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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans Clone's Avatar
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    The only moral abortion is my abortion

    Found this little gem while browsing the internet. It's a repost from a year ago of a 20 year old article.
    https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2019/...y-Joyce-Arthur

    A friend posted a link to this article on Facebook. Even though it is from almost 20 years ago, I thought it important to share. www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/...

    "THE ONLY MORAL ABORTION IS MY ABORTION"

    When the Anti-Choice Choose

    By Joyce Arthur (copyright © September 2000)

    Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion.

    In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.

    "I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

    "I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

    "In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

    "We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

    "We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

    "Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado)

    "In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State)

    "The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

    "I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York)

    "I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands)

    "My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

    "A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

    "I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)

    The article linked to these statistics:

    Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a study done in 1981[1] found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who'd had abortions disagreed with the statement, "Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally." A 1994/95 survey[2,3] of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic.[4]

    More anecdotes:

    The medical director of an Indianapolis clinic recalled one prospective patient who phoned to ask whether the clinic had a back door. He said no. How, she asked, could she get inside without being seen by fellow picketers outside? Pointing out that two orthopedists practiced with him, the doctor told the woman "she could limp and say she was coming to see the orthopods."

    The medical director at a Dallas abortion clinic told this story: A white woman from an affluent north Dallas neighborhood brought her black maid in for an abortion and paid for it. While the maid was in a counseling session, a commotion was heard in the waiting room outside. The maid's employer was handing out anti-abortion leaflets to other women waiting for abortions.

    From a clinic director in a mid-western state: "One of the most remarkable cases was a woman who came [from another part of the state] and said she was the Right-to-Life president in her county. 'But,' she said, she 'had become pregnant and had to have an abortion.'"

    From a counselor in Virginia: "[The patient] was disturbed and upset and insisted she couldn't carry the pregnancy to term. She opposed abortion -- and in fact had picketed this very clinic -- [but] felt the abortion was something she had to do."

    The article describes how some women think their situations are deserving of an abortion, while the other women in the clinic are not:

    Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".

    "We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)

    Some doctors say they are hesitant to provide abortions to those who are vocally against it, because they are more prone to bring legal action:

    In fact, an anti-abortion organization called Life Dynamics Inc., of Denton Texas, specializes in malpractice suits against abortion providers. They advertise for and exploit women who regret their abortion decision or who had complications, and try and persuade them to file suit against the doctor or clinic. Many of these women are vulnerable and suffer from emotional problems, but others are anti-abortion, or at least very ambivalent about their decision to have an abortion. The message that abortion is murder has had a profound influence on them, and it may leave them with a legacy of guilt and shame after their abortion, too often borne alone and in silence. When these women find themselves unable to cope with their abortions, they may look for somebody else to blame, and doctors become a convenient scapegoat.

    Other providers see this as an opportunity to educate the clients:

    "When a patient comes in with my 'favorite' sentiment: 'The only moral abortion is my abortion,' I try to expand her understanding that a few more of us have had and deserve a 'moral' abortion. When a woman expands her need for care beyond herself, you no longer have an 'anti'." (Clinic Administrator, Louisiana)

    "Sometimes I say to patients who have that 'I have no choice, I know I'll regret it, just do me' attitude: 'You may not care, but we do. We only do abortions on women who want our services. We will not knowingly contribute to any possible trauma of any woman.' They seem surprised that we care how we do our work, but they also accept it." (Counselor, New York)

    And sometimes that approach works:

    "I never dreamed, in my wildest nightmares, that there would ever be a situation where I personally would choose such an act. Of course, we would each like to think that our reasons for a termination are the exception to the rule. But the bottom line is that you people spend your lives, reputations, careers and energy fighting for, maintaining, and providing an option that I needed, while I spent my energy lambasting you. Yet you still allowed me to make use of your services even though I had been one of your enemies. You treated us as kindly and warmly as you did all of your patients and never once pointed an 'I told you so' finger in our direction. I got the impression that you cared equally about each woman in the facility and what each woman was going through, regardless of her reasons for choosing the procedure. I have never met a group of purely non-judgmental people like yourselves."

