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  1. #21
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    There are ways to stop them or protect others from their choices. It just involves taking away freedoms that some people feel are more important.
    There are ways but you would need a nazi esc world order for that and that’s not realistically gonna happen and even then there would be secret hold outs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Just because something doesn't currently work that way doesn't mean it can't or won't ever. Just because it's impractical to go 100% that direction doesn't invalidate the idea that it should be maximized as much as possible.
    Unlimited or maximized freedom is an anarchist pipe dream. No one really wants a society like that and when ever there is one someone rises up to put limits in place which is almost always preferred by every one.

  2. #22
    Although IDD with some of the sentiment in the OP's statement (objection to quackery, wildlife markets etc.), one does not simply tell the Chinese that their traditional medicine "has to go".

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  4. #24
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Although IDD with some of the sentiment in the OP's statement (objection to quackery, wildlife markets etc.), one does not simply tell the Chinese that their traditional medicine "has to go".
    1) It isn't traditional, it is a 1950s Communist Party initiative that is still promoted by the party, as has been linked many times here.
    2) It has dire effects on the entire planet, as this pandemic has most recently demonstrated in the most dramatic possible way
    3) The specifics of what needs to go has been clearly defined. Their government needs to be held responsible for promoting this, and must immediately move to shut down the wildlife trade.

    I am aware that the entire system cannot be dismantled overnight. It doesn't need to be. Any illegal wildlife trade will not operate at the same scales, with far less animals in a confined space, and in contact with far fewer humans. Belief in TCM will not instantly die, but when the government stops legitimizing it, and uses their control of the Chinese education system to start teaching modern anatomy and biology, rather then concepts like "Qi" and "Five Elements", then TCM can move more into the realm of fringe quackery like Flat Earthers and Crystal Healing. The damage it can do there is severely limited, and stops being a matter of international concern.

    What has to end is the industrial scale, government promoted, mass animal abusing "Wet Markets" that bring millions of people into daily contact with hundreds of thousands of sick and abused animals.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  5. #25
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    There are ways but you would need a nazi esc world order for that and that’s not realistically gonna happen and even then there would be secret hold outs.
    Well sure. If we went 100% in one direction. But I do think there are middle grounds.

    For instance you may have the right to not vaccinate your child but then you don't have a right to have that vaccinated child attend a public school, for instance.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Man you libertarians really just have zero empathy huh?
    I have plenty of empathy, but there are a few things empathy doesn't entail:

    1) Just because I know something is sad or am personally saddened by something doesn't mean I want or have a deep burning need to do something or have something done about it. I'm perfectly fine accepting sadness as it is without any further action in a lot of cases.

    2) Just because I personally would do something about a situation if I had the strength does't mean I'd expect someone else to do it. Thus, I also have no desire to enshrine my personal morals as law and remove other's ability to disagree with me under threat of punishment. I'm not so arrogant that I NEED everyone to live how I live or I think the world is broken.

    -snip-
    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-03-23 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Forbidden Topics

  7. #27
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    *snip*
    Maybe next time you try posting about how you actually have empathy you maybe...I dunno...display some rather than go on a transphobic rant?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Maybe next time you try posting about how you actually have empathy you maybe...I dunno...display some rather than go on a transphobic rant?
    Lol. "Transphobic." K.

    TIL not being attracted to someone is the same thing as being prejudice against them or hating them because of their transgender status.

    I show plenty of empathy throughout my daily life. I'd go on a rant about that, but all it would be is virtue signaling and all it would result in is you saying "well it's STILL not good enough!"

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    1) It isn't traditional
    Sure, I'm aware of this, that was just poor grammar on my part. The quotation marks should have encompassed "traditional" as well as "has to go".

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    What has to end is the industrial scale, government promoted, mass animal abusing "Wet Markets" that bring millions of people into daily contact with hundreds of thousands of sick and abused animals.
    This is where you need to be careful, though. As far as I understand it, there is nothing wrong with "wet markets" per se. "Wildlife regulation" is an entirely separate issue.

    https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2...na-wet-markets

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Sure, I'm aware of this, that was just poor grammar on my part. The quotation marks should have encompassed "traditional" as well as "has to go".



    This is where you need to be careful, though. As far as I understand it, there is nothing wrong with "wet markets" per se. "Wildlife regulation" is an entirely separate issue.

    https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2...na-wet-markets
    That is a fair point. I should have been clear I am referring to the live animal markets, which are often co-located with the fresh meat markets. There is nothing wrong with fresh meat and produce, there is something very wrong with having a cage of wild lemurs sitting on top of a cage of leopards right next to the lettuce and tomatoes. Obviously the markets themselves do not have to go away.

