Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Benggaul]

So let me get this straight:
You go to vote
Your vote then goes to elect someone to vote for the person you voted for
But that person can decide to just say "nah, I'd rather vote for someone else" .. ?

Am I getting this right?
How the fuck is that a democracy

It was designed to make sure slave states could swing things in their favor when ever they pleased.

IIRC it was put in place because the framers figured that the vast majority of the population would not have access to the information they would need to make informed decisions--especially those way the fuck out in the sticks--so the idea was that their vote could be overruled by someone more educated if they were being led astray. They also wanted to avoid a situation in which a charismatic asshole could just win over the vast majority of the population through bullshit and then gain a fuckload of power through populism.

Yeah, that didn't age well, did it?

These days everyone in the US has pretty easy access to information (or misinformation if they follow FOX "News") and we've seen time and again that it's still pretty easy for a "popular" asshole to get elected to office. The fact is that the Electoral College didn't solve any of the problems that the creators thought it would and has since been used as a handicap that gives undue amount of power to the minority of the population. It desperately needs to go, but the GOP cling to it so tightly (mainly because it's fast becoming their ONLY path to the Presidency) that there's little chance of it being eradicated unless the Dems can control the House, Senate and Presidency--and get enough support from within their own party.

[Breccia]

Giuliani says Trump was being sarcastic when he said Biden won.

[PhaelixWW]

Giuliani says Trump was being sarcastic when he said Biden won.

What's with the unending attempts by Trump and his cabal to Poe's law reality?

[Endus]

What's with the unending attempts by Trump and his cabal to Poe's law reality?

It's right in the playbook(s) they're working from.

Here's the primarily relevant quote;

All this was inspired by the principle—which is quite true within itself—that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

Once you understand the playbook they're using, shit like this becomes a lot more clear.

[JohnBrown1917]

Yes, but there are states that prohibit you from voting against the will of the state and others that will fine you is you vote against the will of the state. It's weird, yes.

A fine is not going to stop anybody

[Ausr]

Technically he hasn't received the electoral votes yet, only votes for them, but I'm convinced that he will get them - and:

In 2016 Trump got 306 votes for EC, but only got 304 votes when EC voted. (Hillary got 232 votes for EC, but only 227 votes when EC voted.)
Biden got 306 votes for EC. If Biden gets more than 304 when EC votes next month (which seems likely) it must be a bigger landslide than Trump, right?

Your post reminded me of a little segment on CNN yesterday having to go through the next steps and dates for the votes and EC to certify everything. Something they probably have never had to do because the sore loser bitch in the WH just can't concede and his threats of not doing so.

[Leobald]

So let me get this straight:
You go to vote
Your vote then goes to elect someone to vote for the person you voted for
But that person can decide to just say "nah, I'd rather vote for someone else" .. ?

Am I getting this right?
How the fuck is that a democracy

No need to overreact. Never in the history of the US have the electors elected somebody else than they were supposed to, and there is no reason to assume they ever will.

The electoral college is certainly an outdated system, but when it wasput in place, direct popular democracy was in no way the norm. Revolutionary France a few decades later also had mainly indirect elections similar to the US electoral college.

Actually taht Representatives were elected by drect populat vote right from the begining was actually quite progressive for its time. (Note that Senators and in most states even electors were originally not elected by popular vote, but buy the people, but by the state legislatives.)

It's just that many other parts of the US Consttution went through some modernisation over time (like obligatory popular vote for Senators), for some reason you got stuck with the Electoral College.

Right now it would be impossible to abolish. The Republicans lost the popular vote at 7 of the last 8 presidential elections, they will never gove upt the Electoral College.

[DarkTZeratul]

So let me get this straight:
You go to vote
Your vote then goes to elect someone to vote for the person you voted for
But that person can decide to just say "nah, I'd rather vote for someone else" .. ?

Am I getting this right?
How the fuck is that a democracy

Because the current implementation of the system is very much "square peg in round hole." The idea was that A) most people don't know shit about economics or foreign policy or whatever, and B) people wouldn't be openly campaigning for president, so the people would choose intelligent and knowledgeable electors to make that decision on their behalf. The electors would then all get together and vote for a president. The assumption was that this would virtually never result in a clear winner, and the top selections from the electors would go to the House of Representatives for a final vote, with whoever got the most votes becoming President and the runner-up becoming Vice President. So essentially, instead of voting for Joe Biden or Donald Trump for president, you'd vote for, say, local foreign policy expert Bob Johnson to evaluate strong presidential contenders and then cast a vote for who he felt would be the most qualified person based on his expertise and his understanding of the views and needs of his district.

This "worked" for the first two elections in which the electors just unanimously chose George Washington, but by 1796 political parties (at the time, the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans) had developed. It still sort of worked, though, because each party was pushing multiple candidates and the candidates themselves weren't campaigning (and while John Adams did wind up with a majority of electors, there were nine other candidates who also got votes). It fell apart completely in 1800, though, because the parties had realized they could game the system by voting for electors who were already pledged to vote for a specific candidate, and then those candidates openly campaigned for themselves.

And ever since we've been directly electing presidents using a system explicitly designed for indirect elections, with only a few minor tweaks (such as electing the President and Vice President separately) in that time.

[Zan15]

3) Trump doesn't...you know...have a plan. What you're seeing isn't a strategy, it's handfuls of excrement thrown against to the Wall to see what sticks. Trump will get around to the illegal vote stealing faithless electors eventually, but only when what he's currently trying fails.

.

very evident by his whole 4 year term.
Also by "plan" on election night. Stop vote, start vote, throw out vote, sue, and finally stop the steal because it was the one that stuck.

[Kaleredar]

A fine is not going to stop anybody

Why would the electoral college voters appointed by the democrats randomly decide to vote for Trump? The states have no way to compel the electoral voters to vote a certain way or force them to be replaced by republican-aligned electors instead, so the democrat electors have to choose to do so on their own.

Each party appoints their own slate of electors. When that party wins a state, that party's electors are then chosen to vote. They're not some random floating group of people with whatever party affiliation in each state that act as the electors who they just hope will vote the way the state wanted to.


I have very little doubt that each of Biden's appropriate 306 electoral college votes will be cast with anything but vindictive pride for Biden and against Trump come December.

[Santti]

No need to overreact. Never in the history of the US have the electors elected somebody else than they were supposed to, and there is no reason to assume they ever will.

The electoral college is certainly an outdated system, but when it wasput in place, direct popular democracy was in no way the norm. Revolutionary France a few decades later also had mainly indirect elections similar to the US electoral college.

Actually taht Representatives were elected by drect populat vote right from the begining was actually quite progressive for its time. (Note that Senators and in most states even electors were originally not elected by popular vote, but buy the people, but by the state legislatives.)

It's just that many other parts of the US Consttution went through some modernisation over time (like obligatory popular vote for Senators), for some reason you got stuck with the Electoral College.

Right now it would be impossible to abolish. The Republicans lost the popular vote at 7 of the last 8 presidential elections, they will never gove upt the Electoral College.

...Until it inevitably does happen. The fact that such possibility even exists is bugfuck nuts. Does the inherent and widely acknowledged catastrophic failure really need to happen first before people care enough to come to their senses?

[Kaleredar]

...Until it inevitably does happen. The fact that such possibility even exists is bugfuck nuts. Does the inherent and widely acknowledged catastrophic failure really need to happen first before people care enough to come to their senses?

the electoral college needs to be done away with. But "faithless electors" aren't the main reason.

The main reason is because it's an extremely antiquated system that invests a vast amount of power in a handful of random states and only exists to, at best, happen to coincide with the will of the people (meaning a popular vote would have sufficed anyway) or, at worst, directly abrogate it. (Like in 2000 and 2016)

The only reason it still exists is because it's the only plausible path the republicans have to the presidency, and they still retain roughly half the power in DC to prevent its removal.

[Egomaniac]

So let me get this straight:
You go to vote
Your vote then goes to elect someone to vote for the person you voted for
But that person can decide to just say "nah, I'd rather vote for someone else" .. ?

Am I getting this right?
How the fuck is that a democracy

Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. In theory the electors are required to vote for the candidate that won their state...but there's really not much teeth to compel them to do so. in 2016 the 4 faithless electors from Washington were all fined...a whopping $1000 each.

It's asinine....but the Constitution says that's the way it has to be...and the Constitution is not to be questioned...even when it doesn't make any god damn sense.

[Skulltaker]

It's asinine....but the Constitution says that's the way it has to be...and the Constitution is not to be questioned...even when it doesn't make any god damn sense.

It made sense (at least a lot more) when it was written. Didn't the founding fathers even say it probably needs to be revisited every generation or so, so that it doesn't become outdated?

[Egomaniac]

Yea that's why amendments exist right?

Adding things to the Constitution is one thing.

Removing them is an altogether different thing. For some reason you guys get all squirrelly when it comes to admitting that the Founding Fathers ideas might be a little dated.

[david0925]

Adding things to the Constitution is one thing.

Removing them is an altogether different thing. For some reason you guys get all squirrelly when it comes to admitting that the Founding Fathers ideas might be a little dated.

honestly, anyone that think the founding fathers are infallible should be banned from using any technology invented after 1776.

[Clone]

Adding things to the Constitution is one thing.

Removing them is an altogether different thing. For some reason you guys get all squirrelly when it comes to admitting that the Founding Fathers ideas might be a little dated.

Even Thomas Jefferson believed the constitution should be renewed every 19 years.

[DarkTZeratul]

Adding things to the Constitution is one thing.

Removing them is an altogether different thing. For some reason you guys get all squirrelly when it comes to admitting that the Founding Fathers ideas might be a little dated.

You mean like pledged electors, that the Founding Fathers were quite clear was a terrible concept that went against the entire spirit of the process?

[Kaleredar]

"Original intent" of the constitution and what the founding fathers wanted only works from an argumentative angle if the people you're arguing against have an actual invested interest in such things. The GOP, let's be clear... do not.

They are interested in what keeps them in power, plain and simple. The last four years and their support of Trump through all of his illicit and traitorous actions should be enough evidence of that. Right now, the electoral college is the only thing that even gives them even a chance at the white house; the last four presidential elections they lost the popular vote by a factor of millions of votes.

[postman1782]

What do I wake up to today, lets see. I need more coffee.

1.Crying about the recount in GA already. Who could have seen that coming

2. Somehow its Bidens fault people are dying from Covid now.

3. Claiming the data seized in Germany in a raid that never happened means that Trump actually won the election 410 to 128, including him winning CA.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...2470769&type=3

Of course it is some crazy moron from QAnon that believes that shit.

- - - Updated - - -

So after 4 year of Muh Russia! and Not my President!! You are going to get Muh rigged election and Not my President!! from the other side. Sheesh.

Funny, the "muh Russia" shit was true after the Republican led Senate Intel Report, and the Mueller Report.