I was wrong

[shoegazing]

Gouge isn’t returning. Slice and Dice isn’t returning. Classic Rogue buttons aren’t returning.

Find Weakness now empowers Eviscerate to deal Shadow Damage. Subtlety is getting an AoE Shadow Damage finisher.

Everything Blizzard has ever said about unpruning and returning to class fantasy is nothing but disingenuous lipservice designed to string us along.

See you all in classic/TBC where I can play a real Rogue. I will not be seeing you in Shadowlands.

[omeomorfismo]

bye
return to play your overloaded sub in that restodruid shitshow of tbc

[Soisoisoi]

Gouge isn’t returning. Slice and Dice isn’t returning. Classic Rogue buttons aren’t returning.

Find Weakness now empowers Eviscerate to deal Shadow Damage. Subtlety is getting an AoE Shadow Damage finisher.

Everything Blizzard has ever said about unpruning and returning to class fantasy is nothing but disingenuous lipservice designed to string us along.

See you all in classic/TBC where I can play a real Rogue. I will not be seeing you in Shadowlands.

It's not all bad, but it is literally pre-alpha, so there's time. As long as it's... early alpha and not "it's still alpha, dw guys!". I'm just happy Sub has got Crip/Wound/Rupture back honestly. Having a finisher that increased our damage able to be dispelled is stupid (especially vs other Rogues), and the shit slow that Sub has. Bleh.

Some good, hope for better, basically.

[Lazuli]

Sub never had a chance.

All they had to do was buff sustain and give SD a 60sec cd. Its pretty obvious that despite what players want, its not what Blizztard wants.

It will continue to be the least fun and least used spec with clunky design and sustain will still suck since 2 charges of SD.

Enjoy hitting like a wet noodle out of SD. 10/10 design.
They could have at least put a fucking talent to make SD a 1 charge burst cd and increase backstab dmg but nah FUCK the players.

It's not all bad, but it is literally pre-alpha, so there's time. As long as it's... early alpha and not "it's still alpha, dw guys!". I'm just happy Sub has got Crip/Wound/Rupture back honestly. Having a finisher that increased our damage able to be dispelled is stupid (especially vs other Rogues), and the shit slow that Sub has. Bleh.

Some good, hope for better, basically.

Its amazing how many times people are this optimistic with Blizztards track record I mean seriously when will you wake up

[Tziva]

The changes aren't actively bad to me, just pretty underwhelming. Gouge was the main thing I was really hoping would return to baseline so I'm bummed it isn't, but otherwise I'm pretty apathetic to the changes. RtB change seems nice but I don't play Outlaw (although maybe once stupid azerite goes away I will be more inclined to swap around specs on a per-fight basis).

So, overall a resounding meh. But in a way, I'm grateful it's at least a "meh" since I don't really trust Blizzard at this point to not create a fantastic disaster. So unexciting might be the best I could have hoped for.

[Powerogue]

All I wanted was my Legion burst CD back on my outlaw. Nothing else. They can't even do that. Instead I get poisons? Why? All that will do is nerf gouge.

It really feels like for all these classes they just threw darts at a board of old abilities and tossed them back in, without addressing core class balancing issues or changes that would make them more fun.

My outlaw lacks burst DPS. He needs curse of the dreadblades and marked for death to be baseline.

My WW monk lacks self healing. They need reverse harm to be baseline.

Most of the other classes I've played, which I had settled on as being "fine as alts" and can't think of major things to change they've done such a random smorgasbord of alterations I don't even know what their rotations are anymore.

[FelPlague]

All I wanted was my Legion burst CD back on my outlaw. Nothing else. They can't even do that. Instead I get poisons? Why? All that will do is nerf gouge.

It really feels like for all these classes they just threw darts at a board of old abilities and tossed them back in, without addressing core class balancing issues or changes that would make them more fun.

My outlaw lacks burst DPS. He needs curse of the dreadblades and marked for death to be baseline.

My WW monk lacks self healing. They need reverse harm to be baseline.

