Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Lupinemancer]

Because the Horde don't have any cool factions like that, and instead of going around inventing new ones and wait till they are as well-known as the Alliance ones, they just make them neutral because the Horde is the little baby who deserves only the best.

[Ielenia]

Aren't they all evil maniacs though?

No.

It's proven now that all it takes is one axe-crazy Warchief to get the Orcs into war mode. And all other Horde races just blindly follow them.

No, it's proven that, just like any big group of people, they can be swayed by a charismatic leader feeding them lies.

There were literally no female Druids in Warcraft 3, and neither were there during the War of the Satyr, which was when it was founded.

Read what "retcon" means, please.

And why shouldn't the Cenarion Circle kick out Horde races? Chances are likely that Sylvanas has sent Druid spies to infiltrate the Cenarion Circle. Why take the risk?

"Xenophobic" does not equal "paranoid."

Night Elves are still especially xenophobic, probably even more after the burning of Teldrassil. Kicking out the Tauren and Trolls makes a lot of sense.

No, it doesn't.

@Buttwitch already answered this for me. Azeroth isn't real life, comparing it does not work.

It does because it's a similar situation. You're advocating for all Horde races to be kicked out, regardless of affiliations. Do you also advocate for all Alliance races be removed from the Cenarion Circle as well, because of Fandral Staghelm?

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I think it would have add flavor to the NE races (or any others races) if some classes were restricted by gender if it is supported by the lore.

Blizzard's motto is inclusivity, not exclusivity.

[Moonrage]

"I've lost but I'm going to take a bad example and use it as an argument as to why I haven't lost"

That is not a bad example. It's a logical answer to a bad comparison.

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Given the Horde's history of blindly following the Warchief, maybe they should have been.

Again, you simply can't compare wow to real life. Why don't these people just understand that jesus christ.

[Specialka]

No.


No, it's proven that, just like any big group of people, they can be swayed by a charismatic leader feeding them lies.


Read what "retcon" means, please.


"Xenophobic" does not equal "paranoid."


No, it doesn't.


It does because it's a similar situation. You're advocating for all Horde races to be kicked out, regardless of affiliations. Do you also advocate for all Alliance races be removed from the Cenarion Circle as well, because of Fandral Staghelm?

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Blizzard's motto is inclusivity, not exclusivity.

Yeah, but I read too much Warhammer. Maybe Blizzard should try it too ! Wait,...

[plz delete account]

That is not a bad example. It's a logical answer to a bad comparison.

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Again, you simply can't compare wow to real life. Why don't these people just understand that jesus christ.

Without that comparison, there wouldn't be a reason to invest and get attached to the story or the characters or the world... of Warcraft. "Hey look, these characters are struggling through tormoil just like I am, or someone I know!" becomes "Oh, these fuckers are at it again. jesus christ this game is lame"

[Moonrage]

Without that comparison, there wouldn't be a reason to invest and get attached to the story or the characters or the world... of Warcraft. "Hey look, these characters are struggling through tormoil just like I am, or someone I know!" becomes "Oh, these fuckers are at it again. jesus christ this game is lame"

Again because I'm too lazy to type it myself

Race and Nationality are WHOLLY different, and don't try to confuse *true* race from something like WoW with our social constructed race in the real world. As well, in WoW these are realistically more akin to species, not races, in the first place.

Point being, it's not at *all* like your example of the Chinese workers.

[Specialka]

That is not a bad example. It's a logical answer to a bad comparison.

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Again, you simply can't compare wow to real life. Why don't these people just understand that jesus christ.

Take Got for instance and the Night Watch lead by Jon. If Cersei would have besieged and ultimately killed all of Jon's relatives there, do you think he should have left his post in the night watch? Or lead the night watch against Cersei?

[plz delete account]

Again because I'm too lazy to type it myself

Seeing as the quote used was towards your example, I think we've established you have no argument and are just twisting the words of others for your own. This, to be honest, is worse than Jaylockposting.

[Moonrage]

Seeing as the quote used was towards your example, I think we've established you have no argument and are just twisting the words of others for your own. This, to be honest, is worse than Jaylockposting.

You just refuse to see that the comparison doesn't fly. Comparing wow races (which are effectively entirely different species from one another) to real life humans doesn't make sense.

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No.


No, it's proven that, just like any big group of people, they can be swayed by a charismatic leader feeding them lies.

You're just saying "the Horde was just following orders" in a fancy way. Point is that the Horde has a history of blindly following bloodthirsty Warchiefs. It's not "any big group of people" it's almost always the Horde.

Read what "retcon" means, please.

Can I get a source for said retcon please.

"Xenophobic" does not equal "paranoid."

No, it doesn't.

Assuming Sylvanas has sent spies to infiltrate certain organisations and factions is not paranoid. Especially after she lit Teldrassil on fire.

