Sylvanas Character Assassination

[Soon-TM]

You seemed to have no problem with the previous Forsaken leader, who also had "big tits", so I'm sure you'll welcome Calia too eventually.

Nah, Sylvie had big tits in TFT, but in wow they kept shrinking for quite some time. Then they grew back... Guess she managed to scavenge a new pair over there. But even at her prime, Sylvie was simply no contender for Calia in that regard LOL.

[Varodoc]

Nah, Sylvie had big tits in TFT, but in wow they kept shrinking for quite some time. Then they grew back... Guess she managed to scavenge a new pair over there. But even at her prime, Sylvie was simply no contender for Calia in that regard LOL.

Or hear me out can we not judge a character based on the size of her tits?

[Soon-TM]

Or hear me out can we not judge a character based on the size of her tits?

You must be real fun at parties, my dude(tte)

[Dimmak]

Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.


Is anyone else really pissed about this??

I am not at all. She's been a villain for a very long time now. We just had a common enemy that allowed us to work with her. Even then she had a habit of throwing her allies under the bus. I mean have we forgotten Wrathgate? You know where she "didn't" order the use of a modified plague on her allies just to catch Arthus. It was proven she knew about the faction working on it, it's not like she doesn't have a low level psychic connection with her people that allows them to fight off the lich king's control.

If you look back at every expansion she's always done something villainous it's just that her actions were not as noticeable as the others going on. She was over shadowed by Garrosh and others. Then Vol'jin pulled a maneuver you would never expect, he forced her into leadership where she could get exposed. It was a terrible gamble but it revealed her for what she was even if he was tricked.

[Varodoc]

You must be real fun at parties, my dude(tte)

It's dude, and if making jokes about the size of someone's tits is funny for you then you musn't go to many parties. But I'll stop here since this is very off-topic.

Suffice to say that they already said Calia is not joining the Horde.

[omeomorfismo]

Or hear me out can we not judge a character based on the size of her tits?

but poor @Dartz1979 =(

[Soon-TM]

I am not at all. She's been a villain for a very long time now. We just had a common enemy that allowed us to work with her. Even then she had a habit of throwing her allies under the bus. I mean have we forgotten Wrathgate? You know where she "didn't" order the use of a modified plague on her allies just to catch Arthus. It was proven she knew about the faction working on it, it's not like she doesn't have a low level psychic connection with her people that allows them to fight off the lich king's control.

If you look back at every expansion she's always done something villainous it's just that her actions were not as noticeable as the others going on. She was over shadowed by Garrosh and others. Then Vol'jin pulled a maneuver you would never expect, he forced her into leadership where she could get exposed. It was a terrible gamble but it revealed her for what she was even if he was tricked.

That's all fine and dandy (except the Wrathgate part) but getting practically everyone to hate you, as Sylvie has done after Cata, and especially during BfA, doesn't really make a lot of sense for someone who's afraid to die for good.

[Necromind]

@Darth-Piekus

Now the question is. How are the Forsaken as a race and players gonna move from now on since their identity is changing?

They won't. After serving their part in GRAND PLAN of BFA, at best they will get their half-assed story along with Nelfs and will be left at that until Blizzard feels the need to use some new characters. And Forsaken half assed story will be either they form a new leadership and remain exactly the same lawful-evil military but without Sylvanas or finaly proclam their identity as LORDAERON CITIZENS above being Forsaken and make truce with Calia or something.

There is no way Blizzard actually will go away from their established archetype even with retcons, people, even those who don't really follow the lore still want to play undead zombies.

Granted, Blizzard, even with Metzen, didn't really knew what to do with forsaken after LK defeat. They just sat there, being a massive horde army in Northern EK, figthing alliance, conquering territory and doing some questionable experiments, presumably.
But at least by not developing Forsaken Blizzard didn't write themselves into a corner. Because even before Afrasiabi and pals, Blizzard mainly wrote Humans as Alliance and Orcs as Horde, while other races were support cast around that.

[themaelstorm]

Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

Is anyone else really pissed about this??