Most of the other classes I've played, which I had settled on as being "fine as alts" and can't think of major things to change they've done such a random smorgasbord of alterations I don't even know what their rotations are anymore.

i mean you say that, but it sounds like you looked at one class then assumed they all are like this, warlocks, dks, warriors, many others are all super excited sabout the changes, its insane how much we are getting back, affi locks look fun again! i know my affi lock raid member is super hyped.

[Varolyn]

Just play assassination. It's clearly the only rogue spec blizz wants people to play considering what's happening with Outlaw while sub is just gonna go back to it's Legion play style.

[Soisoisoi]

Its amazing how many times people are this optimistic with Blizztards track record I mean seriously when will you wake up

I wasn't optimistic about the other changes I mentioned but got them. That's a start. We'll see how the rest of Alpha/beta goes.

[THC BANDIT]

these changes represent a starting point for a dialogue with the community—but this should give you a good overview of what to expect.

[Jibbler]

Honestly disappointed with what they’ve announced so far. Spending combo points on one of 2 damaging abilities is really boring. And assassination just getting ambush back as a renamed dispatch is pathetic. Probably won’t play my rouge if this is how things are.

[Rucati]

Interesting, I think it's fine. Not having Gouge isn't a big deal, we already have tons of control, it's no surprise they don't want the class to have more especially given the added focus on M+. And Slice and Dice was a terrible mechanic, a button you literally use every time it's about to run out with no thought or decision making to be had, how is that fun exactly?

[Wangming]

They could have done a lot more with rogues to make them fun.

At least poisons are back. And I'm looking forward to see how Pickpocket modifies the effect of Crimson Vial.

- - - Updated - - -

And Slice and Dice was a terrible mechanic, a button you literally use every time it's about to run out with no thought or decision making to be had, how is that fun exactly?

It wasn't. They just got used to it and want it back. But the current rogue isn't fun either so we lose either way.

[Eazy]

Let's analyze overall rogue and Assassination changes:

General Changes
The three specializations of Rogues share the teachings they’ve learned while mastering their vicious skills. Assassins teach the basics of Poisons, allowing Subtlety and Outlaw to once again coat their blades with Instant, Crippling, and Numbing Poisons. The lost art of a well-placed Shiv in a target’s side allows a concentrated version of poison to infect the target for a short duration. Pick Pocket will frequently uncover new ingredients that can be mixed into their Crimson Vial, augmenting its power the next time the Rogue drinks it.

So, we're getting poisons back for everyone. I think that's good news? Shiv is back again, nothing special to be honest. They put it in the PvP talents then they're putting it back to rogue arsenal.
Pick Pocket changes are nice, but we still don't have enough information about it. Will it work like thistle tea? For example - getting energy every time we use that ability? Are ingredients one use? Will we have to farm them? I mean the scenario where we will be using a few times crimson vial because of the bonus(?) during the raid? Like "I'm going to use crimson vial 5 times during this fight! I need to have 5x[Kyrian leaf or whatever] in my bag!"

Assassination
Assassination Rogues continue their mastery of poisons with the returning Shiv ability, providing a moment of increased Nature damage on the victim, mirroring the gameplay of Toxic Blade (previously a Talent). Their poisons will be stronger and apply to their blades faster than other Rogues, along with always infecting targets when attacking from Stealth. Assassination once again has access to Ambush as an option for their initial attack from Stealth.

Toxic Blade is renamed to Shiv. Nothing changes but the name of the ability. :-|

Ambush - I always liked that ability, it was really big DPS opener. They really have to do something with it, otherwise Mutilate/Garrote are still going to be a better option... or we're just going to use it every 2 min after Vanish.

Blindside (Talent) has changed to give the Assassin a chance to allow access to Ambush even while out of stealth, with a higher chance on lower-health targets. Shiv gets access to another an upgrade through Toxic Blade, reducing its cooldown to provide more frequent assaults of increased Nature damage.

Toxic Blade = talent that reduce shiv CD. Well, maybe it'll make the rotation more smooth.
Blindside - we will be able to use Ambush while out of stealth. Nice, but... isn't that just blindside from previous expansion? And by higher chance on lower-health they mean that it's going to be a random proc?

