Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[DKjaigen]

Then you haven't been paying attention. Trump has done so much structural damage to the US that it will take a long time to rebuild. And our worldwide reputation is tattered beyond repair. If you missed it, over 180,000 people have died from Covid, and estimates that this number is underestimated by 10-30%.

This is like one 9/11 a week for a year. Well worse than that. More deaths, and a LOT more economic damage.

You must have missed the RNC yesterday. Far more anger and hatred between different groups of people in the US than anytime since about the Civil War.

We have record high stock prices while in the beginning of a recession. This is NOT sustainable. We have a President that lies daily in his tweets. This is NOT sustainable. In Congress the two sides are enemies rather than being on the same side. This is also NOT sustainable.

Destroying something as huge as the US takes a while. Trump is working as hard and as fast as he can to get the job done before he leaves office.

Every single problem seems to orginate from the democratic cities. You left the working class to rot during obama so there hatred is well jsutified. and now you will get a taste of your own medicine. Let the democratic cities rot.

[Edge-]

https://reason.com/2020/08/25/rnc-bi...ve-censorship/

Shocking: Evil liberal social media that TOTALLY CENSORS CONSERVATIVES carried night one of the RNC uninterrupted, despite broadcast networks including Fox repeatedly cutting away to their own hosts.

[Milchshake]

So hard to see daylight between these cosplay socialists, and your garden variety Trump supporter. They dont want to build a coalition, or share power ...

They just want to smash or burn down the hard work of others.

When Rabbi Susan Talve heard that Patricia and Mark McCloskey would be among the speakers addressing the Republican National Convention, she decided she could no longer stay quiet.

“It’s so upsetting that they have a national audience,” Talve said. “It’s upsetting we make heroes out of people who hate.”

The McCloskeys are Talve’s neighbors. Their property’s northern wall abuts the property of St. Louis’ Jewish Central Reform Congregation, where Talve is the rabbi.

In 2013, the synagogue placed beehives along the wall to produce honey for Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. One morning they found the hives destroyed and all the bees dead. Mark McCloskey had taken an ax or sledgehammer to them.

His issue? The fence between them sat six inches inside the McCloskey’s property line. The hives were his to wreck.

“He could have picked up the phone and said, ‘Hey, those beehives are on my property,’ and we would have happily moved them,” said Talve.

She said children at the synagogue wept when they heard the news of the hives. The synagogue maintains raised bed gardens on its property that supply some 2,000 pounds of fresh produce to a local food pantry, as well as pear, fig and apple trees.

“We were going to have our own apples and honey for Rosh Hashanah!” she said.

She said the McCloskeys didn’t contact the temple at all before lashing out.

Instead, McCloskey left a note threatening to sue the synagogue for damages if the shattered hives were not removed at once.

“Civility,” Talve said. “I’m willing to speak out now because there’s such a lack of civility that’s happening, and I don’t feel like I can be a part of that, and silence is complicity.”

Talve paused.

“They are bullies,” she said. “The fact that they’re speaking at the convention is a win for bullies.”

[Omega10]

Every single problem seems to orginate from the democratic cities. You left the working class to rot during obama so there hatred is well jsutified. and now you will get a taste of your own medicine. Let the democratic cities rot.

A lot of Trump supporters regularly say things like 'First we'll kill the liberals, and then cage the ones we don't kill first.' Apparently you agree with this sentiment. You are a true symptom of exactly why the US is going downhill fast. You are the problem.

[Thekri]

This is why only a landslide will do this year. Trump supporters will be just switching who they follow should Biden become President. And they will continue to be completely angry about just about everything.

This also means that non Trump supporters can not just relax once the election is over.

Step 1: Remove Trump from office.
Step 2: Defeat his supporters when they gravitate to someone worse.

Step 2 will be much harder than Step 1.

I get the concept, but I disagree in detail. What we need in November is a win. It doesn't have to be a huge win, 270 electoral votes is fine. We don't have to sweep the board, we really just need to make sure we win Pennsylvania and either Ohio or Florida. That is it. I know everyone is greedy and wanting a landslide, but smart politics doesn't waste time or money in Georgia or Texas if you are a democrat (At least for President, the Senate is a whole different ball game).

If Trump loses, the best case scenario is that the 2024 nominee will be... Donald Trump. I see no reason for them to shift their loyalty if he is still eligible for the Presidency, he will just carry the "I was robbed" narrative to another election. Which he will handily lose.

Now if Trump winds up buried in legal cases, and his supporters actually do abandon him, there are four possibilities for the GOP with a loss in November.

