Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Yes, if he uses it while being frozen.
    I may be rusty on lore, but as far as I remember ice in no hard counter to light magic. Paladins are known for their protective spells, auras and freeing/empowering blessings - it makes perfect sense. You know what doesn't? Arthas managing to collect enough corpses for an unstoppable army on an uninhabited glacier.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    He literally spent the entire fucking fight being frozen in place not being able to do shit.
    In the Chronicles it is written that the Lich King froze Tyrion after a long struggle, so no, not the whole battle.

  3. #23
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    27,058
    We don't really know what the Light is - it's an energy, certainly, but it also demonstrates a degree of sentience. It can, depending on factors both known and inscrutable, choose to favor or abandon its users for the content of their actions. It seems to have a will, a memory, and some sort of agenda all its own, all factors that point to it being something more than just a wavelength of essence. Is it a literal god? Undeterminable from our perspective - it could certainly be incarnated in some greater form in the manner the Void is incarnated in the Void Lords, and a singular point of incarnation would make sense for the Light as compared to the myriad nature of the Void (one singular Truth vs. all possible Truths simultaneously).

    As for Tirion and the Lich King, we don't really know if the Light directly interceded in this fight or if Tirion was able to muster the will to manifest the Light to free him after seeing the heroes of the Ashen Verdict fall before Arthas' onslaught. "Chronicle Vol. 3" only says he "broke free" of the cask of ice in which he was imprisoned, making no mention of the device that freed him as shown in-game. Me, I'm of a mind that the power of the Light answered his prayer to it, and so accord it as an intervention of the Light directly. But that's just how I view the sequence of events, it is equally probable that Tirion was just finally able to manifest the Light's power using his own will, with the prayer just being a vehicle.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  4. #24
    I am Murloc! Zuben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    5,943
    I thought it was pretty clear what happened there at the Frozen Throne? A mortal paladin geared up on Light ("Dragonball HYAAAAAAH!!!") and cracked Frostmourne, which then released the souls bound to it, effectively stripping Arthas of power and keeping him in place so we could pummel him to submission. Why would anyone think Light as a god for that?
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Québec, Québec
    Posts
    3,858
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    We don't really know what the Light is - it's an energy, certainly, but it also demonstrates a degree of sentience. It can, depending on factors both known and inscrutable, choose to favor or abandon its users for the content of their actions. It seems to have a will, a memory, and some sort of agenda all its own, all factors that point to it being something more than just a wavelength of essence. Is it a literal god? Undeterminable from our perspective - it could certainly be incarnated in some greater form in the manner the Void is incarnated in the Void Lords, and a singular point of incarnation would make sense for the Light as compared to the myriad nature of the Void (one singular Truth vs. all possible Truths simultaneously).

    As for Tirion and the Lich King, we don't really know if the Light directly interceded in this fight or if Tirion was able to muster the will to manifest the Light to free him after seeing the heroes of the Ashen Verdict fall before Arthas' onslaught. "Chronicle Vol. 3" only says he "broke free" of the cask of ice in which he was imprisoned, making no mention of the device that freed him as shown in-game. Me, I'm of a mind that the power of the Light answered his prayer to it, and so accord it as an intervention of the Light directly. But that's just how I view the sequence of events, it is equally probable that Tirion was just finally able to manifest the Light's power using his own will, with the prayer just being a vehicle.
    That's more or less my point of view. Elune and the Light are probably right now the two greatest mysteries in Warcraft. The more recent informations we had about the Light were from their enemy's perspective. And as we know, both Light and Void understands only one half of reality. Still, let's suppose that the Light just wants the physical world to persist as it is, it would still be abhorrent to the Void. The physical world follows one set of rules. It follows gravity, there is a time flow, the elements act in certain way, etc. For beings who wants all truths to happen, it would look like a stagnant world. It would not be that far from what the Titans themselves want. Aman'thul gave its power over time to Nozdormu to protect Azeroth's timeline. I don't believe the Void Lords would appreciate that either.

    Also, we cannot use the Naaru to know the plans of the Light. The Naaru are of the Light, they are agents of the Light, but they are not the Light. They don't even seem to agree between them. The goals of A'dal and Xe'ra look quite contradictory. Therefore, there can be factions between them.

    The Light can be like the Force in Star Wars, which seems to have a will of its own, but no real personality. Maybe Elune is an incarnation of the Light? Who knows? One thing is certain: it is not this world's version of the Abrahamic God.