[Krekal]

Since you seem like somrone who care about wow, leave feedback.
Convince and encourage others to leave feedback.
How can they know what you want without feedback? I'm not talking about making an mmoc post nobody in blizz will read, I'm talking write them letters, ingame or on email

[Nathasil]

For me, personally, i have three main gripes with Sub in BFA:
1) The numbers. They are just not there, but fixing numbers is about the easiest thing to do. Even if Sub was slightly above the other two specs it would hardly be played. In it's current state (see 2+3), it would need to be leaps ahead of them, which would obviously create more problems than it solves.

2) The "baseline" skills outside of dance feel ICREDIBLY underwhelming to me. The spec is only slightly faster than Assn outside of dance....and feels much worse. Backstab, to me, is about the most underwhelming button you can possibly have on your bars for any class. That would be easy to fix, though. Give Backstab more interesting effects...a better sound, lower the base damage but make it crit more often (like it originally was)...ANYTHING to make this PoS ability a little more attractive to use. Having to use backstab in the BFA iteration is my biggest gripe with Sub gameplaywise.

3) The motive. Sub is just the "other dagger spec". It should have been a Ninja in Legion - Pop culture Ninjas use longer blades and extravagant fighting styles. They do not autoattack with 2 puny daggers waiting for dance to come off CD.

---

So let's see which of those 3 gripes of mine are adressed by this first iteration of changes:
@2: Fewer dances means more backstabs with so far absolutely no changes to the ability announced. Perfect.
@3: Remove some of the shadow-stuff and make it even more of a poor-mans Assassination, just without everything that makes Assassination superior.

Yeah, looks fine to me. Great changes, so far.

/sarcasm

[Eazy]

3) The motive. Sub is just the "other dagger spec". It should have been a Ninja in Legion - Pop culture Ninjas use longer blades and extravagant fighting styles. They do not autoattack with 2 puny daggers waiting for dance to come off CD.

Subtlety rogues should have used katana in Legion. Every class had artifact, so it wouldn't matter what kind of weapon they had(it could've been easily tweaked). Every race has two-hand attacks animation also.

They had really good chance for doing that... instead we've got ice popsicles.

[Biomega]

First of all, pure DPS with 3 specs is just shit in general, I don't get why they didn't just get rid of it in the first place but oh well.

Second, as long as it's mechanically the same in each spec, Rogue will just feel like a flavor variation that's closer to a reskin than a new model if you allow that metaphor. Whoopee, so Sub deals shadow damage, Ass deals poison damage, and Outlaw crits higher. What amazing variety. There just isn't a whole lot to do with the same builder + finisher combo point system being at the core of each of the three specs. It'll come down to numbers again, like it always has.

Want to make Sub a more-played spec? Turn the knob until its mathematically the best damage. But that doesn't solve anything, does it.

The problem is simply this: what is Sub's niche? Assa has been about single-target damage, Outlaw about cleave. Both are THE two most useful specializations in terms of PvE content, between raids, M+, and open world. Where does Sub fit in? Where COULD Sub fit in, that isn't just one of the same two?

[oplawlz]

I think we kinda got screwed by rogue being one of the less whined about classes in bfa. I enjoyed my assasination rogue, but the dot playstyle has always appealed to me and bliz seems to have no idea what to do with locks so that was a no brainer. By no means should that be a reason to gloss over the many issues rogues have atm, particularly subt.

Hopefully Bliz listens and gives pve subt rogues back their powerful burst. Getting globalled in pvp is dumb and keeping a lid on that is fine.

[Powerogue]

i mean you say that, but it sounds like you looked at one class then assumed they all are like this, warlocks, dks, warriors, many others are all super excited sabout the changes, its insane how much we are getting back, affi locks look fun again! i know my affi lock raid member is super hyped.

Well I have a ret paladin, fire mage, frost DK, WW monk, dps DH, boomkin druid, outlaw rogue, BM hunter, arms warrior, and destro lock off the top of my head and none of these changes looked interesting to me. It probably doesn't help that almost every alt was started in Legion after these abilities were removed so I have no attachment to them and had to wowhead what they even do.

I'd be curious of a breakdown by people who are hyped as to which abilities and why having them improves the fun and function of your class.