Anyone else nervous how classes are gonna feel at Shadowlands launch?

[MrLachyG]

I know that blizz is at least going to do some work on classes for shadowlands... And I know there is this new talent tree tied to the covenants.. but is anyone actually worried that our classes once again are gonna feel terrible? Class design has not been one of BFA's strong suits... but now with all these systems on top of each other (double ring azerite traits, essence system, corruptions), many specs actually play as fast if not faster than what they did in Legion, even if a bit uninspired. But again, all these things that kept BFA gameplay afloat are going to be ripped away, just like the Legion artifacts.

So do you share this same concern? Or do you believe blizz has already addressed this internally, and will make sure that gameplay won't feel as sluggish during BFA launch.

I mean we will have to wait til the beta to see what they add back in, we only know some of the returning abilities. personally, I like the fact that stuff changes each expac. makes it feel fresh and different. as for the power loss, yeah that will hurt but as long as the mobs in shadowlands are scaled appropriately then it's a non issue.

[Bryan Adam]

Snipped

Not really, but here's how it is going to work:

- We will all lose power, starting off weak again.
- We must rebuild our power through killing the bosses and looting gears.
- We must start investing in our "new" rental talent system to regain our power.
- Deck out with gems, enchants and special effects.
- Rinse and Repeat.

[Garymorilix]

I know that blizz is at least going to do some work on classes for shadowlands... And I know there is this new talent tree tied to the covenants.. but is anyone actually worried that our classes once again are gonna feel terrible? Class design has not been one of BFA's strong suits... but now with all these systems on top of each other (double ring azerite traits, essence system, corruptions), many specs actually play as fast if not faster than what they did in Legion, even if a bit uninspired. But again, all these things that kept BFA gameplay afloat are going to be ripped away, just like the Legion artifacts.

So do you share this same concern? Or do you believe blizz has already addressed this internally, and will make sure that gameplay won't feel as sluggish during BFA launch.

It's nice that you typed this out but your post has no meaning until you provide an actual PoV on what it is you don't like.

What class are you playing? What spec? What makes it feel so terrible? In what content?

I did the mage tower in legion with 9 classes (all specs on those). Missed shaman, priest and warlock (didnt have them at max level at that time).
In BfA I play rogue (all 3 specs), guardian and resto druid, WW and BM monk, Disc priest, all 3 DK specs and a little arms/fury warrior. Only leveled the rest.
This is my context on classes.

Now given these, I feel like BfA majorly improved on classes.
I hated specs being built around their artifact weapon ability in legion (khm Outlaw) but in BfA they are so smooth to play.
Ever since they introduced the double ring on Azerite gear classes are flying high. Most traits majorly influence your gameplay and you just take it for granted (Between the Eyes build or Glimmer paladins).

The problem is that people like you have no idea what you do not like so you just spew buzz-words like "classes feel terrible" that mean nothing in themselves.
I personally do not like the breath build for Frost DK's with their buff timer setups because I am not that good at runic power management. So I preferef Unholy.
Give us a detailed example of what you do not like, look at its core and try to either find something else or improve in it.

Saying shit like "I think balance druid sucks" means nothing. Maybe you do not enjoy a spec because its playstyle is different from your playstyle.
If you like big instant aoe burst classes you will not play an Affli Warlock. and so on.

So unless you provide context on "classes feel terrible" this argument just cannot be considered valid in any form.

[Nyel]

Well, we've played the transition from 115 -> 116 and that's been the worst so I am prepared for everything. It can't be worse than that.

[Powerogue]

Oh extremely. They patched my outlaw rogue who was bleeding to death up with essences, and now they'll take away that and azerite armor? He'll be as unplayable as he was at launch. It sounds like the new covenant abilities aren't even DPS, but utility based instead, which would do nothing for my rogue who had all of his burst DPS ripped from him.

It's not just the expansion cycle. My fire mage, monk, and paladin made it into BFA unscathed, and my BM hunter was even improved!

[Nathasil]

I would not say hitting a button and having 3 random gear-proccs which are exactly the same for any spec of the ame role makes my spec play better....it may make the game play better, sure, but not my spec.

I think Blizzard is intentionally moving away from Spec/Class spells/tuning/balancing and instead going for generic gear proccs/use abilities that are the same for everybody because it means far less work for them.

