Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[beanman12345]

You are surprised Trump is making it controversial? Why? What has he not made controversial?

Something something "I hope people research their every candidate" something

[eschatological]

I am critical of national intelligence, because of things like the Gulf of Tolkin, Bay of Pigs, and the current war we are still fighting 20 years later that has killed 100,000 of civilians and destabilized an entire area of the world that is still being felt.

Then there is also the shady shit currently going on in Central and South America in countless sovereign nations. All of which our own Intelligence agency's have played an active roll in.

That they act shadily doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. The CIA is a shitty organization that works coups in other countries, precisely because they understand the geopolitical levers they can pull to favor the US.

The major thing U.S. Intelligence has been wrong about in the past 20 years was 9/11 and WMD, but they weren't really wrong about that at all. They tried to warn the Bush Administration, but George Tenet, a political CIA Director, chose instead to appease Bush, including and up to conflating very ambiguous evidence to show that Iraq really truly did have WMD.

As for the Gulf of Tonkin - they knew exactly what happened. They just lied about it.

Same with the Bay of Pigs.

Maybe you want to argue they're lying now.......but then the question is: to what end? And that's when Deep State conspiracies come into place which make no sense, whereas the Tonkin/Bay of Pigs lies DID make sense (from the CIA's standpoint).

[Draco-Onis]

I wouldn't trust any of them and research anything any of them say because they all have a long history of lying about the facts and misleading the public to further thier own goals.

Well on this the intel agencies are right because blessing and a curse the US system is so antiquated it makes it hard for foreign actors to interfere without people on the ground deep inside like I don't know Trump people.

[beanman12345]

Wtf you would research the intelligence from intelligence agencies that are classified and you don't have access to?

[Felya]

I am critical of national intelligence, because of things like the Gulf of Tolkin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

The outcome of these two incidents was the passage by US Congress of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which granted US President Lyndon B. Johnson the authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by "communist aggression". The resolution served as Johnson's legal justification for deploying U.S. conventional forces and the commencement of open warfare against North Vietnam.

Bay of Pigs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

In response, U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower allocated $13.1 million to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in March 1960, for use against Castro. With the aid of Cuban counter-revolutionaries, the CIA proceeded to organize an invasion operation.

and the current war we are still fighting 20 years later that has killed 100,000 of civilians and destabilized an entire area of the world that is still being felt.

The current wars that were justified by Bush and currently has Trump helping Edrogan and Putin kill 100000 civilians and destabilize the region? Do you think Trump has anything to do with the current state of wars? Perhaps inviting Taliban to White House, selling arms to SA and handing Kurds over to Edrogan to be eradicated? Is this reserved for when Trump out of power?

Notice anything else interesting about the ill deeds of out intelligence and the presidents that distort it for personal gain? You think Trump has been doing the same or is your issue that Biden will?

Then there is also the shady shit currently going on in Central and South America in countless sovereign nations. All of which our own Intelligence agency's have played an active roll in.

Do you think Trump had anything to do with it? What do you think of Trump’s derp state going on a secret mission to Ukraine, to get info on Biden, from a Russian Oligarch supporter and international disgraced persecutor?

[Felya]

I wouldn't trust any of them and research anything any of them say because they all have a long history of lying about the facts and misleading the public to further thier own goals.

But, you have to, in order to believe Biden and Trump is the same. You have to ignore quite a bit of what Trump has been doing, to come to that conclusion. You do know Trump vetoed a joined Republican and Democrat passed resolution, to remove Trump’s war power act to go to war with Iran?

[eschatological]

They CIA actions have killed 100ks of Americans and countless Civilians. Their actions heighten tension that lead to the Cuban Missile crisis. An event that almost sparked WW3. The entire branch is in need of restructuring.

I said I've voted with mail in voting, and every election actually. So no, I have no issue with it.

Yes.

But they did that knowingly. That was not a mistake in intelligence. Tonkin achieved exactly what they wanted: U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Bay of Pigs failed because Kennedy got gun shy when it became public and wouldn't authorize the air support. They weren't "wrong" about anything though, so why would they be wrong now about their assessment of whether foreign actors have interfered with our mail-in ballots?

Or, why would they be wrong about, say, Trump and his family's ties to Russia?

[Felya]

They CIA actions have killed 100ks of Americans and countless Civilians. Their actions heighten tension that lead to the Cuban Missile crisis. An event that almost sparked WW3. The entire branch is in need of restructuring.