    On occasion, an abortion turns out to be a momentous, life-affirming experience for an anti-choice woman. A doctor from a north-western state shared the following personal story with me:

    "I was born into a very Catholic family, and was politically pro-life during college. After dating my first real boyfriend for three years, we broke up, and the day my boyfriend moved out, I discovered I was pregnant. It was an agonizing decision, and something I never thought I would do, but I decided an abortion was the only realistic option. Thanks to Planned Parenthood counseling, I worked through some very tough conflicts within myself. I had to learn that my decision was a loving one. That 'my god' was actually a loving and supportive god. And that men don't have to make this decision, only women do. That it is a very personal, individual decision. I had to own it. I became much more compassionate towards myself and others as a result of my experience. Two years later I began medical school. When it came time to choose a practice, an abortion clinic opportunity came up. In working there, I began to feel that this was my calling. Having been in my patients' shoes, and coming from an unforgiving background, I could honestly say to patients, 'I know how you feel.' Deciding to have an abortion was THE hardest decision I've ever made in my life. Yet it has brought me the greatest transformation, fulfillment, and now joy. I am a more loving person because of it, and a better doctor for having experienced it. I love the work that I do, and the opportunity to support women seeking to end an unwanted pregnancy. My patients and my work are life's gifts to me, and I think my compassion and support are my gifts in return."

  2. #2
    I didn't make it out of the first couple paragraphs because the label "anti-choice" is grating and the tone is tendentious. As a general practice, both epistemically and for pragmatic conversational ones, it's a good idea to not refer to a group as something they would not refer to themselves as.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I didn't make it out of the first couple paragraphs because the label "anti-choice" is grating and the tone is tendentious. As a general practice, both epistemically and for pragmatic conversational ones, it's a good idea to not refer to a group as something they would not refer to themselves as.
    So, we shouldn't call ISIS terrorists, because they call themselves freedom fighters and swear they are only doing what God wants?

    In the end, those people listed were being hypocritical, and clearly weren't actually pro-life, as they got abortions themselves.

    The point is simple, people are often in denial of what they actually are. Many times, they are the last ones who are capable of properly labeling themsleves.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2020-04-13 at 02:12 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, we shouldn't call ISIS terrorists, because they call themselves freedom fighters and swear they are only doing what God wants?

    In the end, those people listed were being hypocritical, and clearly weren't actually pro-life, as they got abortions themselves.

    The point is simple, people are often in denial of what they actually are. Many times, they are the last ones who are capable of properly labeling themsleves.
    I said "as a general practice" deliberately - it's not an absolute rule, it's a good starting point. When you're dealing with people that hold an entirely mainstream political position, giving them a derisive label that they don't subscribe to isn't going to help improve engagement, it's just ingroup circle jerking about how bad your enemies are.

  5. #5
    This is all a pretty good read, and I enjoy these two anecdotes because they sum up a lot of my experiences with "almost self aware" conservatives here in Georgia and in Nebraska:
    "My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

    "A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

    This bit on the other hand...
    "I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)
    I'm not sure "you can say no, but you agreed, so you must really want it" has aged all that well in the era of MeToo.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I said "as a general practice" deliberately - it's not an absolute rule, it's a good starting point. When you're dealing with people that hold an entirely mainstream political position, giving them a derisive label that they don't subscribe to isn't going to help improve engagement, it's just ingroup circle jerking about how bad your enemies are.
    Except, as was shown in the OP, they don't actually hold that position. They aren't pro-life, because they quite literally got abortions. They aren't pro-choice, because they don't want others to be able to make the very choice that they just made.

  7. #7
    Elemental Lord Midterm Voter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, as was shown in the OP, they don't actually hold that position. They aren't pro-life, because they quite literally got abortions. They aren't pro-choice, because they don't want others to be able to make the very choice that they just made.
    It's like Conservatism has become wholly about Dominance. That "they" are the only people that should be able to make moral judgements.
    They need to really be in charge over people that they see in a lower economic class.
    This also applies to their views on immigration. They resent all immigrants that dont do it "properly", or immigrants that might threaten economic position.
    Also applies to how they even view the Post Office. They resent poor people having access. They will gladly pay $5 to mail something, if it means taking it away from the poors.
    Welcome to MMO-C. One you realize that the median poster is a Johnny Depp fanboi that consume 8 hours of youtube a day. You realize it's hopeless.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    It's like Conservatism has become wholly about Dominance. That they are the only people that should be able to make moral judgements.
    They need to really be in charge over people that they see in a lower economic class.
    This also applies to their views on immigration. They resent all immigrants that dont do it "properly", or immigrants that might threaten economic position.
    Also applies to how they even view the Post Office. They resent poor people having access. They will gladly pay $5 to mail something, if it means taking it away from the poors.
    I wouldn't say it's just with conservatives, plenty of liberals and progressives carry their share of hypocrisy around. The issue with conservatives, is that their hypocrisy is often times much more striking and obvious.

