[Balance] Shadowlands Class Updates

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Even though eclipse isn't that much exciting, after playing it on ptr I like it more than empowerments.

No more stress on having too much Astral Power and fear of over capping on empowerments

dont you worry this comes back with the bis crit lego, were you want to cycle your eclipse asap but also dont overcap

[Segus1992]

Even though eclipse isn't that much exciting, after playing it on ptr I like it more than empowerments.

No more stress on having too much Astral Power and fear of over capping on empowerments

Yep I agree, though I still wish the eclipses were more impactful. They're fine, but I remember always liking the original because of how powerful Starfire felt during it because of the added crit chance. I don't really know how to do it in a way that isn't convoluted, especially since that original Wrath eclipse was terrible.

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dont you worry this comes back with the bis crit lego, were you want to cycle your ecpilse asap but also dont overcap

Yep, that legendary should probably be changed to either have a dynamic sort of ICD (every second since you last started an eclipse adds 15% crit to your next eclipse, depleting by 15% per second after started eclipse) or just have the crit chance tied to the time remaining on the eclipse.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Yep I agree, though I still wish the eclipses were more impactful. They're fine, but I remember always liking the original because of how powerful Starfire felt during it because of the added crit chance. I don't really know how to do it in a way that isn't convoluted, especially since that original Wrath eclipse was terrible.

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Yep, that legendary should probably be changed to either have a dynamic sort of ICD (every second since you last started an eclipse adds 15% crit to your next eclipse, depleting by 15% per second after started eclipse) or just have the crit chance tied to the time remaining on the eclipse.

it will get nerfed its way to good like 40% better than any other lego the question is how

[Lahis]

dont you worry this comes back with the bis crit lego, were you want to cycle your eclipse asap but also dont overcap

Hot damn that design is terrible.

Using that means we want to be out of Eclipse as soon as possible, which means we shouldn't cast Starsurges in Eclipse to avoid extending it.
But Starsurge is both our biggest nuke and benefits from Eclipse, so not casting it while in Eclipse is also dumb.

Shröringer's Starsurge: you want to cast it to benefit from Eclipse and increased crit, but you don't want to cast it to get the 105% crit back as soon as possible.

Gonna be fun to math out the breakpoint on how many Starsurges should we cast in Eclipse, if any.

[Lucrece]

Yes, they actually are.
If changing eclipse mechanics doesn't change how you use spells then that mechanic change just didn't do anything. Adding an extra spell that doesn't actually change the way you play is the same deal (aka Moons).

You're kidding? Moons is probably the least impactful spell to the spec, whether you played with it or without it didn't change your style at all. It was (and still is) just another spell to cast, except extremely cluncky - literally the non-dot version of Stellar Flare (which is horrible to play with, yet we do it because its the best ST talent).
If I could I would take previously trimmed spells, like mushrooms, back any day of the week.

In what galaxy is adding a spell with 3 charges you don't want to overcap, with varying AP payout and damage (one of them a meteor effect) not change the way you play? Saying something is clunky doesn't tell me anything, so I'm not interested in delving into that; you could apply the same meaningless labels to the current eclipses.

"It's just another spell to cast" No shit, that's what spells are. If we're going down this same reductionism, why not trim one of moonfire/sunfire, since it's just "another spell to cast"?

Stellar Flare feels bad because it's a horribly undertuned spell. Nobody would be complaining about it if it were turned into Vampiric Touch or Unstable Affliction or Devouring Plague levels of a casted heavy dot.

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It didn't change the gameplay, it was just an extra button you could press on cooldown or wait (aka pool, like you would do anyway with AsP) for burn phases. It was clunky due to long cast time on Full Moon.

BfA eclipse it literally doesn't matter which order you press your buttons as long as you don't do twice the same button when CA is up (if you have the right traits). New Eclipse changes that (or should, we'll see what the final tuning is), new Eclipse also makes you think of your Starsurge usage, unlike current one

Spells that have interaction with the kit aren't just "another spell to cast" since they actually change how you play the spec. Sadly we don't have those currently in talents, unless Stellar Drift stays the same and we actually Starfall in ST

Stellar Flare feels bad because it is literally just another dot with no kind of interaction with the kit. Nothing else.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Hot damn that design is terrible.