At the behest of leadership... There were multiple options, the results are due to leadership. This is why Trump’s Russian connection is so unique...

I said I've voted with mail in voting, and every election actually. So no, I have no issue with it.

Yeah, you also seem surprised that Trump is making it controversial, when this was expected for at least months. Years, if you consider it as general election interference.

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Yes.

But they did that knowingly. That was not a mistake in intelligence. Tonkin achieved exactly what they wanted: U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Bay of Pigs failed because Kennedy got gun shy when it became public and wouldn't authorize the air support. They weren't "wrong" about anything though, so why would they be wrong now about their assessment of whether foreign actors have interfered with our mail-in ballots?

Or, why would they be wrong about, say, Trump and his family's ties to Russia?

The key is that the president is handed not only options on how to handle intelligence, but also options on what the intelligence could mean. In context of the thread, it’s quite simple... who do you want assessing and taking action on intelligence? Trump or Biden?

Edit: Colin Powell is not the intelligence community and a lot of his presentation on Iraq, was disputed by the intelligence community. This is the same as Trump bombing Iran’s general, where he claims there was an imminent attack, but intelligence community cannot confirm it.

[beanman12345]

At the behest of leadership... There were multiple options, the results are due to leadership. This is why Trump’s Russian connection is so unique...



Yeah, you also seem surprised that Trump is making it controversial, when this was expected for at least months. Years, if you consider it as general election interference.

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The key is that the president is handed not only options on how to handle intelligence, but also options on what the intelligence could mean. In context of the thread, it’s quite simple... who do you want assessing and taking action on intelligence? Trump or Biden?

Notorious arguments from our "totally progressive and not a trump supporter in any way." Don't know what kind of person Trump will replace RBG with. Doesn't know how Trump could possibly go after Obamacare now. Surprised Trump would make mail-in-voting controversial.

If only people would just do some research!!!

[eschatological]

I'm pointing out why I don't Trust them. They've more than earned that distrust.

Just because they are right about some intelligence doesn't mean I should just accept whatever they say at face value. Why ot look for the truth from an independent source not tied to the government? That use to be the job of the Media, but of course that isn't the case anymore. Now they are too busy sounded like McCarthyist version of Jane Brady to be taken seriously when they talk about Russia. It's almost like they are trying to sow the seeds to another war, but this time with a huge military.

...but......they have.

There's been tons of independent journalism about Trump's ties to Russia. The Steele Dossier was put together by a BRITISH intelligence officer. Reporting these ties doesn't make them instigators in a war against Russia. It makes them reporters. Blame Russia, if war breaks out.

I love that you just called the MEDIA "McCarthyist" when the current administration is McCarthy's wet dream if that fucking dumb fuck was still alive.

[Felya]

I'm pointing out why I don't Trust them. They've more than earned that distrust.

Just because they are right about some intelligence doesn't mean I should just accept whatever they say at face value. Why ot look for the truth from an independent source not tied to the government? That use to be the job of the Media, but of course that isn't the case anymore. Now they are too busy sounded like McCarthyist version of Jane Brady to be taken seriously when they talk about Russia. It's almost like they are trying to sow the seeds to another war, but this time with a huge military.

This isn’t new:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program

Why didn’t they want war before Trump? Why aren’t you claiming that the business man and corporate goons that were targeted by Russians in 2010, unfairly persecuted? Why is the only thing we got from Russia, was Skripal, who they tried to murder later and Trump looked the other way? Why are you acting like this is new or just started with Trump? It only became a problem and have a looming threat of WW3, under Trump’s fear mongering and protection of Putin.

Remember, Barr’s conclusion on the Muller investigation, was not derived by the intelligence community. There is a reason why Trump replaced Sessions and it clearly shows that intelligence community provides the facts... your issue is what the White House does with those facts...

Edit: It doesn’t make sense to not trust the intelligence community, when all they do is collect data and than present leadership with possible meaning of the data and then possible actions based on conclusions made on that data. They do not have the power that is being attributed to them... it’s like blaming water for boiling...

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Let me try it this way... Intelligence community provides Trump with data on Iran. Trump concludes the threat is imminent and demands action. The intelligence community hands him 3 options, with Trump choosing to bomb the shit out of a general.

Who is to blame? Was the intelligence community wrong, since they never claimed that a threat was imminent. It was Trump’s, much like Bush’s admin, that came to that conclusion and chose that action.

It’s why no mater how much intelligence community bitches about Trump and Russia, they can’t do shit about it...