    N'zoth (or was it Il'gynoth?) said that the Light has made a pact with the enemy of all, which is most certainly Death. Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I have some hope we'll get some answers in the Shadowlands, both about the Light and Elune.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    What nonsense have I just read? I mean, Arthas fans are constantly trying to justify Arthas's defeat by the fact that the Light personally intervened and saved Tyrion, although this is complete nonsense. Tirion, PALADIN, used his strength and broke his fetters, even if he himself believed that the Light had done it. There is no divine intervention, there is no deity, only the paladin and his power. Otherwise, the actions of Malfurion are the divine intervention of Life, and the actions of Khadgar are the divine intervention of Arcane.
    You can't just ignore the argument made because you have personally decided it's not true.

    There is no argument to support your case. It's divine intervention regardless of if it's in universe, or if it's the gods in the machine(AKA, the people who wrote the story.)

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    That's more or less my point of view. Elune and the Light are probably right now the two greatest mysteries in Warcraft. The more recent informations we had about the Light were from their enemy's perspective. And as we know, both Light and Void understands only one half of reality. Still, let's suppose that the Light just wants the physical world to persist as it is, it would still be abhorrent to the Void. The physical world follows one set of rules. It follows gravity, there is a time flow, the elements act in certain way, etc. For beings who wants all truths to happen, it would look like a stagnant world. It would not be that far from what the Titans themselves want. Aman'thul gave its power over time to Nozdormu to protect Azeroth's timeline. I don't believe the Void Lords would appreciate that either.

    Also, we cannot use the Naaru to know the plans of the Light. The Naaru are of the Light, they are agents of the Light, but they are not the Light. They don't even seem to agree between them. The goals of A'dal and Xe'ra look quite contradictory. Therefore, there can be factions between them.

    The Light can be like the Force in Star Wars, which seems to have a will of its own, but no real personality. Maybe Elune is an incarnation of the Light? Who knows? One thing is certain: it is not this world's version of the Abrahamic God.

    N'zoth (or was it Il'gynoth?) said that the Light has made a pact with the enemy of all, which is most certainly Death. Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I have some hope we'll get some answers in the Shadowlands, both about the Light and Elune.
    That whisper is probably referring to Calia Menethil, since she's an undead who was raised by a naaru.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  8. #28
    Highlord Tirion Fordring yells: LIGHT GRANT ME ONE FINAL BLESSING! GIVE ME THE STRENGTH... TO SHATTER THESE BONDS!
    An arc of Light energy surrounds Tirion, shining and suffusing within the ice block and then after a few moments, smites it, freeing
    Tirion. He and the Ashbringer are glowing, emanating with the Light itself.

    Seems proof enough that The Light intervened.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    You can't just ignore the argument made because you have personally decided it's not true.

    There is no argument to support your case. It's divine intervention regardless of if it's in universe, or if it's the gods in the machine(AKA, the people who wrote the story.)
    Then any action of Malfurion is a divine intervention of Life and any action of Khadgar is a divine intervention of Arcane.
    If for you the paladin with the sword with the heart of Naaru, using the Light, is something unexpected and is a divine intervention, then I do not know that in Warcraft is not a divine intervention

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    That's more or less my point of view. Elune and the Light are probably right now the two greatest mysteries in Warcraft. The more recent informations we had about the Light were from their enemy's perspective. And as we know, both Light and Void understands only one half of reality. Still, let's suppose that the Light just wants the physical world to persist as it is, it would still be abhorrent to the Void. The physical world follows one set of rules. It follows gravity, there is a time flow, the elements act in certain way, etc. For beings who wants all truths to happen, it would look like a stagnant world. It would not be that far from what the Titans themselves want. Aman'thul gave its power over time to Nozdormu to protect Azeroth's timeline. I don't believe the Void Lords would appreciate that either.

    Also, we cannot use the Naaru to know the plans of the Light. The Naaru are of the Light, they are agents of the Light, but they are not the Light. They don't even seem to agree between them. The goals of A'dal and Xe'ra look quite contradictory. Therefore, there can be factions between them.

    The Light can be like the Force in Star Wars, which seems to have a will of its own, but no real personality. Maybe Elune is an incarnation of the Light? Who knows? One thing is certain: it is not this world's version of the Abrahamic God.

    N'zoth (or was it Il'gynoth?) said that the Light has made a pact with the enemy of all, which is most certainly Death. Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I have some hope we'll get some answers in the Shadowlands, both about the Light and Elune.
    Maybe you should stop listening to the things your enemies say.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    Highlord Tirion Fordring yells: LIGHT GRANT ME ONE FINAL BLESSING! GIVE ME THE STRENGTH... TO SHATTER THESE BONDS!
    An arc of Light energy surrounds Tirion, shining and suffusing within the ice block and then after a few moments, smites it, freeing
    Tirion. He and the Ashbringer are glowing, emanating with the Light itself.

