2h Frost is back in Shadowlands!

[TrickNasty]

I mean they could just make runeforges half as effective on 1h weapons as opposed to 2h weapons. also make obliterate hit like a train while frost strike applies some form of “frostbitten” like debuff which makes physical damage hit harder or turns a portion of physical damage into frost damage. Idk.

[Lucrece]

Blizzard delivers and makes 2h the go-to for big obliterate burst. Smug naysayers get absolutely owned. Hope you don't have warmode on.

Considering Frost has been trash all of BfA, turn that warmode on, I'll fuck you up by the end of AotD's channel on unholy, or if I'm feeling lazy I'll 3 shot you on a fire mage or warlock instead.

That's a good point. I suppose if you just want to play frost DK and don't care which weapon style is more optimal, it looks like a positive. If you really want to use one or the other it feels like a negative because you'll be forced into one or the other regardless of your preference.

I don't have a preference so it feels to me more like an option to tailoring yourself more to single or multi target. If I had to choose I would just say scrap dual wield so the entire class can cohesively function around a two hander as the dual wield thing was a bit slapped on in Legion anyway and has never fit the fantasy of a death knight, thematically.

Will never happen. An entire set of artifact appearances was made for DW and they know if those got scrapped there would be a portion of DK's crying out to the heavens.

Not me, because I want to use Apocalypse with Death's Deliverance as frost, but Blizzard will simply not remove DW as ridiculous as DW is on the class and how it only lives because of some Thassarian meme. I'm pretty sure someone had a hard on for their Thassarian just as much as someone did for Nathanos and why he had plot armor till now.

[Saltysquidoon]

I don't have a preference so it feels to me more like an option to tailoring yourself more to single or multi target. If I had to choose I would just say scrap dual wield so the entire class can cohesively function around a two hander as the dual wield thing was a bit slapped on in Legion anyway and has never fit the fantasy of a death knight, thematically.

ToT has been a talent since day 1 of DK's being released and DW has been the optimal choice for frost from basically Cata to legion outside of maybe a patch and a half and early expansion PvP oblit memes.

I don't want to sound like a dick but at someone point, I have to question if people who say dw 'doesn't fit' actually main a dk.

[Vlaid]

ToT has been a talent since day 1 of DK's being released and DW has been the optimal choice for frost from basically Cata to legion outside of maybe a patch and a half and early expansion PvP oblit memes.

I don't want to sound like a dick but at someone point, I have to question if people who say dw 'doesn't fit' actually main a dk.

I didn't play DK that far back, but it felt a bit slapped on in Legion to me! I could be wrong, I don't main a DK and don't pretend to. I still care about my DK though

[Ange]

If it turns out true that dual wield is optimal for cleave and 2h for single target (or vice versa), there is a certain elegance to being able to adjust your power to different content through a weapon pick without having to adjust your talents.

With a pragmatic view, since there is no evidence from the past 2 expansions to see it otherwise, the stronger variant (DW) might again end up allready as the worse/sub 1/3 spec and the lesser variant (2h) will just sink into tank/heal performance and we had that, its called unviable.

Its not like frost DW will be the best spec by a margin and 2h might still be usable to compete with the worst DPS specs in the game, no it means it wont be viable for any kind of content appart from leveling.

[Hctaz]

Yea, situational PvP. In organized PvP and Organized PvE it's going to probably be trash since they are literally making the same mistakes again.

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Unfortunately yes. They can figure out how to balance 2H vs dw for other specs but somehow can't figure it out with Frost because they think there's nothing mechanically wrong with the spec. KM has been an issue forever and they refuse to acknowledge the problem....Part of fixing a problem is admitting there is one...and they just wont admit it.

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That's something I hope gets addressed because I dont want macros switching weapons for each ability.

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So much this, it's why im moving on from the class I feel. I can't stand seeing them make the same damn mistakes time and time again with this.

All of these things. The oddity I have with Killing Machine is it's design is just bad... Like I don't get why they refuse to change Frost DKs so that this spec works better.
Killing Machine being based on auto attacks isn't inherently bad. I'm sure they could change it to where the two specs have the same amount of KM procs in a number of ways.

I dislike Razorice. I think it should just be baseline, and it would make sense for it to be baseline. All of Frost DKs auto attacks should just deal additional frost damage and all attacks should apply Razorice the same as it works now. I'd also make it so that either only the mainhand weapon can have a runeforge or allow 2 hand to have two on the same weapon. I don't really think the bonus damage to Obliterate should exist.. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to create a situation where you might possibly need to macro weapon swaps mid fight so you can change weapons based on whether or not you're needing single target burst or AoE. Frost DK has enough downtime to where this could be the actual meta LOL. Or 2 hand might have to swap to another weapon with Razorice just to apply those stacks and then swap once every X seconds to prevent the stacks from falling off. Seems tedious and easily solved by a number of the solutions I've already mentioned.