It does because it's a similar situation. You're advocating for all Horde races to be kicked out, regardless of affiliations. Do you also advocate for all Alliance races be removed from the Cenarion Circle as well, because of Fandral Staghelm?

No, because the Cenarion Circle was founded by the Night Elves, obviously they're not going to kick out their own race. And yes I am advocating for all Horde races to be kicked out. They've proven time and time again that they can't be trusted. Again, why take the risk?

[Danvash]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

You have to look at the context rather than just the races of the factions' members.

The Kirin Tor were neutral under Rhonin and Khadgar to fight the Lich King and Sargeras respectively. They realized they needed the Horde's help to defeat those powerful enemies.

The Argent Crusade invited the Horde in because the Horde has paladins and opposed the Lich King.

The Knights of the Silver Hand are still humans and dwarves. They allied with the Sunwalkers and Blood Knights to fight the Legion.

The Cenarian Circle is for druids of all races and genders. Night elf women couldn't be druids in lore until recently. We don't know if anyone has been kicked out due to the War of Thorns, but you'd think any druids who disavow the Horde's actions and say their only agenda is protecting the environment would still be allowed to stay. Tauren and troll druids aren't automatically guilty by association.

The Wardens don't allow anyone to join them. Maybe they should, considering their numbers are dwindling. They requested help from adventurers to defeat powerful enemies on the Broken Isles, and their only loyalty at the end of the day is to the night elf sentinels.

[Moonrage]

You have to look at the context rather than just the races of the factions' members.

The Kirin Tor were neutral under Rhonin and Khadgar to fight the Lich King and Sargeras respectively. They realized they needed the Horde's help to defeat those powerful enemies.

The Argent Crusade invited the Horde in because the Horde has paladins and opposed the Lich King.

I know, I just find it insulting as an Alliance player how these iconic Alliance factions are now open to the Horde. I know the answer to this question is 'Blizzard is too lazy to make Horde counterparts' but still.

The Knights of the Silver Hand are still humans and dwarves. They allied with the Sunwalkers and Blood Knights to fight the Legion.

The Cenarian Circle is for druids of all races and genders. Night elf women couldn't be druids in lore until recently. We don't know if anyone has been kicked out due to the War of Thorns, but you'd think any druids who disavow the Horde's actions and say their only agenda is protecting the environment would still be allowed to stay. Tauren and troll druids aren't automatically guilty by association.

Still, the logical thing to do would be to kick them out. How can Malfurion know these druids are loyal to him and not Sylvanas? Especially after she and her army raided Darkshore and completely destroyed Teldrassil. Where was Hamuul Runetotem when Sylvanas burned down Teldrassil? Doing absolutly jackall.

The Wardens don't allow anyone to join them. Maybe they should, considering their numbers are dwindling. They requested help from adventurers to defeat powerful enemies on the Broken Isles, and their only loyalty at the end of the day is to the night elf sentinels.

The Wardens are probably too proud to let other races join them, which is rather fitting to be honest.

[Ghostile]

Why would anyone with a brain think "Hey, we got this group that is fighting battles much larger than the faction war, but fuck the members of the other faction, who needs a massive number of soldiers anyway?"

[Mardux]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

Kirin Tor - Because luckily the kirin tor isn't a dictatorship run by jaina. Their purpose is to defend azeroth, not defend the current alliance. Yes, they were part of the OG alliance of lordaeron, but the Alliance of Lordaeron is gone for various reasons up to and including Menethil taxing the alliance in order to keep the alliance slave camps running.

Argent Dawn - AD was never part of the alliance. They were independent from creation until their merger with the remnants of the Silver hand and like the kirin tor, their purpose was defending azeroth.

Silver hand - Stopped being alliance when arthas labeled uther a traitor and uther (with the backing of Terenas) suspended the order. They split up becoming either death lords or Scarlet crusade (are you sure you want those guys to be alliance :/ )

Cenarion Circle - Was *never* alliance. They were created to fight the Worgen.

Wardens - They were not alliance. Maiev was alliance at one point, sure, but she was always more loyal to her ideals than to the alliance. When Malf chose to imprison his brother instead of executing him, she volunteered to keep guard over him, creating the watchers and taking up the title of Warden. She gave other watchers the title of warden eventually. When jarod ghosted, maiev and the other wardens were essentially cut off from the world for a long long while. Eventually she went on a mission and when she got back to find illidan gone and the watchers dead, she found out that it was Tyrande's doing. So really... its more surprising that the watchers still work with the Alliance.

[The Butt Witch]

Kirin Tor - Because luckily the kirin tor isn't a dictatorship run by jaina. Their purpose is to defend azeroth, not defend the current alliance. Yes, they were part of the OG alliance of lordaeron, but the Alliance of Lordaeron is gone for various reasons up to and including Menethil taxing the alliance in order to keep the alliance slave camps running.