It's not actual textbook anything, stop with the buzzwords.

It's actually the other way around: She has ALWAYS been a villain. BUT, if you look at things from a villain's perspective, they will always have their reasons.
Have you ever clicked her or heard her on warcraft 3? "We are the Forsaken, we will slaughter anyone who stands in our way." If this isn't villainous, I don't know what is.

And no, not everyone who knows they'll face something bad does extreme things. Some people commit crimes and go to jail, even confess, others simply try to run, others get into even bigger messes.

You keep saying she did things for no reasons - I reckon you haven't read anything since last Blizzcon. She is doing exactly what you said in the start: Avoid "death". She found a way, that way included a lot of deaths, so that's what she went for.

I mean, manipulating people into death has been her game from the beginning anyway. Don't take my word for it - play the first Forsaken mission in W3.

She's at times an anti-villain or anti-hero, but that's because she's NOT single dimensioned and shallow.

Oh by the way - she succeeded.

There is depth. There is nuance. There is tact.

THAT SAID.
This is mmochamp and I don't know why I even bothered to write this.

[Necromind]

There is depth. There is nuance. There is tact.

You are giving quite a trust credit to SL. That they will explain BfA Sylvanas there.
And Tact? I'm sorry to say, but there is no tact. They just grab characters and make them do stuff that serves whatever main narrative they need, screw any continuity or consequences that might create.
That's how we get traitor Baine, Sadfang, destroyed forsaken lore, Teldrassil burned "Because we need to do war"

[bigbleach]

I am a sylvanas loyalist, or semi fanboy, but I don't really do any bullshit or make excuses for her. She now, is pretty much an evil force. Period. I don't really know of any way you could swing it to make her not. The only thing I could maybe think of... is that she ultimately is going to betray the jailer to become the aspect of death and remove the curse of undeath somehow? Restore those afflicted? But I do not see that happening. That would be dumb. However, lets go on to the reasoning behind her actions and why she isnt a victim. The entire point of this war was to cause as much death as possible. How many do you think died in ashenvale? Then in darkshore? Then in the tree? A lot. Both sides. Then the rest of the war, where she did everything possible to cause as much death as possible, even betraying us after we fulfilled our purpose in her eyes. She did all of this for a power gain. We had never seen her do the wraith thing before the BFA opening cinematic. I think that power gain came from the burning of the tree and the war up until that point. The next, when she was able to stand toe to toe physically with a veteran orc warrior, able to parry his attacks to a halt with a freaking dagger, toy with him, then death kamehameha magic to finish him off. Remember, she has been trapping all those who die in the maw, and seemingly so, is gaining power from that or more power is being granted from the Jailer. By the point she killed saurfang, she had already achieved enough power to enter the shadowlands, she makes short work of bolvar not terribly long afterwards, who cannot be as strong Arthas due to lacking frostmourn and pieces of the armor, and takes the helm away from him. Since she was exposed, doing this will lead to even more death due to the undead swarm that will likely try to wash over the planet because there isn't a helm of domination to keep them in check, which will just feed her more souls, and the event of N'zoths awakening which will cause more and more death before she even goes to icecrown. Sylvanas's character wasn't assassinated, imho, she has never been more interesting. She is trying to avoid the eternal hell that awaits her due to her being cursed with undeath. She won't go to the shadowlands in the sense that Kael, or even the other villians we have slain that we meet this coming expac. She is undead and it is implied they do not get an afterlife if raised. I think it is covered in her short story when she kills herself. It is speculation that it was a vision from Yog, but I don't know whether or not it can be proven cannon. She may be trying to end the curse of undeath. I think undead go to the maw, a place of torture, a place for the damned and the worst. The jailer may be imprisoned there? And feeding him more anima could set him free? Maybe he can stop death all together and death not even be a thing? Idk, just speculation there.

TLDR: Sylvanas fanboy here. Bitch is evil. End of story. But its okay, I still love her lol. There isn't a reason to try and play her as a victim. She used the horde and the forsaken as arrows in a quiver and discarded them once they served her no more purpose. This has always been her character.