    Interestingly, the chinese government has already sort of addressed these issues, but in a bizarrely specific and reactionary way. After the Avian flu, they banned live birds (But didn't enforce it strictly, but it did get rid of a lot of them), after swine flu they made the pigs get moved into a specific area of the market. Each time they address only the specific animal that caused the last epidemic, rather then addressing the larger issue.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  11. #31
    Frankly shitty hygienic standards and health practices even when it comes to food markets is not some sort of China-only... "challenges".

    I would not be surprised if there would be a finding that half the population of Earth literally shits where it eats. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Same goes for various shitty tribal medicines or medicines pushed by religious quacks, sometime pretty abhorrent too - like this whole Albino thing in Africa. Even first world countries are not protected from this shit, like that colloidal silver bullshit being pushed even in US, of all things.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Man you libertarians really just have zero empathy huh?
    The greatest weakness of Libertarians beyond actual logic and reasoning, has always been the inability to deal with a crisis.

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    As for chinese medicine, somethings related to herbal medicine has been present in testing a cure for this coronavirus.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Frankly shitty hygienic standards and health practices even when it comes to food markets is not some sort of China-only... "challenges".

    I would not be surprised if there would be a finding that half the population of Earth literally shits where it eats. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    What are you saying? I think its perfectly acceptable for a lettuce farm to be downstream from a cattle farm. What's the worst that can happen?

  14. #34
    Regardless of What the CCP pushed, TCM existed long before them and in places not governed by CCP. There are practices that don’t involve using animal parts, or ingesting anything at all like cupping or acupuncture.

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Regardless of What the CCP pushed, TCM existed long before them and in places not governed by CCP. There are practices that don’t involve using animal parts, or ingesting anything at all like cupping or acupuncture.
    Sort of. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) all capitalized, is an invention of the CCP, who created and named it. The source material for that project was traditional medicinal practices that included some of the same elements, but was far less standardized, and differed wildly based on locale and culture.

    Basically think of it like Dungeons and Dragons. The setting, monsters, characters, and locations are all the licensed trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, and they are a distinct and well organized collection of information that is formed into a cohesive whole. But almost none of it is original to D&D. Vampires, Wizards, Dragons, and all of that all came from a vast, ancient, and poorly documented mythology that is often wildly contradictory to itself. These versions of things are not copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast, because they are a part of cultural mythology.

    Same thing with TCM. It is a creation of the Chinese Communist Party, who created it, markets it, and exploits it. Nothing it is particularly original, but it is this particular application of it that is so damaging. The more traditional sorts of these practices occurred in small villages that didn't have the resources to bring in animals from outside of their local area, and didn't expose more then a few dozen people to the animals. However modern TCM brings animals in from all over the world, and exposes millions to it, because the Chinese government insists on promoting the swollen gall bladders of live bears as medicine.

    I don't really have a problem with all the traditional healing techniques from China. I think they are mostly quackery, but harmless enough. I have a problem with the industrialized, cohesive, state-sponsored version of quackery.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I think that they should be regulated as with everything involving superstition and faith it will be impossible to abolish them entirely. If they were banned they would be driven underground and represent a bigger threat to global health properly taxing, regulating them for health and slowly killing them is properly the best bet. The question would be how much of the Chinese government believes in that stuff because they would fight against it.
    But until the Chinese government does take action, all exports of animal products from China should be banned, globally.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  17. #37
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Don't misunderstand me, but can one disassociate people from their practices?

    If certain groups of Chinese people within certain regions of the country have a habit or culture of eating exotic animals that were known - at least in the scientific circles - to be carriers of viruses, then what?

    Sure, you can trash the government, but isn't it the same as trashing some Americans that insist on being outside in groups and dismissing it as another flu?
    Well I mean, the chinese government CAN make it illegal.

    If they're able to shut down their country for months on end and interrupt the livelihoods of millions to deal with a situation the government themselves let get so out of hand, I'm sure they could swing shutting down these exotic animal markets that provide a fundamental service to no one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    There are ways to stop them or protect others from their choices. It just involves taking away freedoms that some people feel are more important.
    I don't personally feel that the ability to buy severely mistreated endangered species poached from their habitats to eat is an "inalienable freedom."
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But until the Chinese government does take action, all exports of animal products from China should be banned, globally.
    Do you want to start a trade war over this? not going to happen especially considering the state of the global economy.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Do you want to start a trade war over this?
    Frankly it's a much better reason than why Trump started any of his various trade wars (that are still ongoing despite being "good and easy to win").

  20. #40
    To paraphrase a quote about the Holy Roman Empire - it isn't traditional, it isn't Chinese and it isn't medicine.

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