    Seems proof enough that The Light intervened.
    Paladins believe in the Light. This does not mean that Light is a god. Tirion is a paladin and he can use the Light.

  12. #32
    The light intervened in the Lich King fight to help Tirion the same way it personally intervened in the Death Knight class quest to prevent the Death Knight from resurrecting him. The light itself literally stopped all the DKs in the order hall while all the paladins were down and out and couldn't do anything to stop the DKs.
    Last edited by Deathrange; 2020-03-29 at 04:11 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Then any action of Malfurion is a divine intervention of Life and any action of Khadgar is a divine intervention of Arcane.
    If for you the paladin with the sword with the heart of Naaru, using the Light, is something unexpected and is a divine intervention, then I do not know that in Warcraft is not a divine intervention
    It's okay that you think that. It's okay that I disagree with you. It is not, however, okay that you reply without reading what someone else has said.

    It's divine intervention. If it's not divine intervention in universe, it's divine intervention from the story writers that he was suddenly, magically, able to find the strength without some kind of in-universe divine intervention. Regardless which of those is true, it's still divine intervention.

    I shouldn't have to explain what a deus ex machina is, but you seem to be unusually obtuse. I am not here to validate your opinions. Me not validating your opinion does not give you an excuse to ignore what I've said, and yes, you did ask me for my opinion. You asked everyone on this forum for their opinion when you decided to make a topic. That is what a forum is.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathrange View Post
    The light intervened in the Lich King fight to help Tirion the same way it personally intervened in the Death Knight class quest to prevent the Death Knight from resurrecting him. Darion Mograine was scared by the light itself.
    If the Light intervenes so easily, why did he allow Benedict and the Scarlet Crusade to use his power? Why didn't he just kill the Lich King with some ray of Light? During this quest, they were the spirits of a pile of deceased paladins who were buried there.

  15. #35
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Detroit,Michigan,USA
    Posts
    5,589
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I noticed that every time it comes to the battle with Arthas, people start using this stupid argument about ''divine intervention'', ''deus ex machina'', ''divine miracle'' and so on.
    Enough. This is another dumb myth as avatars of the Old Gods or something like that.
    Light is not a god, Light is just a power. In most cases, it is necessary to use the Light correctly, but Benedict could use the Light only with the help of willpower, without faith (Chronicles). Also, if the Light is god, then why does it allow guys like the Scarlet Crusade use his power (I know that Elune also once allowed the Horde to use her power, but this is a completely different case)? If he is a god, why didn't he just destroy Arthas himself? Why did you have to wait and let so many innocents die?
    Nobody ever said the light is god, but the light is god to the inhabitants of Azeroth who worship the light. Only a few beings of Azeroth know that the light isn't god. Those who got the second hand story of the siege of Icecrown only know what they been told so in their eyes the light used Tirion to take Arthas out. Only light users know the truth about the light and about how the SC is still able to use the light even to commit acts of horror. They average day to day Joe/Jill of Azeroth don't know shit beyond what they been taught and to them it's a religion.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    It's okay that you think that. It's okay that I disagree with you. It is not, however, okay that you reply without reading what someone else has said.

    It's divine intervention. If it's not divine intervention in universe, it's divine intervention from the story writers that he was suddenly, magically, able to find the strength without some kind of in-universe divine intervention. Regardless which of those is true, it's still divine intervention.

    I shouldn't have to explain what a deus ex machina is, but you seem to be unusually obtuse. I am not here to validate your opinions. Me not validating your opinion does not give you an excuse to ignore what I've said, and yes, you did ask me for my opinion. You asked everyone on this forum for their opinion when you decided to make a topic. That is what a forum is.
    The divine intervention of the authors of the story. By your logic, all the victories of Arthas and the power that he received this divine intervention of the authors of history. Or does it only work so that Arthas seems cooler and more dangerous? And after that you still call me obtuse? Incredible hypocrisy

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    Nobody ever said the light is god, but the light is god to the inhabitants of Azeroth who worship the light. Only a few beings of Azeroth know that the light isn't god. Those who got the second hand story of the siege of Icecrown only know what they been told so in their eyes the light used Tirion to take Arthas out. Only light users know the truth about the light and about how the SC is still able to use the light even to commit acts of horror. They average day to day Joe/Jill of Azeroth don't know shit beyond what they been taught and to them it's a religion.
    Explain this to LK's fans who are trying to prove that Arthas was so dangerous that the Light personally intervened

  17. #37
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,041
    Since the OP left a reference link in their new thread, this will be closed to minimize redundancy.
    Moderator of the General Off-Topic, Politics, Lore, and RP Forums
    "If you have any concerns, let me know via PM. I'll do my best to assist you."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •