Remove Borrowed power

[Thundering]

How many think it is better that we do not have borrowed power.

[Accendor]

I hate the borrowed power system

[Donald Hellscream]

I think borrowed power is alright, if they just keep giving us new permanent abilities they'd inevitably have to do another pruning and we all know how many rivers of angry forum tears flowed after the first round of ability pruning, Hell Blizzard is even unpruning some of it now. I am certain they want to minimize the need to prune stuff in the future and borrowed power from expansion to expansion is a way to do that.

[Aucald]

I don't really have an issue with borrowed or rental powers, as people have taken to calling them. As long as the alternative advancement system is fun to play and changes things up as concerns class/spec mechanics. My preferred system would be if the expansion had the same sort of borrowed/rental power we've seen since WoD, but that at the expansion's end we were granted perhaps a signature ability or two from the system to carry on with us into other adventures (aka other expansions). I know this often happens on a mechanical level in the next expansion's balance pass, but it would be cool to see it formalized in-game. Like with Legion, I thought it would be cool if as opposed to feeding our Artifact weapons to Gorribal we took in a portion of their power beforehand - permanently gaining the Artifact's signature active ability (and perhaps a passive or two) while losing everything else. Could do the same with the Heart of Azeroth and one of its signature class-based Essences, perhaps. Just a memento of the story-arc you can carry forward as a power advancement (maybe even bake it into a formalized Talent choice).

[owbu]

You can't just remove a system that fixes a problem. You have to first find a better solution to the problem.

In this case it's: If you keep adding stuff to something that works well it will go kaputt eventually.
Lending us powers and only baselining the stuff that worked well with the rest of the core class is a good way to fix that.

It's not perfect, because losing stuff sucks. But so far I haven't seen a better suggestion to fix the initial problem.

[Yarathir]

How many think it is better that we do not have borrowed power.

Of course a lot less borrowed power would be preferable.

But Blizzard isn't going to do away with systems like that. They're the easiest and most convenient type of recyclable treadmill. Artifact Power, Azerite Power, Anima.

[VinceVega]

How many think it is better that we do not have borrowed power.

MORE borrowed power! I like having a different play style every expansion.

Just imagine if they kept the way from BC. We would have gotten at least one big ability every expansion. Classes would be a travesty by now.

[Laughingjack]

I don't mind borrowed power systems so long as that power isn't tied to a pointless and long grind...

Go ahead with artifacts, azerite, and covenant talents but if I have to grind them for more then a hour in a entire expansion the system failed.

[Zero Wing]

You can't just remove a system that fixes a problem. You have to first find a better solution to the problem.

In this case it's: If you keep adding stuff to something that works well it will go kaputt eventually.
Lending us powers and only baselining the stuff that worked well with the rest of the core class is a good way to fix that.

It's not perfect, because losing stuff sucks. But so far I haven't seen a better suggestion to fix the initial problem.

I'm not saying it's a better suggestion, or even that I would necessarily like to see something like this, but one scheme might be that you could keep everything you've ever had (Rogue getting Swirly Ball back!) but then there is only a fixed number of things (keybinds?) you can use at the same time, mediated by some game system.

[huth]

I'm not saying it's a better suggestion, or even that I would necessarily like to see something like this, but one scheme might be that you could keep everything you've ever had (Rogue getting Swirly Ball back!) but then there is only a fixed number of things (keybinds?) you can use at the same time, mediated by some game system.

That would pretty much require a total re-design of the game now, though. Not a very realistic scenario.

[Thorbalt]

I don't mind borrowed power systems so long as that power isn't tied to a pointless and long grind...

Go ahead with artifacts, azerite, and covenant talents but if I have to grind them for more then a hour in a entire expansion the system failed.

Hello Kitty Island Adventure sounds like its more to your game style

[Laughingjack]

Hello Kitty Island Adventure sounds like its more to your game style

That or classic and tbc... are we playing that game were we pretend these systems didn't start in legion?

The casuals will take back the game from those who wish it to be Korean grind mmo.