[Ludvig]

I don't know if I'd say nervous, but it is the deal breaker for me regarding Shadowlands. If the classes don't feel good in beta/pre-patch, I won't be buying the new expansion for the first time. BfA went too far with the poor class design choices and I won't have it again.

[Eurhetemec]

I don't know if I'd say nervous, but it is the deal breaker for me regarding Shadowlands. If the classes don't feel good in beta/pre-patch, I won't be buying the new expansion for the first time. BfA went too far with the poor class design choices and I won't have it again.

If you think BfA was the problem, you don't understand the problem.

Legion was the problem. BfA largely improved on Legion's design. The issue was the Legion shifted so much stuff on to artifact, that when they were gone, even though BfA 8.0 had better gameplay than Legion 7.0 for the classes/specs, it wasn't enough, because everyone was coming off of Legion 7.3, with maxed-out artifact weapons and tons of legendaries. Losing those was what made people think it sucked (see, for example, Nyel's post about level 115 to level 116 being the worst, that's when Legiondaries stopped working).

But BfA's class design, GCD stuff notwithstanding, was an improvement on Legion.

The question here is two-fold:

1) Will people going from 8.3, with maxed-out Azerite procs/buffs, Essences, and Corruptions, to 9.0, with just class abilities again (some unpruned, but just class abilities - no Azerite procs/buffs, no Essence abilities/procs/buffs, and no Corruption procs/buffs), feel okay or will it make some people really rage?

2) Will the actual class design changes and unpruning from 8.3 to 9.0 improve the classes?

I strongly suspect they will keep improving the classes, but a lot of people will be so enraged that they no longer have three sources of procs/buffs and an extra ability that they'll be completely blind to this and angrily and cluelessly suggest that "UR CLASS DESIN SUX BLIZZ". That said the unpruning might help with these poor misguided souls a bit.

[VinceVega]

I know that blizz is at least going to do some work on classes for shadowlands... And I know there is this new talent tree tied to the covenants.. but is anyone actually worried that our classes once again are gonna feel terrible? Class design has not been one of BFA's strong suits... but now with all these systems on top of each other (double ring azerite traits, essence system, corruptions), many specs actually play as fast if not faster than what they did in Legion, even if a bit uninspired. But again, all these things that kept BFA gameplay afloat are going to be ripped away, just like the Legion artifacts.

So do you share this same concern? Or do you believe blizz has already addressed this internally, and will make sure that gameplay won't feel as sluggish during BFA launch.

Well i like the power reset every new addon. Whipes teh plate clean and everyone is on one level again.

The inevitable feeling week is outweight (for me) by the exploration, new gear, new instances and other new system.
Also there is now forced raider.io for a few weeks. It just slows down the game for a while and does not force you to be at 100% like the moment Mythic+ and raids are back on.

[Gurahk]

Launch will be amazing because I'll be able to get rid of the corruption slow.

[spalernTJ]

Classes are going to feel absolutely horrible to play. Might as well get ready for it. Not only do our stats re-scale, we also lose our Azerite traits and essences. So until we grind out our new rental powers and get to... I guess second raid tier worth of stats, it's gonna be shit again.

[Byleth]

Classes are going to feel absolutely horrible to play. Might as well get ready for it. Not only do our stats re-scale, we also lose our Azerite traits and essences. So until we grind out our new rental powers and get to... I guess second raid tier worth of stats, it's gonna be shit again.

Pretty much this.... and it's nothing new.

[DechCJC]

All I want is for my spec to be my spec and to have minimal influence coming from random items that I have zero way of targeting.

Broken corruption pieces? I’d rather not, but if we have to then I want to at least be able to target them

That and for them to go back on GCDs for multiple abilities, primarily ones that buff throughout.

[Varolyn]

I guess I need to make it bit more clear that it isn't just about power rest. It's about losing all of these rental systems (again) and not getting enough back in return. Power reset does indeed happen every expansion, but you can't be honest and say that the transition from Legion to BFA was a good one class wise unless if you maybe played a survival hunter.

[Ludvig]

text

I know Legion is the problem, I didn't mean to indirectly praise it. 7.0 ruined the only specs I played: mm hunter and enhancement shaman. It's the reason I think WoD is better than Legion, despite Legion having much more (and better, imo) content. If you ask me, they should just revert everything regarding class design to a pre-legion state.

[Shinrael]

But some expacs at least gave us something to look forward too, such as new abilities or those perks from WoD. Hell even Legion had the artifact weapon itself that you built up. Though I suppose the Covenants is going to be the thing we build up?