The decision on whether or not to dual wield should just be a cosmetic choice and all other factors should be minimized by making the two playstyles as identical as humanly possible. It just makes sense.

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ToT has been a talent since day 1 of DK's being released and DW has been the optimal choice for frost from basically Cata to legion outside of maybe a patch and a half and early expansion PvP oblit memes.

I don't want to sound like a dick but at someone point, I have to question if people who say dw 'doesn't fit' actually main a dk.

I've mained a DK since they were released and dual wielding doesn't fit a DK at all ever.

They've always had the theme of wielding a big 2 handed weapon and cutting down their foes. It'd be the same reaction if they had a one hander and a shield. DKs just dont use that. Just because Blizzard gave them the option doesn't mean that it ever made sense or fit their flavor.

[kliffharry]

Keep in mind that both Obliteration and Pillar of Frost has been buffed since the last time 2H was playable. Both playstyles might be closer than people think. It looks to me on the beta right now that 2h Obliteration pulls quite far ahead on pure ST and obviously has the highest burst potential.

[Saltysquidoon]

EDIT: Actually on topic, the discord seems to think 2H is pretty competitive ST or even ahead (but this is low mastery), which makes sense given the focus of the buffs. But is absolutely dead on aoe and cleave (as it obviously would be).

You've got hand it to blizzard they're really going for those nostalgia subs, they've managed to exactly recreate the problems 2h had in cata.

I've mained a DK since they were released and dual wielding doesn't fit a DK at all ever.

They've always had the theme of wielding a big 2 handed weapon and cutting down their foes. It'd be the same reaction if they had a one hander and a shield. DKs just dont use that. Just because Blizzard gave them the option doesn't mean that it ever made sense or fit their flavor.

What exactly are you basing that off? Horde DK's were essentially liches and used staves, scourge DK's in WCIII were Arthas expies that used their runeblades one-handed.

Given that ToT has existed since day one, Thassarian exists to give the talent a name, the reforged DKs DW, Frost could only DW in legion and BFA and DW was almost always the stronger spec from cata to wod. Clearly someone at blizzard decided before the class was even released that DW does, in fact, fit frost.

[Hctaz]

What exactly are you basing that off? Horde DK's were essentially liches and used staves, scourge DK's in WCIII were Arthas expies that used their runeblades one-handed.

Given that ToT has existed since day one, Thassarian exists to give the talent a name, the reforged DKs DW, Frost could only DW in legion and BFA and DW was almost always the stronger spec from cata to wod. Clearly someone at blizzard decided before the class was even released that DW does, in fact, fit frost.

To the first point: Horde DKs are not the DKs i'm referring to at all. In regards to WCIII DKs: DKs before Wrath were depicted using two handed weapons but oftentimes swinging them around with one hand. That's sorta the point in showing off their might. Rivendare is an example of this in WoW. He swings a two handed runeblade around with one hand same as Arthas does. Also if you look at the concept art for Wrath DKs, ALL OF THEM ARE USING TWO HANDED WEAPONS.

As for your second claim: ToT did not exist from the beginning. Threat of Thassarian was put into Wrath in patch 3.2 which was when Trial of the Crusader was released. The only talent that DKs had that gave any benefit to Dual Wielding was the one at the very bottom which increased your chance to hit when dual wielding very slightly and, before patch 3.3.3, only provided a measly 15% increased damage to your offhand. That was it.

Dual wield Frost was an aftersight created so that they could introduce Titan's Grip to warriors without cutting down the number of classes that COULD dual wield. The only reason it became a thing associated with Frost was because players found it to be interesting dual wield TANKING with Frost. Dual wielding was only a viable option in the beginning of Wrath if you wanted to be a unique tank, but that was just because DK tanking was balanced similarly to how Classic Warriors were balanced. The base class just tanks really well. Dual wield tanking providing no benefit aside from being unique. The dual wielding talent itself wasn't even unique to Frost as you could get it on the second row of the talent tree. For some reason it just was more viable to dual wield tank if you were Frost than it was to try it with Blood or Unholy.

It only got worse in Cata when they introduced Strength based DPS weapons again. If you look up BiS guides from Wrath, you'll notice that Frost DKs were using agility weapons. One handed str weapons in Wrath were exclusively tanking weapons. https://wotlk.evowow.com/?items=2&fi...ty=15:13:0:4:7
This was to give more flexibility between what weapons were used with what class. In Cata, they decided that the weapon you want to use should have your main stat on it, and also decided that they did not want to get rid of the class fantasy of dual wielding one handed weapons on a str class hence why they made it a more viable option and introduced Single-Minded Fury to allow Fury warriors to go back to their pre-wrath playstyle of dual wielding one handed weapons.
Interestingly enough, the timeframe of them adding Threat of Thassarian into Frost DK would correspond pretty well with when they were most likely going full swing into developing Cata. It would make sense for them to shift Frost Dk to dual wielding DPS right around the time they finalized their plans.

