Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[NineSpine]

Im just trying to make a point. Everyone like me will probably get punished. Id say 99% chance.

But people keep comparing a class to an ability we pick from a list...

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You cant judge people for prioritizing gameplay over roleplay...you cant.

When you pick a class you are picking an aesthetic combined with a series of abilities and customization options.

When you pick a covenant you are picking an aesthetic combined with a series of abilities and customization options.

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This has pretty much always been the case with WoW though. At least since MoP all of the minor talent options were baked into specs as passives which reduced the choices to:
Spec->Talents->Glyphs->Gear/Stat distribution
But even in classic the differences between Rogue A and Rogue B are incredibly small and can be boiled down to the same things and even back then you could respec easily if you had the gold.

Respec costs skyrocket extremely quickly if you are going it daily, and gear didn't cross spec quite as easily back then. Racials also had greater impacts on gameplay.

[tyrlaan]

I’m one of the top Havoc DH’s in NA, I can almost guarantee you are a LFR raider. Go ahead and link your character if you’re not.

Grats and irrelevant. This is called "logical fallacy".

Also, I'm one of the top Unholy DK's in NA. I'm sure you believe me since I'm surely supposed to be believe you. See how that works?

Soulbinds won’t be as big of an issue and can be tweaked better as they are most likely small passive effects.

Cool, where did you get this information? Alternatively, do you have the power of seeing the future?

To balance mechanically imbalanced abilities they would need to shove the OP one so far in the dirt that it would just become useless afterwards. So in the case of “The Hunt” it would need an ridiculously long cool down or only provide 1-3 extra fury to not become dominant. In which case it’s not worth taking in any case, and has now become a dead ability which isn’t fun for anyone.

Because there's absolutely nothing in between OP and useless. Right.

So please, stfu unless you know what you’re talking about. These aren’t .5% dps increases. You probably can’t recall players losing raid spots, or not getting invited to groups because they didn’t have the BiS legandaries in the beginning of Legion. But the forums were flooded with them. So it was a very real problem, and it will be again if they don’t address it.

Please.

A) until you have fucking numbers you don't know the % dps increase.
B) more logical fallacies where you try to discredit the argument by discrediting the person
C) like legion legendaries can be remotely compared in any logical way to these covenant abilities WHICH HAVE NO NUMBERS
D) forums are not indicative of the actual playerbase, just the vocal minority (which happens to include the more hardcore playerbase that absolutely does min/mix for a 1% dps gain

I mean... unless you are really,really,really bad at the game I think by now the average player should be able to see a different between a movement and do more dmg ability...

I mean... unless you are really, really, really bad at the game I think by now the average player should be able to see that a movement ability might keep you alive to do more dps than a simply do more damage ability.

And what are you on about anyway? Literally every covenant class ability effects damage in a positive way. There is no simple "pick movement or pick damage" choice.

You cant judge people for prioritizing gameplay over roleplay...you cant.

This is absolutely true. The opposite is absolutely true as well.

Alas the people that prioritize gameplay at the expense of roleplay seem to be complaining a whole lot about the impact this will have on their roleplay. (without having any numbers mind you)

Here's an idea. Suck it up. Make a choice. If you want to min/max covenants, do it. If you want to pick the covenant you like the most, do that instead and accept the minor "hit" to your effectiveness.

People claim to want meaningful choice, but it seems like a lot of people whining don't actually want that. Because meaningful choice means there's a cost for making that choice. That you leave something behind. If there's no cost to the choice, it's not meaningful.

[Infernoxas]

How do they intend to balance this? The abilities have such HUGE differences that will result in one being far better than the other three. Did Ion not see this coming?

After the disaster of BfA class design, this has got me worried. Will Shadowlands also have massive issues with class design now?

I'm optimistic they'll figure something out. Anything is better than corruption at this point.

Reading over a handful of the abilities, it sounds like not one covenant will be ideal in all situations. Some are good for PvP. Some or M+. Some for raiding.

The only real one that concerns me is the Venthir signature teleport. Depending on how this works, it could be concerning for high-end M+ players. At least for some skip(s) that could save a few seconds.