[Varodoc]

^ Why can't all Sylvanas fanboys be like this.

[Aucald]

TLDR: Sylvanas fanboy here. Bitch is evil. End of story. But its okay, I still love her lol. There isn't a reason to try and play her as a victim. She used the horde and the forsaken as arrows in a quiver and discarded them once they served her no more purpose. This has always been her character.

I wish you more luck trying to get this across than I had saying pretty much the same thing.

[omeomorfismo]

I am a sylvanas loyalist, or semi fanboy, but I don't really do any bullshit or make excuses for her. She now, is pretty much an evil force. Period. I don't really know of any way you could swing it to make her not. The only thing I could maybe think of... is that she ultimately is going to betray the jailer to become the aspect of death and remove the curse of undeath somehow? Restore those afflicted? But I do not see that happening. That would be dumb. However, lets go on to the reasoning behind her actions and why she isnt a victim. The entire point of this war was to cause as much death as possible. How many do you think died in ashenvale? Then in darkshore? Then in the tree? A lot. Both sides. Then the rest of the war, where she did everything possible to cause as much death as possible, even betraying us after we fulfilled our purpose in her eyes. She did all of this for a power gain. We had never seen her do the wraith thing before the BFA opening cinematic. I think that power gain came from the burning of the tree and the war up until that point. The next, when she was able to stand toe to toe physically with a veteran orc warrior, able to parry his attacks to a halt with a freaking dagger, toy with him, then death kamehameha magic to finish him off. Remember, she has been trapping all those who die in the maw, and seemingly so, is gaining power from that or more power is being granted from the Jailer. By the point she killed saurfang, she had already achieved enough power to enter the shadowlands, she makes short work of bolvar not terribly long afterwards, who cannot be as strong Arthas due to lacking frostmourn and pieces of the armor, and takes the helm away from him. Since she was exposed, doing this will lead to even more death due to the undead swarm that will likely try to wash over the planet because there isn't a helm of domination to keep them in check, which will just feed her more souls, and the event of N'zoths awakening which will cause more and more death before she even goes to icecrown. Sylvanas's character wasn't assassinated, imho, she has never been more interesting. She is trying to avoid the eternal hell that awaits her due to her being cursed with undeath. She won't go to the shadowlands in the sense that Kael, or even the other villians we have slain that we meet this coming expac. She is undead and it is implied they do not get an afterlife if raised. I think it is covered in her short story when she kills herself. It is speculation that it was a vision from Yog, but I don't know whether or not it can be proven cannon. She may be trying to end the curse of undeath. I think undead go to the maw, a place of torture, a place for the damned and the worst. The jailer may be imprisoned there? And feeding him more anima could set him free? Maybe he can stop death all together and death not even be a thing? Idk, just speculation there.

TLDR: Sylvanas fanboy here. Bitch is evil. End of story. But its okay, I still love her lol. There isn't a reason to try and play her as a victim. She used the horde and the forsaken as arrows in a quiver and discarded them once they served her no more purpose. This has always been her character.

i mean this could be convisible if she discarded all the forsaken, instead we have her with most of the dark rangers (and probably tons of normal forsakens) and even sent one of them to us with the only reason to give us a speech where she pity specifically weak forsaken (that in game are only voss and the desolate council). it doesnt make any sense.
i mean, when a playable loyalist forsaken had ever clinged to life and hope? when we even had any problem with suicide mission before? why i even would have problem with massacres if that is what forsakens do since w3?

[Raisei]

i mean this could be convisible if she discarded all the forsaken, instead we have her with most of the dark rangers (and probably tons of normal forsakens) and even sent one of them to us with the only reason to give us a speech where she pity specifically weak forsaken (that in game are only voss and the desolate council). it doesnt make any sense.
i mean, when a playable loyalist forsaken had ever clinged to life and hope? when we even had any problem with suicide mission before? why i even would have problem with massacres if that is what forsakens do since w3?