So there you have it.


Photo of OG DK talent calc:
https://imgur.com/e0dIeKz

Patch note evidence:

Patch 3.2
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.2.0

Patch 3.3.3
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.3.3

[Demeisen]

Dual wield tanking providing no benefit aside from being unique. The dual wielding talent itself wasn't even unique to Frost as you could get it on the second row of the talent tree. For some reason it just was more viable to dual wield tank if you were Frost than it was to try it with Blood or Unholy.

I seem to recall dual wield tanking was actively detrimental because parries caused bosses to autoattack more quickly.

[Hctaz]

I seem to recall dual wield tanking was actively detrimental because parries caused bosses to autoattack more quickly.

You're definitely correct. I don't recall the exact reason why it was ever done in the first place. I'm not a tank at all. I'm actually pretty bad at it LOL

I don't recall threat ever really being a problem in Wrath either so I can't say for certain why they did it. It was only a thing up until Ulduar if I remember correctly as well. I think after that people went blood for the most part to tank.

[Lucrece]

It's pointless to ask whether DW fits, it's never going away because Blizzard will not randomly delete the Legion DW artifact appearances or remove a leveling progression mechanism (the artifact legit lasts you the entire Legion leveling experience and is miles better than the garbage heirlooms).

What matters is they make the option of 2H vs. DW play by identical rules in talents and passives so the only balancing concern is the white damage from either setup.

[Jastall]

I just want to use frost scythe and glacial advance because they're one of the few visually distinctive spells we have.

Frost Strike looks like total ass. It doesn't help for several races it's this quick spinning strike with yet another blue outline on a class that's all about being a lumbering juggernaut, not about quick strikes. I'm glad they redid the animation for Obliterate to give it weight and impact.

Hungering Cold and Sindragosa's Fury is currently besides Howling Blast the only visually impressive kit in frost DK.

Unholy has apocalypse, death coil looks 1000x better than frost strike, gets dark transformation, summons a gargoyle, and gets the swirling souls from Soul Reaper.

Unholy feels like an actual DK, whereas frost if it didn't have Hungering Cold and Sindragosa's Fury essentially looks like a warrior with blue outlines instead of red because of how they homogenized melee attacks to save time.

My DK is only my alt, but it's my biggest problem with the spec. It feels like a less mobile, less fun, bluer Fury Warrior. The exception is when you talent into Breath which IS a completely unique gameplay style... but comes with a host of issues of its own that veteran DKs surely know by now. Meanwhile both Blood and Unholy are quite unique and very thematic specs that play very well by my own reckoning. Frost feels neglected in comparison.

Honestly I'd just have done what they did for casters RE wands and what they should have done for Fury RE one-handers; just allow us to transmog however we wish. Why waste time trying to balance 1h vs 2h (which wasn't done in the past, and won't be done now) when they could just unlock the ability to mog whichever version you favor, which seems like far less work to me with a better result.

[Your Mommy]

It's pointless to ask whether DW fits, it's never going away because Blizzard will not randomly delete the Legion DW artifact appearances or remove a leveling progression mechanism (the artifact legit lasts you the entire Legion leveling experience and is miles better than the garbage heirlooms).

What matters is they make the option of 2H vs. DW play by identical rules in talents and passives so the only balancing concern is the white damage from either setup.

Wouldn't it be cool if we got a two-hands version of the Frost artifact? It'd be basically Frostmourne! I have always thought that it looked like a dual-wield version of Frostmourne to be honest

[Lucrece]

Wouldn't it be cool if we got a two-hands version of the Frost artifact? It'd be basically Frostmourne! I have always thought that it looked like a dual-wield version of Frostmourne to be honest

Sure, but it would mean working on art assets, and since these lazy cunts haven't even finished the warlock spell update they promised since WoD (demonbolt does not work with green fire, Soul Fire has the old Vanilla mage pyroblast animation still) and druids haven't gotten new form rewards since Legion, I doubt they'll retool the artifacts for frost DK.

It's always like this, Blizzard does as little as it can get away with because people keep giving them subs. Despite BFA's unpopularity they still turned record profits with WoW. Blizzard will behave like this so long as it has lemmings for a fanbase.

[Zmagoslav]

Wouldn't it be cool if we got a two-hands version of the Frost artifact? It'd be basically Frostmourne! I have always thought that it looked like a dual-wield version of Frostmourne to be honest

That could have something with the fact that it is just that.
Those blades are all that was left of Frostmourne, reforged into 2 blades.

