sweet gaming!"
Endgame long questchain taking you across the world now = "keep up this crap blizz and I'm unsubbing"

How is me calling what he said a strawman. He literally went "We're not playing WoW anymore, we're playing something else!" Isn't a strawman literally creating an argument out of thin air to try to refute your opponent without actually doing so?

[Kralljin]

Endgame long questchain taking you across the world in vanilla = "epic sweet gaming!"
Endgame long questchain taking you across the world now = "keep up this crap blizz and I'm unsubbing"

How is me calling what he said a strawman. He literally went "We're not playing WoW anymore, we're playing something else!" Isn't a strawman literally creating an argument out of thin air to try to refute your opponent without actually doing so?

Another reply has already given you a slight hint, that not everybody is necessarily on board with the game becoming "more like classic".

People have different opinons, which should be obvious.
And the point still stands, the game has changed over the last 15 years.