[A Chozo]

No.

Add skills back to create a cool battle rotation and add the borrowed power, to make it even more complex.

[Jamie081]

I don't mind borrowed power, but don't make it themed around something that isn't my class e.g. Covenants, Essences, Corruption passives, Heart of Azeroth. I don't want to use abilities that have nothing to do with the class I play.

[Big Thanks]

Who invented the term borrowed power.
Thats what i want to know.

Absolute legend

It was probably a forum user.

(i hate this argument because 2 years playing with the borrowed power is more than enough in my book)

[Swnem]

Well... i don't disagree. Having rental power would not be so terrible if it didnt come at the cost of progression. In that point, i completely disagree with WoW devs and i think they see a numbers problem where they should see engagement and fun.

If the game sinks after this xpac, if it is as disappointing again, i wonder if their worries were ever founded? Such things happen when you plan for the long term while ignoring the short term.

[Thundering]

You can't just remove a system that fixes a problem. You have to first find a better solution to the problem.

In this case it's: If you keep adding stuff to something that works well it will go kaputt eventually.
Lending us powers and only baselining the stuff that worked well with the rest of the core class is a good way to fix that.

It's not perfect, because losing stuff sucks. But so far I haven't seen a better suggestion to fix the initial problem.

The problem is many classes are fully broken without the "borrowed" power and many are just boring to play without them. They are most of the time to powerfull to grindy and a even bigger issue you dont get used to them while lvling due to they can be added whenever. In worst case scenario you get them by rng luck (legion legendaries) and you can stay broken for a very long while.

Maybe once when the classes are good again they dont need to add more just maybe change what ingame already.

They never fixed anything with this just added a diffrent kind of issue.

No.

Add skills back to create a cool battle rotation and add the borrowed power, to make it even more complex.

this what i want 2

[tommyhil622]

I think the argument is also that if we going to lose it then don't introduce it. I do feel like no matter what they decide to label the power it feels the same grind. It's one of the negatives of Legion, BFA and possible now shadow lands. In BFA for example at least early on, i felt like if i didn't do dailies i would fall behind, where my heart of Azeroth was level 35 and others were 50+ or higher. I get progression but i feel like there has to be a better way of progressing. Maybe make it optional? or provide alternate ways of progressing. In Wotlk we didn't really have to deal with another leveling mechanic and its still regarded by many as the best expac only negative was the length of time we had to wait for the following expansion. Way back when blizzard said they were moving away from the dailies and having the feeling to be forced to do them, that hasn't changed. In some ways it's worse (in BFA). Thankfully they put in multiple routes of gaining said AP, but idk. Lastly what i do hope which is probably the best example of not to use "borrowed" powers is the corruptions. Never been a fan of it, i do like the extra content surrounding it but these abilities that are so random and over powered, sometimes would even blur upgrades (lower ilvl with good corruption out performing higher ilvl with no corruption was annoying). I think personally traditional gear is the way to go, and not lean so heavily on the extra powers that will go away anyway. And perhaps don't make them so strong or incorporate the powers into talents instead of the new version of AP. Idk

[Sunderella]

Yeah I hate it too. It has absolutely no sense to be reinventing the wheel each single expansion for the sake of it.

If blizz don't want classes having like a bazillion skills, instead of inventing new systems each expansion just keep adding new skills and talents as they used to with each expansion. Organize them on different pools: offensive cd, defensive cd, rotational skill, utility skill or whatever.

You give the player their usual core stuff by default, but then you let them choose 1 or 2 extra skills from each pool.

All problems solved. Devs don't have to reinvent the wheel stupidly each expansion, player can avoid stupid grinds just because and don't end with 200 skills on your bars.

[Caus]

I dont mind borrowed power as a concept. It adds variation and renewal on semiregular basis, and successful ideas tend to get implemented into the core classkit.

HOWEVER, i do not think its a healthy thing when the borrowed power constitute 50%+ of your output/performance. In comparison, i think Legion was a good approach, BFA not so much. Current state with corruption is a travesty.