1) Not sure where you see those tons of Forsaken still with her. She left you behind, because you are now useless to her. Her new Jailor super powers makes keeping meat shields around unnecessary (or she has these new Val'kyr for that). It is cute how you make yourself believe she did not include you in her pity though. Cute, but pointless. She did.

2) Naz'jatar was not even a Suicide Mission. Those have a purpose that is so important that makes loss of life acceptable. Here Sylvanas specifically ordered Azshara to murder you and the other Hordes to do away with the witness of her releasing N'zoth. You were a glorified delivery boy that was never to return.

3) The point is that despite your wishes to be a "sick sociopath" your character is not in the eyes of the game (despite some outliers in the Forsaken quests), because none of the games storylines make sense if you are a monster yourself. Your character would probably have joined the Legion, not beaten it, your character would never ever be chosen by Azeroth to wear her heart. Magni would never call you "Champion" and so on.
Even the Loyalist storyline is not written to make you a vile monster. You are "loyal to the end", "blind for the truth" but not a villain. And your loyalty is met with disdain from your Dark Lady who could not care less about you, but feels like telling you to your face at least. She has been complaining about manners after all.
After this cinematic you are on your own. Well you and the few NPCs who also wrongly assume their continued loyalty will get them a special place when she starts murdering the planet. You are of course free to complain about this some more, but that is the reality. She dumped you, no matter how much you claim to be a villain equal to her, you are nothing, just like the rest of the Horde.
I fully expect that one of the first things happening in SLs is her getting rid of Nathanos as well, he is just as useless too her as the Forsaken are.

[Kallisto]

The writers are deliberately making Sylvanas a villain and Sylvanas loyalists are still ignoring that, saying the writers are wrong?
Who is right then? The writers of your fan fictions?
That's a really twisted definition of "Lore"

Also, even if, by any chance, Blizzard decided to redeem Sylvanas as a character with some ultimate goal that saves Azeroth and the universe let me tell you:
That will be the worst plot twist in the history of plot twists, the writing must be so bad and low level fan fiction tier to do that, that the Warcraft Lore, or what is left of it at this point, dies immediately a quick and painless death.
At least you fan fiction loving Sylvanas fanbois would be happy.

The problem here is that two pieces of lore contradict. We're told in one part she never cared for anyone but herself. In another part we're told outside her cold exterior she actually did care fore the forsaken and Sin'dorei. To the point her own internal monologues can only work if she has deadpool level of powers of knowledge in being a fictional character breaking the 4th wall to fool the reader.

- - - Updated - - -

if anything, at least threads are entertaining.

it all started with Sylvanas is morally grey and then Burning of Teldrassil.

man those threads were FIRE xd

It was never sylvanas was morally grey. It was if you take all the good and evil in the world it would look grey.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll keep on saying this over and over again but since Tyrande would never harm the Blood Elves and she has no reason to hate them (she even risked her life to save them), it's pretty implied that Fandral was the one who sent the Shalandis spies. Fandral forced the Blood Elves to the Horde.

Where is this implied? No where. Nothing in night elf community gets done without her sayso. Kaldorei are THE matriacle society. Fandral didn't have that authority.

- - - Updated - - -

Just be glad this isn't stellaris

I am never kind to humans there either ;P


Doesn't come even close to the broken toasters in my opinion. Humans are just roundabout garbage.

I'll be honest in my Stellaris games Sol III tends to always be a radiated wasteland so no humans to conquer.

[Ardenaso]

Where is this implied? No where. Nothing in night elf community gets done without her sayso.didn't have that authority.

Ahh yes, let's just attack these elves who were still reeling on the Scourge attack even though their High Elf brethren aided us in Mount Hyjal and I have no actual reasons to hate them

[Tarba]

Ahh yes, let's just attack these elves who were still reeling on the Scourge attack even though their High Elf brethren aided us in Mount Hyjal and I have no actual reasons to hate them

Replace scourge with legion and you have the night elves in the alliance.
When Thrall and Jaina started the world war which just ended.

[omeomorfismo]

1) Not sure where you see those tons of Forsaken still with her. She left you behind, because you are now useless to her. Her new Jailor super powers makes keeping meat shields around unnecessary (or she has these new Val'kyr for that). It is cute how you make yourself believe she did not include you in her pity though. Cute, but pointless. She did.

2) Naz'jatar was not even a Suicide Mission. Those have a purpose that is so important that makes loss of life acceptable. Here Sylvanas specifically ordered Azshara to murder you and the other Hordes to do away with the witness of her releasing N'zoth. You were a glorified delivery boy that was never to return.

3) The point is that despite your wishes to be a "sick sociopath" your character is not in the eyes of the game (despite some outliers in the Forsaken quests), because none of the games storylines make sense if you are a monster yourself. Your character would probably have joined the Legion, not beaten it, your character would never ever be chosen by Azeroth to wear her heart. Magni would never call you "Champion" and so on.
Even the Loyalist storyline is not written to make you a vile monster. You are "loyal to the end", "blind for the truth" but not a villain. And your loyalty is met with disdain from your Dark Lady who could not care less about you, but feels like telling you to your face at least. She has been complaining about manners after all.
After this cinematic you are on your own. Well you and the few NPCs who also wrongly assume their continued loyalty will get them a special place when she starts murdering the planet. You are of course free to complain about this some more, but that is the reality. She dumped you, no matter how much you claim to be a villain equal to her, you are nothing, just like the rest of the Horde.
I fully expect that one of the first things happening in SLs is her getting rid of Nathanos as well, he is just as useless too her as the Forsaken are.

i mean, the main bulk of dark rangers its still with her and i doubt that someone like calia could accept the apothecaries and deathstalkers (assuming that they wont be purged) if blizz wants maintain a minimum of consistency., then there are the loyalist npcs still free, that ok, we dont know if they still are tied with sylvanas or what.

in fact it doesnt make any sense that forsakens (or even dks) receive the necklace from magni. the main war strategy is defiling the environment to make it uninhabitable for the living (and forsaken players contribuited to it multiple times), why i should help to heal the planet? i took it as blizz for the umpteenth time ignored the undeads players, so basically not canon (i mean, im pretty sure that magni even call you living in some of the texts)
and loyalist not a "villain"? i mean. in the last quest you beat down eitrigg and lash him, then you go to kill the traitors and allies outside orgrimmar's walls. ok, thats was the only good thing of the entire questline, but really, the fact that sylvanas dont want us is basically blizz being like an annoying kid that take his ball because he is losing.

[Raisei]

i mean, the main bulk of dark rangers its still with her and i doubt that someone like calia could accept the apothecaries and deathstalkers (assuming that they wont be purged) if blizz wants maintain a minimum of consistency., then there are the loyalist npcs still free, that ok, we dont know if they still are tied with sylvanas or what.

I very much doubt that she is taking anyone. The reason she is on Icecrown alone is because she left everyone behind. The Apothecaries will either change their ways or indeed be killed. They only still live because Sylvanas protected them from their deserved end. That is over now.

in fact it doesnt make any sense that forsakens (or even dks) receive the necklace from magni. the main war strategy is defiling the environment to make it uninhabitable for the living (and forsaken players contribuited to it multiple times), why i should help to heal the planet? i took it as blizz for the umpteenth time ignored the undeads players, so basically not canon (i mean, im pretty sure that magni even call you living in some of the texts)
and loyalist not a "villain"? i mean. in the last quest you beat down eitrigg and lash him, then you go to kill the traitors and allies outside orgrimmar's walls. ok, thats was the only good thing of the entire questline, but really, the fact that sylvanas dont want us is basically blizz being like an annoying kid that take his ball because he is losing.

My point exactly. The Forsaken should never have been playable. They make no sense in any of the storylines, unless of course we do assume the PC Forsaken is one of those that seeks redemption and does not just want to go on a murder spree.

The Loyalists however do still work without being villains themselves. They were fanatically loyal, like cult members, doing whatever Sylvanas wanted and believing all her lies. That does not make them evil, it just makes them stupid and easily manipulated.