[Daelak]

I said the phone call wasn't an impeachable offense considering we let a past past president have an affair with an intern. It doesn't mean I don't think he should be impeached. He murdered a general on foreign soil using a drone almost sparking all out war.

You may think one of those is acceptable and the other is not, but the Dems can't act all defensive about it when they literally did the exact same shit 2 decades ago. A lot of them are the exact same people.

You think the same thing because you don't understand the destructive repercussions of the executive branch using Congressional appropriated funds as a carrot for his upcoming election to further his agenda.

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I'm pointing out why I don't Trust them. They've more than earned that distrust.

Just because they are right about some intelligence doesn't mean I should just accept whatever they say at face value. Why ot look for the truth from an independent source not tied to the government? That use to be the job of the Media, but of course that isn't the case anymore. Now they are too busy sounded like McCarthyist version of Jane Brady to be taken seriously when they talk about Russia. It's almost like they are trying to sow the seeds to another war, but this time with a huge military.

Who is sounding like McCarthyists? Senate republicans? FBI, NSA?

[Daelak]

I've haven't denied any of it, but the idea Trump is some Manchurian candidate isn't based in any of the evidence. If Trump is tied to Putin it would probably be when he was selling property to the Russian Mafia.. I mean oligarchy, That of course was never really discussed and it certainly wasn't in the investigation conducted on his campaign. I don't think they looked at his fiances that closely at all prior to his campaign,

It isn't a conspiracy theory. Trump is blacklisted from any US investment bank due to his inflated net worth, string of bankruptcies and business failures over multiple different products and services. He has been reliant on Russian financing (Oligarchs) since the 2000's, and has a loan of $700 million with Deutschbank that was underwritten by a Russian bank (Oligarch). He has plans for building a hotel in Moscow, and in Baku, Azerbaijan. He moved the Miss Universe pageant to Moscow to help provide goodwill to Russian Oligarchs and sent letters to Putin to start a good-faith negotiation with the dictator in 2012.

[Thepersona]

No matter how many of you want to say I'm defending Trump. I'm not. The only thing you're doing is convincing yourselves of something I myself fundamentally reject. So Screw you and anyone who even implies it. Especially to the person who can't keep from being continually banned because they lack any tact.

Yes you are. You're equating lying about a blowjob, with blackmailing an allied nation with the witholding of money and military hardware, in order for them to generate some manufactured dirt on his political oponent.

[Ursus]

So did the Ukraine president lie? He said he didn't feel blackmailed.

Well case closed then. Surely the Ukrainian president has no reason to lie in a situation where Trump can make his life and the lives of his people very difficult, right?

[Daelak]

He's talking about the incessant personal attacks and insults that conservatives must endure on this forum.

Oh wahh, poor conservatives, they are truly the persecuted minority.

[Fahrenheit]

Based on what they ( and myself ) want for the country, it will.

Join the Democrats then.

It WiLL deStrOy thE CouNTrY tO hAvE a PersON witH aN IQ tHRee diGIts LoNG aS tHE preSIDenT!

[beanman12345]

Oh wahh, poor conservatives, they are truly the persecuted minority.

I think there is a term for these hardcore Trump supporters and their victim complex. what was it? Ah yes, snowflake.

[Ursus]

Did you read past the first line or are you incapable of that?

Yes I read past the first line. I'm just amazed that you are still willing to entertain the possibility that the Ukrainian president truly believed everything was above board.

I'm also amazed by your attempts to equate that situation with Clinton's.

[downnola]

It isn't a conspiracy theory. Trump is blacklisted from any US investment bank due to his inflated net worth, string of bankruptcies and business failures over multiple different products and services. He has been reliant on Russian financing (Oligarchs) since the 2000's, and has a loan of $700 million with Deutschbank that was underwritten by a Russian bank (Oligarch). He has plans for building a hotel in Moscow, and in Baku, Azerbaijan. He moved the Miss Universe pageant to Moscow to help provide goodwill to Russian Oligarchs and sent letters to Putin to start a good-faith negotiation with the dictator in 2012.

There was an excellent article in the NYT years ago that laid all of that out before the 2016 election. It serves as an example of how good American journalism can be when it tries. But hey, according to some posters around here we shouldn't trust the "MSM" whatsoever because "rabble rabble (((the bankers))) rabble rabble, etc."

The sad part is that most of that information is drowned out by the loud noises of people who believe the guy is a "good businessman."