1) The part tears itself apart and doesn't run a serious presidential candidate ever again. While there is a lot of historical precedent for this, it really isn't as dramatic as it sounds, because the US is built around a two party system, so another party would form that is the same thing with a different name. It would be an awkward delay, then wind up looking like one of options 2-4, so it isn't really worth discussing.

2) Party of Trump (Without Trump). The mantle just passes smoothly to whoever escapes jail, and someone like Gaetz, Jordan, or Carlson takes over the reins. The GOP keeps playing the same notes, and keeps losing. I find this the least likely option, but it might happen for an election cycle or two.

3) Party of Romney/Bush. The GOP turns to the politicians that actually win, the GOPs incredibly talented and successful bench of governors. Trump has been sidelining and ignoring GOP governors (Except Kemp and DeSantis, which fall in the first catagory) because most of them are stable and effective bureaucrats, that lack his sense of drama. But these guys win convincingly, even in deep blue states. They avoid drama and provide effective (If frequently corrupt, at least not blatantly) government. This option restores the GOP to power, BUT also moderates it, which is the opposite of its current direction.

4) Party of Pompeo (Fourth Reich, The Christian States of Amerika, etc). The GOP drops the Drama and incompetence, and turns to the actually effective authoritarians that are lurking in the GOP. Playing off the contrast with both the Democrats and the incompetence of Trump, they can sweep to power without the crassness of Trump (At least overtly, expect the same drama on the wings, just not from the candidate) but a calculated effectiveness. This party both wins power and keeps it. Probably forever. Or at least until the end of the empire.

[Omega10]

I get the concept, but I disagree in detail. What we need in November is a win. It doesn't have to be a huge win, 270 electoral votes is fine. We don't have to sweep the board, we really just need to make sure we win Pennsylvania and either Ohio or Florida. That is it. I know everyone is greedy and wanting a landslide, but smart politics doesn't waste time or money in Georgia or Texas if you are a democrat (At least for President, the Senate is a whole different ball game).

If Trump loses, the best case scenario is that the 2024 nominee will be... Donald Trump. I see no reason for them to shift their loyalty if he is still eligible for the Presidency, he will just carry the "I was robbed" narrative to another election. Which he will handily lose.

Now if Trump winds up buried in legal cases, and his supporters actually do abandon him, there are four possibilities for the GOP with a loss in November.

1) The part tears itself apart and doesn't run a serious presidential candidate ever again. While there is a lot of historical precedent for this, it really isn't as dramatic as it sounds, because the US is built around a two party system, so another party would form that is the same thing with a different name. It would be an awkward delay, then wind up looking like one of options 2-4, so it isn't really worth discussing.

2) Party of Trump (Without Trump). The mantle just passes smoothly to whoever escapes jail, and someone like Gaetz, Jordan, or Carlson takes over the reins. The GOP keeps playing the same notes, and keeps losing. I find this the least likely option, but it might happen for an election cycle or two.

3) Party of Romney/Bush. The GOP turns to the politicians that actually win, the GOPs incredibly talented and successful bench of governors. Trump has been sidelining and ignoring GOP governors (Except Kemp and DeSantis, which fall in the first catagory) because most of them are stable and effective bureaucrats, that lack his sense of drama. But these guys win convincingly, even in deep blue states. They avoid drama and provide effective (If frequently corrupt, at least not blatantly) government. This option restores the GOP to power, BUT also moderates it, which is the opposite of its current direction.

4) Party of Pompeo (Fourth Reich, The Christian States of Amerika, etc). The GOP drops the Drama and incompetence, and turns to the actually effective authoritarians that are lurking in the GOP. Playing off the contrast with both the Democrats and the incompetence of Trump, they can sweep to power without the crassness of Trump (At least overtly, expect the same drama on the wings, just not from the candidate) but a calculated effectiveness. This party both wins power and keeps it. Probably forever. Or at least until the end of the empire.

With the nightmare scenario that you have laid out here, I would prefer a landslide.

On a practical note, Georgia has not just 1 but 2 Senate elections coming up. Plus it is on the verge of being Purple rather than Red. This would be the ideal year to invest heavily in Georgia. If Trump takes the state, but if we get 1 or even 2 of the Senate seats, then that would justify a large expenditure.

[Thekri]

With the nightmare scenario that you have laid out here, I would prefer a landslide.

On a practical note, Georgia has not just 1 but 2 Senate elections coming up. Plus it is on the verge of being Purple rather than Red. This would be the ideal year to invest heavily in Georgia. If Trump takes the state, but if we get 1 or even 2 of the Senate seats, then that would justify a large expenditure.

The point is that a presidential landslide has no real effect on the likelihood of any of those options. It might increase the odds of #1, but that just turns into one of the others anyway. The GOP will claim the election was stolen if it is decided by 1% or 30%. And American voters are more then fickle enough to elect Pompeo after electing Trump, because Pompeo is a lot more polished, and appears more sane (If less charismatic). I do not think they would elect Jordan after rejecting Trump, they aren't that blind, you need some polish to make that sale.

[Edge-]

You’ve been told incorrectly. There’s nothing unconstitutional about public health mandates like mask orders. Every challenge to them has been slapped down.

The frequency with which some of the "progressive" posters here seem to echo debunked conservative rhetoric is silly.

Note: I'm not accusing anyone doing this of being a secret conservative or anything. Just pointing out an amusing coincidence that kinda nice shows the horseshoe theory in effect.

[Ivanstone]

Every single problem seems to orginate from the democratic cities. You left the working class to rot during obama so there hatred is well jsutified. and now you will get a taste of your own medicine. Let the democratic cities rot.

The Democrat cities are where the US's GDP comes from. Taxes generated from Democrat cities gets shifted to dumb fuck Red states who then use that money to punish Democrat cities by electing dipshits like Trump, both Bushes, Reagan and the vast majority for GOP governors. None of those people are capable of running an economy and their only interest is giving rich people more money while distracting dipshits with racism and religious fanaticism.

Obama saved America from GOP policies. His only crime was not finishing the job.

[Thekri]

Bernie Voters were more reliable for Clinton in 2016, then Clinton voters were for Obama in 2008. So spare me the rest of the nonsense in your post.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...clinton-242819

You aren't going to convince Machismo, and frankly the back and forth is pretty tiresome, it has been going on for months now. Sanders supports slinging shit at Biden makes some sense, since Biden is the candidate. However, that is inevitably going to cause Biden supports to slap back, because defensiveness is part of human nature. With leaves us with a deeply stupid and counterproductive arguments that grinds on for months.

Bernie himself has the right idea. Fully endorse Biden, while sticking to his own personal convictions and agenda. Because that agenda will be more easily accomplished in a Biden presidency then a Trump one, and thus it is in his best interests to get Biden elected. The contrived conflict between Bernie and Biden does not exist in the people themselves, just in their supporters. Neither of them is giving up their principles, and neither is really going to live in harmony with the other, they are just working toward a common goal at the moment.

[Machismo]

Bernie Voters were more reliable for Clinton in 2016, then Clinton voters were for Obama in 2008. So spare me the rest of the nonsense in your post.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...clinton-242819

Yes, they either didn't vote... or voted for Trump.

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sand...n-654320?amp=1

Amazing how that worked. Once again, the longer you rail on, the more you prove me right.

I want to add, nobody is obligated to vote for a candidate they don't like... nobody. If you guys don't like Biden, then don't vote for him. But, you sure as shit better be ready for what happens if Trump wins again. Your dream of a progressive America is gone, it will not happen before you retire. This isn't about Medicare for all, or even some pollution restrictions. You will be facing a SCOTUS that is so reliably conservative, that it would take 16-20 straight years of Democratic Presidents to undo. If you think things like gerrymandering are bad now, just wait.

Do me a favor, list me the top 5-10 political priorities you have, in order of importance.

For me:

1) Cut government spending
2) Cut federal income taxes
3) Ensure equality under the law
4) Reduce immigration restrictions
5) protect the 1st Amendment
6) Protect the 2nd Amendment
7) Remove trade restrictions
8) Increase privacy rights
9) Limit the Commerce Clause
10) Drug decriminalization

Now, this is just off the top of my head, so it's subject to change. If you look at it, which of those will be made better by each party? Which will be made worse. If you look at my priorities, it becomes clear that neither party is going to do too much to help those things, and both can hurt. Sure, the GOP can cause more damage than the Democrats... but not by much.

Can you say the same?

[Edge-]

"I saw that, but honestly that seems likely to be overturned given the current composition of the court."
"I'm not a legal scholar ofc :cryingface:"

And you take these chucklefucks seriously? It's not about "echo chambers", it's about not treating deeply ignorant peoples ignorance seriously.

If it was unconstitutional, as you parroted, why the fuck haven't conservatives taken it to court yet and gotten this shit struck down in every state?

"Mandated face coverings =|= freedom of expression"
"They literally cover your mouth and that's the point"

What the fuck does this even mean? Who the fuck is this chucklefuck and why do you take anything they say seriously? Like, does he know you can still like, talk and shit with a mask on?

[Bodakane]

But also, if this would get to the current Supreme Court... do you think they would uphold it?

Yes.You're inventing issues.

It wouldn't get to SCOTUS, because being against masks is a made up issue by a very specific set of the public....Trump supporters. Had Trump been a competent leader, and mandated the masks, his followers would gleefully be wearing them and the US would be through this by now.

170,000 dead later and numbers are still climbing. So you can try and play lawyer ball all you want in an attempt to obfuscate the actual problem by diffusing the blame.....but I (and numerous others) call bullshit.

[Edge-]

It is just an open channel. A big active discord server with a few ten thousand members. It possibly has more influence on the overall conversation about politics in the USA by several magnitudes than the mmo-c forum has.

I thought it was a good point that the federal government might not have the same authority as the governments in other nations to enforce things like these on member-states. I wasn't sure though so I had to look it up and wasn't aware that the Supreme Court had set a precedent. Ergo, it was a question I posed, which I thought was valid.

I'm also not 100% convinced that the current Supreme Court would uphold it, even if they don't rubber-stamp just everything that Trump does.

But the main point, while you try to allude to horse-shoe theory, what I'm seeing is just that some people aren't as shut in inside their own limited echo chamber as others.

But there's no national mandate, just state level mandates, so this is all poppycock.

And again, if this were actually unconstitutional as fringe conservatives continue to allege, why haven't Republicans in all 50 states sued over infringing their Constitutional rights, and be working their way to the SCOTUS with victory after victory?

It has nothing to do with echo chambers. I can listen to Fox news for a few hours to hear how they're presenting things, and I actually do try to keep up with sites like National Review or the Washington Examiner periodically to see how conservatives are framing and writing about current events.

That doesn't mean I have to give their nonsense notions the time of day, as you did in parroting the nonsense and unsupported theory that such mandates may be unconstitutional. That's the difference.

[Ripster42]

I didn't parrot it. I asked a valid question as a subject for conversation.

I was just looking for a constructive conversation about the subject.

Sure you were. People just tell you things, you repeat them, then take what people told you as true as the premise for that question, then pretend to wonder why people question your motives. Here's that quote again in case you forgot:

Can the federal government in the USA actually enforce the same laws that other modern nations enforced?

I've been told that mask mandates or quarantine orders for example would be unconstitutional in the USA and struck down before the Supreme Court.

If that is true then... yeah, Biden wouldn't be able to do much either, would he?

You weren't looking for constructive conversation on the topic of whether a mandate was constitutional; you'd already based your "constructive conversation" on bullshit.

In Gen Xer lingo, he was riding the White Pony.

That's heroin.

[Bodakane]

Bodakane, dude. I know you, I've seen you post often in the past and your progressive positions and opinions and I respect you for those opinions.

But assuming that I'm here with some nefarious agenda, for me, is just a bridge too far and shows me how overtaken by hysteria people in the US have become. It's the same short-sighted anger you'd see before a country goes to war with another one. There is literally nothing wrong with wondering whether the federal government in the USA would have the same weight to enforce mandates as these as compared to other nations, because the structure of power within the USA being vastly different compared to other nations who don't have to deal with "state rights" or a very stringent constitution.

I get it, I suppose. Everyone has to gather around Biden to lick his boots even if he has a history of pushing conservative policies and openly stated he wanted to slash social programs in the past and even during the beginning of his current presidential campaign...

Do you know that criticizing the group you're a part of is more effective than trying to criticize 'the others' ? It's usually how change and progress is made. There is nothing wrong with criticizing the Democratic Party or questioning them, especially not if it's to push for more progressive policies and actions. It's easier to change something from within than as an outsider, because ... how many times have you guys all been shouting at republicans for how stupid they are for supporting Trump? Do you think any of them have listened?

If you "know me" you'll know I haven't been telling anyone to lick Biden's boots. In fact, during the primaries I got into it a lot with many Biden supporters.

But let's drop the pretense. What you're doing is transparent. You are absolutely playing lawyer ball. There is no real issue with wearing masks, it is 100% fabricated by the right. These are the same people that expect black people to be fully compliant with the cops, praise the Patriot Act and want Trump to destroy the freedom of the press....they don't give a shit about personal freedom. They tow the line and follow orders from their Leader, full stop.

The government can absolutely infringe people's rights for any manner of things from a military draft to using seatbelts to wearing clothes in public. This is a non issue and you pretending it is a real issue is no different than any other Trump worshipper claiming its an infringement of rights.

Spout whatever crazy shit you want, but at least have intestinal fortitude to state that stuff honestly instead of this bullshit bad faith pretending you're just trying to have an open minded discussion.

EDIT:
Look, it has been my personal experience that anyone questioning the legality of being forced to wear a mask is doing so with a conservative agenda.

If I have you pegged wrong, then I sincerely apologize for being wrong about you and painting you in a light that you don't belong in.

[downnola]

I get it, I suppose. Everyone has to gather around Biden to lick his boots even if he has a history of pushing conservative policies and openly stated he wanted to slash social programs in the past and even during the beginning of his current presidential campaign...

Citation needed.

[Omega10]

But there's no national mandate, just state level mandates, so this is all poppycock.

And again, if this were actually unconstitutional as fringe conservatives continue to allege, why haven't Republicans in all 50 states sued over infringing their Constitutional rights, and be working their way to the SCOTUS with victory after victory?

It has nothing to do with echo chambers. I can listen to Fox news for a few hours to hear how they're presenting things, and I actually do try to keep up with sites like National Review or the Washington Examiner periodically to see how conservatives are framing and writing about current events.

That doesn't mean I have to give their nonsense notions the time of day, as you did in parroting the nonsense and unsupported theory that such mandates may be unconstitutional. That's the difference.

The problem is, this kind of nonsense (and worse) is being repeated over and over and over. And people are taking actions based upon this nonsense being true. Actions which, by the way, for example in this case spreads the virus to other people. People in South Dakota have a rally, and people in Nebraska that had nothing to do with the rally die of the virus.

Logically and intellectually you are 100% correct. But in the world that we are living in, people are fighting reality very very hard. And we are all losing because of the efforts of these people.

[Levelfive]

The only one fucking lying right now is you. I guess you want to feel better about yourself. Well do damn bad. Clinton was a terrible choice who ran a milk toast campaign and abdononed any semblance of trying to solidify the base of the party. Exactly what Joe Biden is doing right fucking now.

If Hillary Clinton wasn't just as egotistical and nepotistic as Trump she might have won. If she didn't abandoned and ignore the rust belt she may have won. She didn't do either of those things and SHE LOST TO DONALD TRUMP. Say it with me!. "HILLARY CLINTON LOST TO TRUMP", and ultimately it was her own damn fault. It wasn't the sexist, Comey, Russians, or those damn Bernie Bros. It was Her own damn fault. The Electoral College rule did not just get put in there at the last second unknown to the campaigns. Many were too ignorant to know how to read a damn poll and believe she had a 100% lock in 2016. Anyone with a fundamental grasp of statistic would never give any candidate those kind of chances that were reported. Instead a whole lot of you believed it without question because the Truth is many people who have a sycophantic view of the DNC every bit as delusional as the most die hard Trump or GOP supporter.

Also for the MILLIONTH DAMN TIME, I'm not voting for Trump. I'd never vote for Trump. All that ignores you all misdirected outrage at people on the internet their your own damn Elected Officials.

Yeah, to be clear, I don't give a ripe flying shit who you're voting for. And the data disagree with you:

"You might be tempted to think that these #NeverHillary voters are leftists who thought Clinton was too much of pro-corporate, warmongering centrist. But relatively few of them were. Less than a fifth of them voted for Stein, for example. Instead, these voters were disproportionately likely to describe themselves as moderate or conservative. Among the 31 percent of self-described conservatives who voted for Sanders in the Democratic primaries, more than half were #NeverHillary voters, for example. A large minority of the independents and Republicans who supported Sanders were #NeverHillary voters as well."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...s-chances-now/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/o...ump-biden.html

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog...idnt-do-better

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/19/E4330

I don't have any expectation that you'll read any of that and revise your ill-informed bullshit, but you're wrong. And you're wrong a lot, so it probably won't feel too different than any other day.

[Kathandira]

In my experience it's just the fact that some people might engage in discussion and conversations with different opinions more often than others?

If people shut themselves in inside a bubble they'll never come across the talking points of different opinions.

For what it's worth, I was defending the entire mask mandate idea against a few conservatives (Red was me):

I wonder how mandating the wearing of clothing in general jives with that. Being nude is an act of self expression. But we are required to wear clothing by law. Wouldn't being forced to wear a mask be no different? And in this case, more so important as it is for the purpose of public health and safety?