I'm personally not too concerned with covenant abilities yet. We don't know their actual values and a handful of them are still in-work.

[Big Thanks]

The covenant doesn't just give you one ability. It gives you two, and soulbinds, and no matter how many times you insist on repeating this dumb as shit lie the reality won't change.

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So then prioritize it. Nobody is stopping you.

I just want Blizzard to offer us a "free covenant transfer" if they nerf heavily one ability.
You cant downplay the importance of this abilities.
They seem very important.

I know a covenant is not just the ability.

[Nnyco]

INB4 comments saying, "Got to wait for fine tuning and testing".

Look where that got us in BFA, nothing has changed since beta, we were given shitty azerite armor and horrible class design.

Don't get your hopes up, expect these "rental" abilities to be absolute shit. There will always be a bis ability and a go to for pvp.

What are you smoking? "Nothin has changed since beta", They added more azerite to help certain specs and they added essences on top of that.

[Aucald]

Nobody picks an ability from a list of abilities because they look pretty...no one.

I've narrowed down my pick of Covenants to Maldraxxus or Venthyr, because those are two story-arcs I'm most interest in moving forward in. I'll take the Covenant and Soulbind abilities that they end up giving me, unless the difference in power is so stark I literally can't perform optimally with another Convenant (which I sincerely hope doesn't prove the case). I'll eat a minor power loss with no real qualms, though; not if I get the experience I want for a given character.

[Big Thanks]

I've narrowed down my pick of Covenants to Maldraxxus or Venthyr, because those are two story-arcs I'm most interest in moving forward in. I'll take the Covenant and Soulbind abilities that they end up giving me, unless the difference in power is so stark I literally can't perform optimally with another Convenant (which I sincerely hope doesn't prove the case). I'll eat a minor power loss with no real qualms, though; not if I get the experience I want for a given character.

I had the same hopes as you for the covenant abilities
I thought, for some reason, they would offer minimal power.

But...by the early view they seem insane.

And because i am a "gameplay nerd" more than i am a "roleplay nerd"...i will go for the "utility/power/PvP gameplay one".

[NineSpine]

I just want Blizzard to offer us a "free covenant transfer" if they nerf heavily one ability.
You cant downplay the importance of this abilities.
They seem very important.

I know a covenant is not just the ability.

You are going to be fine. You'll live.

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I had the same hopes as you for the covenant abilities
I thought, for some reason, they would offer minimal power.

But...by the early view they seem insane.

And because i am a "gameplay nerd" more than i am a "roleplay nerd"...i will go for the "utility/power/PvP gameplay one".

What exactly is insane about them? They don't have numbers and they seem to be high cooldown abilities.

[Big Thanks]

You are going to be fine. You'll live.

First world problems

The same way i lived Snake Eyes nerf and Unbound chaos removal...i will be extremely pissed/sad/outraged.

[NineSpine]

First world problems

The same way i lived Snake Eyes nerf and Unbound chaos removal...i will be extremely pissed/sad/outraged.

These aren't spec-defining, rotation abilities. They are high cooldown, mostly part-utility abilities.

[Big Thanks]

What exactly is insane about them? They don't have numbers and they seem to be high cooldown abilities.

When you are a PvP'er...you understand "overpowered" when you see it

[NineSpine]

When you are a PvP'er...you understand "overpowered" when you see it

Where can I find your esports profile?

[Kathranis]

I'll take the Covenant and Soulbind abilities that they end up giving me, unless the difference in power is so stark I literally can't perform optimally with another Convenant (which I sincerely hope doesn't prove the case). I'll eat a minor power loss with no real qualms, though; not if I get the experience I want for a given character.

Same here. I'm looking at these like race selection: flavor first, gameplay secondary. Hopefully when taking into account both Soulbinds and active abilities, things even out and differences are negligible.

But this is the tradeoff that comes with difficult choices. Just like with the old talent trees, you can make choices that increase personalization at the expense of optimization, and if you choose optimization over flavor, that is a choice, too.

The majority of players don't min-max to the extent of picking a race, class, or even spec, and ideally Covenant choice will be at the same level.

[Lahis]

Nope, there's four options.