And you will be getting not one artifact ability but TWO with the covenants. One utility/mobility and one DPS ability specific to your class. As a Frost Mage I can say that some of the Mage ones are really going to deepen the rotation quite a bit.

+ The unpruning. + Soulbinds + Legendaries.

I think we will be fine :P

[Niwes]

Dear mod,

if you close this thread, because there are already 10+ other threads discussing the same shit to death, you make my day and you will be my hero.

Best regards,
DJ-Sameshiteveryday

[Ronald The Mcdonald]

I'm nervous for the fact that history can repeat itself. This Alpha/Beta time period will really set the bar/mood for the entirety of the expansion just as BFA did before it. The Alpha/Beta cycle for BFA was pretty bad and rough so I'm just hoping Blizzard learns from their mistakes and honestly really look at player feedback and can really assess the playstyle of each class.

[kendro1200]

I'd like the think the unpruning they're gonna do will make up for it but I've learned not to really let myself have anymore expectations.

Their stance at Blizzcon was that they were only going to unprune situational abilities that did not impact minute to minute gameplay. So a single combat cooldown, situational ability used one fight out of every raid, etc. Blizzard really wants to be able to have a simple spreadsheet to map out combat rotations and stats. What is super odd is that despite how simplified they've made a lot of things, they've shown to be so horrible at simulating and predicting the performance of various specs from patch to patch, expansion to expansion. At this point they really just need to give up their mindset that they know better than the players in all things, because they've repeatedly proven that the community can prove them wrong. We need old guard Blizzard that actually put stuff out for testing and then listened to feedback and used it. The love and care that went into the MoP warlock rework in its alpha and beta needs to be done again, but for the whole game and the mindset that enables that kind of game design needs to be kept in Blizzard's culture.

Hopefully the first Friends and Family alpha for Shadowlands has gone horrible, and Blizzard is going back to the design board and is reconsidering their stance on what Shadowlands is actually going to be. To say their pitch at Blizzcon '19 was mediocre would be too generous. What was more like a slightly expanded 8.2 patch, than an actual expansion.

[Eurhetemec]

I know Legion is the problem, I didn't mean to indirectly praise it. 7.0 ruined the only specs I played: mm hunter and enhancement shaman. It's the reason I think WoD is better than Legion, despite Legion having much more (and better, imo) content. If you ask me, they should just revert everything regarding class design to a pre-legion state.

They can't really do that though, because the game isn't balanced around that, and they'd have to rework the entire game in exactly they way they're trying to avoid, and it would cause huge imbalanced and disruption. Even if we don't like BfA's balance, it's certainly better than balance was in WoD and MoP, especially between healers, and between tanks and I think even between DPS specs. Anything would be really bad, I think, and going back to WoD, even with the best intentions, would ensure terrible balance for a long time.

I think a better goal might be to look at WoD/MoP and see what they could learn from that and work instead on improving the BfA class design in that general direction.

- - - Updated - - -

We need old guard Blizzard that actually put stuff out for testing and then listened to feedback and used it. The love and care that went into the MoP warlock rework in its alpha and beta needs to be done again, but for the whole game and the mindset that enables that kind of game design needs to be kept in Blizzard's culture.

The Blizzard you posit here literally never existed. MoP's Warlock class may have been well-designed, but that's down to the people directly involved with that, not a general attitude you've made up and fantastically applied to an entire era. There's never been an era like you describe. It's a total fantasy. It's particularly silly in the context of MoP, where many specs were extremely underpowered and/or outright badly designed, and "the community" as you put it, told them so, and was roundly ignored, but you're still fantasizing that this imaginary "old guard" were "listening", because they were about a class or spec you care about. I might as well say Wrath was the best because DKs were fantastic for most of the expansion (even ridiculously OP initially).

Also, the criticism re: balance you're making is incredibly weak, because classes are demonstrably far closer together in performance now than they were then, especially tanks and healers. DPS-only-primary players just don't get how bad it is if a tank or healer spec is too weak. With a class with three DPS specs, if one or even two of the specs suck, the third one probably doesn't. You don't need to change class. You may not even need to re-gear much. If a tank or healer spec sucks, that's it, you're out. Either change role, or change class, and both of them are huge deal comparatively.

And MoP/WoD was terrible for that. Whereas Legion/BfA is pretty good for it - not perfect, but pretty good.