    And yes, it's always been about dominance. Nobody actually gives shit about liberty any more (except for the seven libertarians running around), it's always going to be about being in charge, so they get to oppress others. We are currently under the most authoritarian administration since FDR, and they are close to surpassing even him.

  9. #9
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Found this little gem while browsing the internet.
    So... people are hypocrites? I'm shocked - shocked I tell you!

    Have to say though, that last paragraph... talk about cope-posting. "Yeah I murdered an innocent person, but hey, it's made me more compassionate & caring so it worked out okay, r-r-right?"

    Honestly wondering how long this thread'll stay open.
    Still not tired of winning.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Clone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I wouldn't say it's just with conservatives, plenty of liberals and progressives carry their share of hypocrisy around. The issue with conservatives, is that their hypocrisy is often times much more striking and obvious.
    Can you give some examples of this?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Can you give some examples of this?
    Sure, liberals who scream for freedom of speech, then think punching Nazis should be legal.

    Liberals who want to ban firearms, because they swear it will make things more safe, yet oppose banning Muslims when conservatives swear it will make things more safe. Or, their opposition to banning marijuana and other drugs, done in the name of "safety."

    Trump's wall and immigration policies are every bit as socialistic as the liberals' calls for universal health care.

  12. #12
    It's the age old "Do as I say, not as I do." Hypocrisy is as old as dirt. It's not surprising that it found it's way into abortion.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Sure, liberals who scream for freedom of speech, then think punching Nazis should be legal.
    Considering Nazis are trying to achieve just that, but with other races instead of them, how is it hypocritical to treat them with their own medicine? It would be hypocritical to grant them something they want to take form everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Liberals who want to ban firearms, because they swear it will make things more safe, yet oppose banning Muslims when conservatives swear it will make things more safe. Or, their opposition to banning marijuana and other drugs, done in the name of "safety."
    One is based on information, the other is based on prejudice, so the same thing. Yeah, the war on drugs worked wonders in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Trump's wall and immigration policies are every bit as socialistic as the liberals' calls for universal health care.
    Uhu, right, and in what way are Trump's wall and immigration policies socialistic?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Considering Nazis are trying to achieve just that, but with other races instead of them, how is it hypocritical to treat them with their own medicine? It would be hypocritical to grant them something they want to take form everyone else.



    One is based on information, the other is based on prejudice, so the same thing. Yeah, the war on drugs worked wonders in the US.



    Uhu, right, and in what way are Trump's wall and immigration policies socialistic?
    You kinda made my point for me. Nazis are fucking vile creatures, but they should still have their freedom of speech.

    Trump wants to literally control the movement of labor and capital. His desire to do that is fundamentally the same as those who want to jack up the minimum wage.

  15. #15
    It seems like the people who appear pro life or whatever term you want to use who also get an abortion are opposed to abortions because of standing.

  16. #16
    "I saw a few people who are anti-abortion and they were hypocrites. Now basically everyone who is anti-abortion is the same person."

    Don't you guys scream when the same is done to the left-leaning side of politics?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    "I saw a few people who are anti-abortion and they were hypocrites. Now basically everyone who is anti-abortion is the same person."

    Don't you guys scream when the same is done to the left-leaning side of politics?
    Who is making that claim?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Who is making that claim?
    Extrapolating that conservatives are x based on some anti-abortion people being hypocrites.

  19. #19
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    "I saw a few people who are anti-abortion and they were hypocrites. Now basically everyone who is anti-abortion is the same person."

    Don't you guys scream when the same is done to the left-leaning side of politics?
    All anti-abortion people are terrible people, yes.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Extrapolating that conservatives are x based on some anti-abortion people being hypocrites.
    So, it's in your mind?

    There's all sorts of examples of hypocrisy in politics. Just look at contradictory stances on things like firearms, marijuana, alcohol, cigarettes, plastic straws, logging, growing pot, immigration policies, the minimum wage, response to Covid-19, welfare, bailouts, spending, and plenty more policies.

    For conservative, by far the biggest example of hypocrisy is the lack of outrage over Trump's spending and his personal behavior.

    When Obama pushed to increase spending and had a bailout plan, they created a Tea party, and rioted in the fucking streets. Now, they are cheering it on.

    Fucking hypocrites.

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