[Hctaz]

It's pointless to ask whether DW fits, it's never going away because Blizzard will not randomly delete the Legion DW artifact appearances or remove a leveling progression mechanism (the artifact legit lasts you the entire Legion leveling experience and is miles better than the garbage heirlooms).

What matters is they make the option of 2H vs. DW play by identical rules in talents and passives so the only balancing concern is the white damage from either setup.

They can easily make 2 handed options of the existing art assets for the Legion artifacts. It wouldn't be too difficult. They already have the capability of modifying the size of a weapon based on race, and those appearances don't end up looking janky despite just being resizes.

I agree that it shouldn't go away, but I think it should just end up being an option. I don't understand Blizzard's fascination with making two different weapon styles have some unique kind of flavor to them. They did the same thing with Single-Minded Fury for Warrior where they... move... faster.. for some reason... Like I get the lore implications of "Big weapon make me slow so small weapon mean I go fast" but there's no reason to do this at all. All they're doing by making these changes tied into your currently wielded weapon is create a situation where Frost DKs and Fury Warriors might need to carry around a second weapon set to swap around MID FUCKING COMBAT based on the situation. Running around with nothing to hit and moving is more important? Better macro over to your one handers so you move faster, Mr. Fury. Pure single target burst needed? Swap to that two handed weapon while you're waiting to get 3 runes so you can Obliterate harder. Not looking forward to that.

[Lucrece]

They can easily make 2 handed options of the existing art assets for the Legion artifacts. It wouldn't be too difficult. They already have the capability of modifying the size of a weapon based on race, and those appearances don't end up looking janky despite just being resizes.

I agree that it shouldn't go away, but I think it should just end up being an option. I don't understand Blizzard's fascination with making two different weapon styles have some unique kind of flavor to them. They did the same thing with Single-Minded Fury for Warrior where they... move... faster.. for some reason... Like I get the lore implications of "Big weapon make me slow so small weapon mean I go fast" but there's no reason to do this at all. All they're doing by making these changes tied into your currently wielded weapon is create a situation where Frost DKs and Fury Warriors might need to carry around a second weapon set to swap around MID FUCKING COMBAT based on the situation. Running around with nothing to hit and moving is more important? Better macro over to your one handers so you move faster, Mr. Fury. Pure single target burst needed? Swap to that two handed weapon while you're waiting to get 3 runes so you can Obliterate harder. Not looking forward to that.

All I know is that since Legion went away, and with it the artifacts that occupy 2 slots, I'll never play a DW class. Not only is a 2H fantasy more appealing for DK, but I've gone 6 weeks killing Nzoth and doing 12-15 keys and quit altogether because not a single weapon dropped to upgrade the 455 2H I'm stuck with while the rest of my gear is 475-480.

I can't imagine repeating that process of getting nothing but rings and useless belts or redundant lower ilv azerite armor TWICE because I play a DW class.

By far the worst conversion from Legion to BfA was the return of having to farm 2 weapon slots for DW classes.

[Ange]

By far the worst conversion from Legion to BfA was the return of having to farm 2 weapon slots for DW classes.

Its the other way around.

You had to deal with weapon farming for offspec all the time just LEGION brought the garanteed weapon slot.

Why do you think PVP was such a highly used method for gearing in the start of each tier?
GARANTEED WEAPONS

LEGION was the positive outlier and people moaned and complained so much about miniscule issues in LEGION that they completly forgot to enjoy the short time with garanteed weapon slots.

Frost was allways the outlier spec for multi-spec players for this reason alone. If you wanted to play more as just a DPS, it meant basicly you have to choose BLOOD / UNHOLY and FROST was just the gimmick spec if you had way to many weapon drops or for players that were simply to bad for tanking and choose a HYBRID class out of stupidity.

[Lucrece]

Its the other way around.

You had to deal with weapon farming for offspec all the time just LEGION brought the garanteed weapon slot.

Why do you think PVP was such a highly used method for gearing in the start of each tier?
GARANTEED WEAPONS

LEGION was the positive outlier and people moaned and complained so much about miniscule issues in LEGION that they completly forgot to enjoy the short time with garanteed weapon slots.

Frost was allways the outlier spec for multi-spec players for this reason alone. If you wanted to play more as just a DPS, it meant basicly you have to choose BLOOD / UNHOLY and FROST was just the gimmick spec if you had way to many weapon drops or for players that were simply to bad for tanking and choose a HYBRID class out of stupidity.

The catch up mechanisms made that trivial past 8.2, especially if you did higher end content since you were fed AP up the ass to its diminishing returns.

BFA made weapon upgrades supremely more rare.