One of which will be the superior option.

[Big Thanks]

Nice one. Ofc it will be on the cash shop for 25 Euros :P

You just know somebody will claim this in all seriousness.....

And no..I don't see any "very important" ability...but maybe you can point us to one that totally outshines everything else.

Yeah...I asked that question before in response to another post...I am still waiting for a reply.

The Hunt for demon hunter.
Doesnt matter "how damamging it is"...it is a shadowstep, damaging immobilizing effect for demon hunter.

Brewmaster Monk has one increasing the damage.
If the rest are all survival options and this one is the only damage increase one...i will pick it.

The Necro "general" ability seems amazing for PvP random Bgs.
A shield of % health...that is better if someone is dead nearby.

[NineSpine]

One of which will be the superior option.

That's subjective. What's superior to you is not superior to me.

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The Hunt for demon hunter.
Doesnt matter "how damamging it is"...it is a shadowstep, damaging immobilizing effect for demon hunter.

Brewmaster Monk has one increasing the damage.
If the rest are all survival options and this one is the only damage increase one...i will pick it.

Monk only has one ability revealed.

You have no idea how much damage the other DH abilities do.

[Sinfelle]

Grats and irrelevant. This is called "logical fallacy".

Also, I'm one of the top Unholy DK's in NA. I'm sure you believe me since I'm surely supposed to be believe you. See how that works?



Cool, where did you get this information? Alternatively, do you have the power of seeing the future?



Because there's absolutely nothing in between OP and useless. Right.



Please.

A) until you have fucking numbers you don't know the % dps increase.
B) more logical fallacies where you try to discredit the argument by discrediting the person
C) like legion legendaries can be remotely compared in any logical way to these covenant abilities WHICH HAVE NO NUMBERS
D) forums are not indicative of the actual playerbase, just the vocal minority (which happens to include the more hardcore playerbase that absolutely does min/mix for a 1% dps gain




I mean... unless you are really, really, really bad at the game I think by now the average player should be able to see that a movement ability might keep you alive to do more dps than a simply do more damage ability.

And what are you on about anyway? Literally every covenant class ability effects damage in a positive way. There is no simple "pick movement or pick damage" choice.



This is absolutely true. The opposite is absolutely true as well.

Alas the people that prioritize gameplay at the expense of roleplay seem to be complaining a whole lot about the impact this will have on their roleplay. (without having any numbers mind you)

Here's an idea. Suck it up. Make a choice. If you want to min/max covenants, do it. If you want to pick the covenant you like the most, do that instead and accept the minor "hit" to your effectiveness.

People claim to want meaningful choice, but it seems like a lot of people whining don't actually want that. Because meaningful choice means there's a cost for making that choice. That you leave something behind. If there's no cost to the choice, it's not meaningful.

Except my character profiles have been linked here and yours haven’t. I write guides, you don’t.

So let’s put it in easier context for you to understand. I have a paper plane, and I have a fully loaded 747. I’m going to make both of them crash into you, which one hurts more? With your logic you have no idea because I haven’t given you the numbers.

Mechanical functions are different from numerical tuning.

[Big Thanks]

Monk only has one ability revealed

So they created a situation now where all the other options need to give damage...otherwise...

.
You have no idea how much damage the other DH abilities do.

Are you trying to say "The Hunt" can be crap for PvE? But how? This is a perfectly balanced system...

[NineSpine]

Except my character profiles have been linked here and yours haven’t. I write guides, you don’t.

So let’s put it in easier context for you to understand. I have a paper plane, and I have a fully loaded 747. I’m going to make both of them crash into you, which one hurts more? With your logic you have no idea because I haven’t given you the numbers.

Mechanical functions are different from numerical tuning.

Which two abilities are so radically different that they are the equivalent of a paper plane vs a real plane?

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So they created a situation now where all the other options need to give damage...otherwise...



Are you trying to say "The Hunt" can be crap for PvE? But how? This is a perfectly balanced system...

Balance is trash.

[Big Thanks]

Balance is trash.

Agreed.

My ONLY problem is Blizzard nerfs...plz gief "free Covenant transfers" (>_<)