How the European Union may not survive the Coronavirus

[CostinR]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...navirus-crisis

Backed by France, Spain and seven other eurozone countries, Italy wants a “European recovery bond” or “coronabonds” – namely, EU-backed debt to lift member states out of a recession and increase spending on healthcare.

But the idea of shared debt remains anathema to Germany, Austria and the Netherlands, who shunned the similar concept of “eurobonds” during the eurozone crisis a few years earlier.

Basically the leaders of the countries most affected by the crisis + France want to have strong measures to handle the massive economic damage as a result of the coronavirus while Germany, The Netherlands and Austria have so far refused to support that.

[Crispin]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...navirus-crisis



Basically the leaders of the countries most affected by the crisis + France want to have strong measures to handle the massive economic damage as a result of the coronavirus while Germany, The Netherlands and Austria have so far refused to support that.

Well they are well within their rights to disagree. It's extremely rare that you have a situation in the EU, where all countries are in sync off the bat, they'll negotiate and end up with a compromise, which is basicly how the EU works.

If it's the lack of solidarity you're trying to point out, then I guess you missed the news, that Germany is taking patients from Italy and France.

[Benggaul]

There's not a single country who will go for a complete shutdown for that long of a period. The measures taken here are very similar to other European countries. Schools are closed, elderly care facilities are closed, pubs/restaurants are closed etc. On top of that alot of businesses decide to close on their own, take extra precautions etc. It isn't really all that different from other European countries. People seem to think that going on a full lockdown for 2 weeks will make the virus go away. It won't, the moment you lift the lockdown, it starts all over again. It might be necessary, but countries will not go in a full lockdown untill a vaccine is available.

The last part of your quote explains it very well "Immunity is an additional effect, which is built up very slowly over time. It helps, but it is not the objective of the approach — it's not a goal to infect as many people as possible.". So thanks for providing that quote which clearly says they do not embrace that plan, it's simply a side effect.

There's alot of uncertainty about what the aproach should be, different experts with different opinions. Sadly only time will tell whether or not it was the right aproach.

The lockdown isn't to "make the virus go away". It's to give the healthcare system room to breathe and treat the patients they have. When the lockdown is lifted of course there will be more cases, but then there will be room to treat them. This really should be a series of lockdowns. 2-3 weeks on, 2-3 weeks off until the bulk of the population has passed through the system.

Guaranteed that there will be a shortage of beds and equipment within the next few weeks without a proper lockdown if things continue as they have been, because while a person can do the right thing, you can NOT trust "people" to do so. People don't wash their hands. People don't stop touching their face. People don't properly cover their mouths when they cough and don't stay away from other people. And as I've been observing the past few weeks, people definitely aren't letting the bars and restaurants closing keep them from gathering in large groups and drinking--despite the government threatening fines for doing so. From my window now I can see 6 cases of empty bottles on the balcony of an apartment across the street from a party they had last night that had at least a dozen or so people.

It's going to spread and it's going to get much, much worse. I HOPE not too bad for the hospitals to handle...but I fear that will absolutely be the case.

[Noradin]

I get it you're keeping your eyes and ears shut.

can you link a few german sources for your claim?
i can only find austrian ones purporting it.

[Mayhem]

can you link a few german sources for your claim?
i can only find austrian ones purporting it.

Not really, it's just a good amount of random comments from people all over the internet. It's not like they are actually trying to import our chancellor. ^^ I had to listen to about 10 germans on teamspeak talking about our chancellor as if he was some kind of divine being doing the right thing every time. Also, most positive comments on twitter whenever his social media team produces something seems to come from germans.

[d00mGuArD]

All 3 baltic states were oppressed and colonized for centuries and all 3 of them got independence and became developed nations in under 30 years. They still bear the scars of Russian colonization that cause some problems, but that didn't keep them back from becoming modern, developed nations.

Ireland likewise was a complete backwater of a nation when they finally broke free of British colonial rule after 800 years. They're now one of the highest development nations in the world. Pretty consistently up there just behind Nordic countries.

Yes, England, France, Turkey, and the US really fucked over the Middle East, but they've had nearly as long as Ireland had and 3 times as long as the Baltic states had to pull their shit together.

At a certain point it just starts to feel like we're letting them slide because we don't think they can do any better.

What are you doing mate? You are not blaming the evil west enough in your post.
Your facts will be dismissed.

[Fuiking]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...navirus-crisis



Basically the leaders of the countries most affected by the crisis + France want to have strong measures to handle the massive economic damage as a result of the coronavirus while Germany, The Netherlands and Austria have so far refused to support that.

I like the idea behind Coronabonds... But the netherlands shot it down.. how to become the most vilified country in the EU? Like that.

[Acidbaron]

I like the idea behind Coronabonds... But the netherlands shot it down.. how to become the most vilified country in the EU? Like that.

What was their concern to reject that notion?

EU bonds is also nothing new, it was proposed after the greek tragedy to stabilize the EU zone and the euro.

[Fuiking]

What was their concern to reject that notion?

EU bonds is also nothing new, it was proposed after the greek tragedy to stabilize the EU zone and the euro.

Austerity.. probaly... You know the dutch inflexibility

[Morgarw]

Everyone was equally unprepared for this specific scenario. The only major difference is that countries like Italy had poor existing infrastructure and lots of traveler traffic. Combine the two with the lack of China-esque authoritarian measures and a different demographic (China had more cases but more of them were younger and thus less likely to die) and you get a messy disaster where the spread of Covid-19 wasn't stopped in time and the place is scrambling to keep up. It's not really the EU's fault that Italy is notoriously unable to keep the country running anywhere near smoothly.

You have no idea in what you are talking about. Italy has one of the best healthcare in the world in fact the life expectancy is one of the highest in the world.

[d00mGuArD]

What was their concern to reject that notion?

Why wouldn't they. They are the competition, why would they help the competition. They will benefit immensely if some EU countries spiral down.
So who cares if it is the right thing to do. Money talks.

France, Italy and Spain the EU's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th economies are united in this, the people of Italy and Spain are already very very angry with lack of help from the EU.

For the first time, I start to think the title of this thread is not wrong.
If I was Italian or Spanish and my countrymen where dying by the hundreds and EU does not help I would say the same "These guys are not our friends, it is time to leave" , and for the first time, I can't blame them.

[Acidbaron]

Why wouldn't they. They are the competition, why would they help the competition. They will benefit immensely if some EU countries spiral down.
So who cares if it is the right thing to do. Money talks.

France, Italy and Spain the EU's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th economies are united in this, the people of Italy and Spain are already very very angry with lack of help from the EU.

For the first time, I start to think the title of this thread is not wrong.
If I was Italian or Spanish and my countrymen where dying by the hundreds and EU does not help I would say the same "These guys are not our friends, it is time to leave" , and for the first time, I can't blame them.

Germany is not opposed to EU bonds, it was even Merkel that came up with the idea. I believe you are letting your bias write your theories about current day events.

[tromage2]

This crisis will not only destroy the EU but will get us into ww3.

[Acidbaron]

This crisis will not only destroy the EU but will get us into ww3.

Go to be you're drunk, lol.

[d00mGuArD]

Germany is not opposed to EU bonds, it was even Merkel that came up with the idea. I believe you are letting your bias write your theories about current day events.

Since September 8 2011, German constitution court has ruled that there can be no sharing of debt (european bonds like the ones we are talking about)
They are not only opposed, it is their constitutional law to oppose it.

I believe you are letting your bias write your theories.

[Acidbaron]

Since September 8 2011, German constitution court has ruled that there can be no sharing of debt (european bonds like the ones we are talking about)
They are not only opposed, it is their constitutional law to oppose it.

I believe you are letting your bias write your theories.

I am not aware of German law, but i would imagine she is.

https://www.investing.com/news/econo...-virus-2113442

(Bloomberg) -- German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she’s ready to consider joint debt issuance to help contain the impact of the coronavirus, an opening that could transform the finances of the European Union.

The idea was raised by Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte on a video conference between the 27 EU leaders on Tuesday, according to a person familiar with the matter. Merkel said she was happy for her finance chief, Olaf Scholz, to explore the proposal with other ministers.

Joint EU debt issuance remained a taboo for Germany even at the height of the financial crisis after 2008, so the fact that Merkel is prepared to engage in the discussion is a sign of how concerned leaders are at the recession they are facing and the havoc it may wreak on the finances of some of the weaker members.

“We expect the finance ministers to discuss further on this level,” Merkel said. “I’ll talk to Olaf Scholz so that the German side can take part in this. But there are no conclusions.”

As EU governments unleash unprecedented amounts of fiscal stimulus to keep their companies alive through the lockdown, leaders are trying to work out how they can finance the sudden burst of spending without reviving the market turbulence that threatened to tear their currency union apart less than a decade ago.

Something similar also happened during the financial crisis but as the article correctly states it was more taboo back then, Germany was also the biggest proponent to aid Greece and even put forward debt relief plans if Greece did their part.

Germany is often written off as the boogeyman in these stories with very little basis to it, i believe this comes from certain groups who to this day state the EU and the euro is only there to help the germans.

[d00mGuArD]

I am not aware of German law, but i would imagine she is.

https://www.investing.com/news/econo...-virus-2113442

(Bloomberg) -- German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she’s ready to consider joint debt issuance to help contain the impact of the coronavirus, an opening that could transform the finances of the European Union.

The idea was raised by Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte on a video conference between the 27 EU leaders on Tuesday, according to a person familiar with the matter. Merkel said she was happy for her finance chief, Olaf Scholz, to explore the proposal with other ministers.

Joint EU debt issuance remained a taboo for Germany even at the height of the financial crisis after 2008, so the fact that Merkel is prepared to engage in the discussion is a sign of how concerned leaders are at the recession they are facing and the havoc it may wreak on the finances of some of the weaker members.

“We expect the finance ministers to discuss further on this level,” Merkel said. “I’ll talk to Olaf Scholz so that the German side can take part in this. But there are no conclusions.”

As EU governments unleash unprecedented amounts of fiscal stimulus to keep their companies alive through the lockdown, leaders are trying to work out how they can finance the sudden burst of spending without reviving the market turbulence that threatened to tear their currency union apart less than a decade ago.

Something similar also happened during the financial crisis but as the article correctly states it was more taboo back then, Germany was also the biggest proponent to aid Greece and even put forward debt relief plans if Greece did their part.

Germany is often written off as the boogeyman in these stories with very little basis to it, i believe this comes from certain groups who to this day state the EU and the euro is only there to help the germans.

In the press they say yes, in actual vote they say no.
Only the actual vote matters, not the words and lies of politicians to the masses.
It happened already yesterday. There is no point arguing about it. The vote is cast already and it was NO.

In 10 days the EU is expected to propose a new draft to the leaders of the countries.
We will see what happens then, maybe help will be approved, maybe not.

In my opinion if help is rejected towards italy and spain, there is no way these guys will stay.
This will make or brake europe in my opinion.

[Acidbaron]

In the press they say yes, in actual vote they say no.
Only the actual vote matters, not the words and lies of politicians to the masses.
It happened already yesterday. There is no point arguing about it. The vote is cast already and it was NO.

In 10 days the EU is expected to propose a new draft to the leaders of the countries.
We will see what happens then, maybe help will be approved, maybe not.

In my opinion if help is rejected towards italy and spain, there is no way these guys will stay.
This will make or brake europe in my opinion.

Them leaving the EU in time of need is not a realistic outcome. I mean i could go in greater detail as to how and why there is no clear answer to it all but nationalism and own nation first isn't the root cause of this.

The power bloc's in the EU got broken up in the last election, so you are also dealing with that. We'll see how they vote and the reasoning behind is important since we should not look at this as an all or nothing game.

[Gaidax]

In my opinion if help is rejected towards italy and spain, there is no way these guys will stay.

Chances are they will stay, they are fucked for many years to come and I don't think Quitaly or whatever fancy word for Spain will be their top priority this decade.

There will be, however, a lot of bad blood and you can expect governments of these countries will soon become filled with euroskeptics, which in my opinion is fair really, given EU's impotence when it comes to any sort of crisis.

[Grimbold21]

What is this joint debt issuance business?