Argent Dawn - AD was never part of the alliance. They were independent from creation until their merger with the remnants of the Silver hand and like the kirin tor, their purpose was defending azeroth.

Silver hand - Stopped being alliance when arthas labeled uther a traitor and uther (with the backing of Terenas) suspended the order. They split up becoming either death lords or Scarlet crusade (are you sure you want those guys to be alliance :/ )

Cenarion Circle - Was *never* alliance. They were created to fight the Worgen.

Wardens - They were not alliance. Maiev was alliance at one point, sure, but she was always more loyal to her ideals than to the alliance. When Malf chose to imprison his brother instead of executing him, she volunteered to keep guard over him, creating the watchers and taking up the title of Warden. She gave other watchers the title of warden eventually. When jarod ghosted, maiev and the other wardens were essentially cut off from the world for a long long while. Eventually she went on a mission and when she got back to find illidan gone and the watchers dead, she found out that it was Tyrande's doing. So really... its more surprising that the watchers still work with the Alliance.

Nonsense.

These factions are mostly made up of people who fought the Horde at one point or another.

It's absolutely stupid that they would welcome their former enemies into their fold.

[Mirishka]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

Because they have a clue and understand that it takes the strength/cooperation of both factions to deal with shit like Arthas, N'zoth, etc.

Derp.

[Moonrage]

Kirin Tor - Because luckily the kirin tor isn't a dictatorship run by jaina. Their purpose is to defend azeroth, not defend the current alliance. Yes, they were part of the OG alliance of lordaeron, but the Alliance of Lordaeron is gone for various reasons up to and including Menethil taxing the alliance in order to keep the alliance slave camps running.

That's what I was talking about. Dalaran was an Alliance kingdom and now it's neutral. This is exactly what's bothering me. I don't really see the point in mentioning the slave camps (which were more like internment camps anyway).

And yeah we know Horde players don't like Jaina, but maybe try to see things from her perspective

Argent Dawn - AD was never part of the alliance. They were independent from creation until their merger with the remnants of the Silver hand and like the kirin tor, their purpose was defending azeroth.

Again, up unitl recently their members were exclusively humans. It's not far fetched to assume they held some loyalty to the Alliance.

Silver hand - Stopped being alliance when arthas labeled uther a traitor and uther (with the backing of Terenas) suspended the order. They split up becoming either death lords or Scarlet crusade (are you sure you want those guys to be alliance :/ )

They still exist as of Legion.

Cenarion Circle - Was *never* alliance. They were created to fight the Worgen.

I've literally mentioned that but alright. The point is that it makes no sense for Night Elves, one of the most xenophobic races on Azeroth, to allow in other races, let alone Horde races.

Makes even less sense to let them stay after Teldrassil was burned down.

Wardens - They were not alliance. Maiev was alliance at one point, sure, but she was always more loyal to her ideals than to the alliance. When Malf chose to imprison his brother instead of executing him, she volunteered to keep guard over him, creating the watchers and taking up the title of Warden. She gave other watchers the title of warden eventually. When jarod ghosted, maiev and the other wardens were essentially cut off from the world for a long long while. Eventually she went on a mission and when she got back to find illidan gone and the watchers dead, she found out that it was Tyrande's doing. So really... its more surprising that the watchers still work with the Alliance.

Maiev and Tyrande have set their differences aside it seems, especially after the blood war.

[Ielenia]

Race and Nationality are WHOLLY different, and don't try to confuse *true* race from something like WoW with our social constructed race in the real world.

I'm not. You are. I simply used China as example not because of "race", but because of them being a different group with different ideologies. Race never came into the equation.

You were the one who ignored the point altogether and immediately zero'ed in on "race".

[Rozz]

Race and Nationality are WHOLLY different, and don't try to confuse *true* race from something like WoW with our social constructed race in the real world. As well, in WoW these are realistically more akin to species, not races, in the first place.

Point being, it's not at *all* like your example of the Chinese workers.

Actually both examples work under different arguments.

Ielenia is stating that it would not make sense for the factions to reject those solely loyal to them, because their mother nation went on the offensive.

Buttwitch is saying that it makes total sense to reject those that collectively seek your destruction, especially when they feign innocence after they harmed you.

The difference is that the first is about the lore perspective (reasons given) and the latter is about execution and game play(what we actually saw).

On that note, limit your irl examples to not distract from the actual topic.

[shadowmatrix]

Why does the Alliance instantly forgive the atrocities the Horde caused while blindly following their murderous leader? Because the Devs...

The same reason the Justice League hasn't cleaned up Gotham City which is full of some of the weakest threats in DC comics, because the plot says so.

[matrix123mko]

Horde attacked the Kirin Tor, both in Classic and Cataclysm - see Ambermill and the Dalaran Crater.

Sure, I forgot about Sylvanas.

They are not, per Danuser on twitter few days ago.

I think in last interview there was something about Calia convincing them to return to Alliance.