Using that means we want to be out of Eclipse as soon as possible, which means we shouldn't cast Starsurges in Eclipse to avoid extending it.
But Starsurge is both our biggest nuke and benefits from Eclipse, so not casting it while in Eclipse is also dumb.

Shröringer's Starsurge: you want to cast it to benefit from Eclipse and increased crit, but you don't want to cast it to get the 105% crit back as soon as possible.

Gonna be fun to math out the breakpoint on how many Starsurges should we cast in Eclipse, if any.

the breakpionts are: the 3 first sec (2 globals) for SS after starfall single target if you overcap AP, this how we play on beta

"It's just another spell to cast" No shit, that's what spells are. If we're going down this same reductionism, why not trim one of moonfire/sunfire, since it's just "another spell to cast"?

im all for it the dots are so bad at the beta that you dont even refesh them fully i.e you refesh only the dot of the eclipse you are in or you waste dps lmao you may just remove them at this piont

[huth]

Spells that have interaction with the kit aren't just "another spell to cast" since they actually change how you play the spec. Sadly we don't have those currently in talents, unless Stellar Drift stays the same and we actually Starfall in ST

Stellar Flare feels bad because it is literally just another dot with no kind of interaction with the kit. Nothing else.

If Stellar Drift stays like that, Starfall might very well be worth the cast just for the movement. Nevermind it actually hurting in SL.

I think the most interesting use for Flare so far were those retarded trashmobs in front of Skitra. Who the hell thought giving them Nature and Arcane reflect was a good idea?

[Rhaze48]

Hot damn that design is terrible.

Using that means we want to be out of Eclipse as soon as possible, which means we shouldn't cast Starsurges in Eclipse to avoid extending it.
But Starsurge is both our biggest nuke and benefits from Eclipse, so not casting it while in Eclipse is also dumb.

Shröringer's Starsurge: you want to cast it to benefit from Eclipse and increased crit, but you don't want to cast it to get the 105% crit back as soon as possible.

Gonna be fun to math out the breakpoint on how many Starsurges should we cast in Eclipse, if any.

Don't forget that because of the GCD you lose about 1.5s of your 3s extension, feels like crap right now. Oh and the Internal CD on Eclipse doesn't reset in combat so you can't even just spam Wrath without Eclipse until it reset and burn 2 Lunar Strikes to get back into Solar. Oh and the Free/Instant LS procs when doing world/solo content from being hit wasted when you in Solar.

Whole thing feels like shit right now.

[huth]

Don't forget that because of the GCD you lose about 1.5s of your 3s extension, feels like crap right now. Oh and the Internal CD on Eclipse doesn't reset in combat so you can't even just spam Wrath without Eclipse until it reset and burn 2 Lunar Strikes to get back into Solar. Oh and the Free/Instant LS procs when doing world/solo content from being hit wasted when you in Solar.

Whole thing feels like shit right now.

That's been part of Eclipse's design pretty much forever. You're meant to alternate them, not sit around in one all fight.

[TickTickTick]

That's been part of Eclipse's design pretty much forever. You're meant to alternate them, not sit around in one all fight.

That doesn't change the fact that it's a shit design. Isn't the game supposed to move forward, to improve? Do you think reverting paladin to blessings bot would be met with applause because "it used to be like this!"?

[Feral Druid ist Op]

That doesn't change the fact that it's a shit design. Isn't the game supposed to move forward, to improve? Do you think reverting paladin to blessings bot would be met with applause because "it used to be like this!"?

they literally did that, youill play nightfae and buff your strongest healer/dps in porgress or be benched unless youre somwere in the top 1000s or lower

[lappee]

That doesn't change the fact that it's a shit design. Isn't the game supposed to move forward, to improve? Do you think reverting paladin to blessings bot would be met with applause because "it used to be like this!"?

Without forced alteration you'd end up with spamming the same spell even more, since if the spells had any differences one would always be superior to other in ST. I can imagine the whine about having to spam only Wrath.

So no, its not a shit design at all.

[TickTickTick]

Without forced alteration you'd end up with spamming the same spell even more, since if the spells had any differences one would always be superior to other in ST. I can imagine the whine about having to spam only Wrath.

So no, its not a shit design at all.

Doesn't seem like an issue for basically any other caster spec. The way they do classes now has become "spam filler to build resource / generate proc -> use the big nuke spender / use the proc". I don't see SP whining about mind flay spam, or mages about AB/Fireball/Frostball spam, or affliction/destro whining about shadowbolt/incinerate spam. It's only balance for which they are trying to reinvent the wheel and they've been failing since basically cata with numerous different versions of the spec.

The game is already dumbed down. I see no issue in dumbing down a spec for it to be on par with other dumbed down specs. Sadly, at no point in WoW's history has Blizzard even showed some signs of aknowledging balance as a proper ranged dps specs that could compete with other ranged dps specs. Even the utility that used to be our advantage is being constantly trimmed down or shared with other classes now.

[lappee]

Doesn't seem like an issue for basically any other caster spec. The way they do classes now has become "spam filler to build resource / generate proc -> use the big nuke spender / use the proc". I don't see SP whining about mind flay spam, or mages about AB/Fireball/Frostball spam, or affliction/destro whining about shadowbolt/incinerate spam. It's only balance for which they are trying to reinvent the wheel and they've been failing since basically cata with numerous different versions of the spec.

All those classes have other spells to their rotation other than dots and nuker/spender and so does Balance. Balance has its own way of introducing it, which is good for variety. Not sure if you have played those specs, and if you have then you've certainly done it wrong if that's all you've done.

The game is already dumbed down. I see no issue in dumbing down a spec for it to be on par with other dumbed down specs. Sadly, at no point in WoW's history has Blizzard even showed some signs of aknowledging balance as a proper ranged dps specs that could compete with other ranged dps specs. Even the utility that used to be our advantage is being constantly trimmed down or shared with other classes now.

Not sure where this is coming from, Balance has been rather exceptional over the years as a ranged dps - only few bosses where we haven't had a dps spot or two.

[Riistov]

Stellar Flare feels bad because it is literally just another dot with no kind of interaction with the kit. Nothing else.

Yeah, I'd love to see a lot more interaction with other abilities added to it, either through passives or procs.

[Thelxi]

Even though eclipse isn't that much exciting, after playing it on ptr I like it more than empowerments.

No more stress on having too much Astral Power and fear of over capping on empowerments

You are comparing end of expansion BfA balance, to fresh quest gear SL balance. There was no danger or stress of overcapping on either of these at the start of BfA.

If this is the reason for your endorsement you might want to take into consideration that balance can end up just as hectic with procs/haste/whatever by the end of SL.

[Tyze]

You are comparing end of expansion BfA balance, to fresh quest gear SL balance. There was no danger or stress of overcapping on either of these at the start of BfA.

If this is the reason for your endorsement you might want to take into consideration that balance can end up just as hectic with procs/haste/whatever by the end of SL.

Won't have the stress of overcapping on empowerments atleast.

Start of expansion on certain occausions you would def have +60 Astral Power and 3x lunar and solar empowerments.
I never enjoyed being in that spot. Especially not with celestial alignment coming up

[TickTickTick]

Yeah, I'd love to see a lot more interaction with other abilities added to it, either through passives or procs.

I'd like it to be a replacement for Starsurge, for example having a 10 more ap cost (40) but refreshing the dots on your target.

[Thelxi]

Won't have the stress of overcapping on empowerments atleast.

Start of expansion on certain occausions you would def have +60 Astral Power and 3x lunar and solar empowerments.
I never enjoyed being in that spot. Especially not with celestial alignment coming up

You don't know what kind of stress balance will be under the last patch of SL. No one knows what procs/haste levels/legendaries/talents/whatever powers we will have by then. Just look at frost mages and ice lance.

So again, comparing a spec in quest gear to a spec in end of expansion gear does not make sense. Of course if your pet peeve is that your resources are occasionally not lining up exactly as you want them to right before your cooldown comes up, fair enough. It's a weak and kinda weird argument for reworking the spec though, especially when this means another eclipse bar.

Now, if current balance is a bit too hectic for you and you are looking forward to a more chill rotation again, many people share your view. Just be careful what you wish for because before you know it you will be stuck with the eclipse bar for 3-4 years, including two end of expansion states where you will again have the same exact amount of of haste/procs/interactions/priorities that you could not fathom in quest greens. Just saying.