Slice and Dice = just another weakaura on your screen.

[wraysbury]

SnD uptime can absolutely differentiate a bad player from a good one. If you have 5 CP on a boss and SnD is about to run out but in 3 seconds there is a boss mechanic that requires you to run out for about 10 seconds. Then you have a choice of refresh before running out or wait til after youre back in melee of the boss. Theres many examples of things like this.

I don't think there are many compelling examples of the interest of SnD in PvP, though. In PvP the challenge usually (needs to) come from what other characters do to you, rather than what your character needs to do to itself (An exception being burst damage where it seems legitimate to require some setup, but SnD is not burst damage setup).

[Demeia]

*sigh*

This doesn't add anything.

And we more or less requested the ability be removed from the game.

Why?

Because rogue was a class in which the majority of damage was completely, totally passive. Our buttons weren't very impactful or hard hitting. White damage and poison damage was powerful.

So plenty of rogues said, "hey, you need to get rid of this stuff and let the buttons we press do the damage."

Now we'll probably once again be about passive damage being half of our damage. It's not a good thing and we'll be complaining about it next expansion once again.

For the record, I prefer my maintenance buffs along the lines of rupture/garrote, putting a dot on the target (so you're actually hurting them) while also giving me some ticks of energy. Never liked the way slice and dice did no damage by itself.

The only thing that can be said about it is that it is genuinely iconic. And yes, gogue across specs would make me happier, which was also iconic but actually useful and allows for some mildly clever play (gogue npcs to help reset cooldown timers and energy).

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To me a good player is someone who can clear a mythic raid or do +20-25 keys.

Guide to maintaining buffs in WoW:

- Step 1: Install Weakauras
- Step 2: See step 1.

It's off topic but, seriously, mythic players are excellent players. The best of them are world class. A good student isn't someone who gets 98-99 on exams: that's an excellent student. I'm probably a "good" player, someone who can help my guild clear heroic and if I actually did some real work maybe do some early mythic bosses. A solid B. The only thing that mythic raiders would like about me is that I'm staggeringly consistent and reliable; I am too poor on learning the mechanics of bosses to ever be a decent mythic raider.

[shoegazing]

I don't think there are many compelling examples of the interest of SnD in PvP, though. In PvP the challenge usually (needs to) come from what other characters do to you, rather than what your character needs to do to itself (An exception being burst damage where it seems legitimate to require some setup, but SnD is not burst damage setup).

This is incorrect. There are many similar examples in PvP where it can be very wasteful to spend 5cp on SnD yet extremely beneficial to spend 2cp on it. And SnD IS very much burst setup -- in the pre-Legion design, bursting without SnD up was terrible. But yeah, putting up a huge duration SnD and then getting CCd on it is a waste of combo points. A lot of the management involves not spending more than you need to.

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As others have already mentioned, regardless of what changes are made, those changes will inevitably be balanced around. So I honestly fail to see why commenting on performance is relevant at all. Blizzard is of course going to balance the performance of the class around having this ability baseline, so that the class is somewhat in line with the other classes.

The question that needs to be answered is whether the change makes the class feel more fun to play for you, or not. Because the performance aspect of the change is practically irrelevant in this context.

I can understand if this change just isn't your (general you here)thing, buff tracking and adjusting your game play around it, just isn't fun for some people. It is for others.

Well said!

At the very least this shouldn't be surprising. Subtlety pre-Legion involved lots of resource management and timer management, and Blizzard wants us to go in a pre-Legion direction again. They need to go further though, not bringing back Gouge is obviously a mistake.

[Volatilis]

Well said!

At the very least this shouldn't be surprising. Subtlety pre-Legion involved lots of resource management and timer management, and Blizzard wants us to go in a pre-Legion direction again. They need to go further though, not bringing back Gouge is obviously a mistake.

Yes because symbols of death balancing worked so well for sub.

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As others have already mentioned, regardless of what changes are made, those changes will inevitably be balanced around. So I honestly fail to see why commenting on performance is relevant at all. Blizzard is of course going to balance the performance of the class around having this ability baseline, so that the class is somewhat in line with the other classes.

The question that needs to be answered is whether the change makes the class feel more fun to play for you, or not. Because the performance aspect of the change is practically irrelevant in this context.

I can understand if this change just isn't your (general you here)thing, buff tracking and adjusting your game play around it, just isn't fun for some people. It is for others.

Yes because symbols of death balancing worked so well for sub.

[shoegazing]

Yes because symbols of death balancing worked so well for sub.

It's not clear to me what point you are trying to make but Symbols of Death is a garbage ability that never should have been created. It's a boring %damage increase that barely interacts with the resources and other mechanics of the spec in any kind of meaningful way.

[Volatilis]

It's not clear to me what point you are trying to make but Symbols of Death is a garbage ability that never should have been created. It's a boring %damage increase that barely interacts with the resources and other mechanics of the spec in any kind of meaningful way.

And you can just replace the words symbol of death to slice in dice in that sentence and you would still be correct.

[shoegazing]

And you can just replace the words symbol of death to slice in dice in that sentence and you would still be correct.

No. Slice and Dice with Energetic Recovery converts combo points into energy, which in turn gets converted back into combo points.

It increases the pace of gameplay in a way the player can actually feel. Not only can you feel faster white attacks, you can feel the increased energy regeneration.

SoD has none of these qualities.

[Varolyn]

This is is a good thing. Subtlety Rogue has been sorely lacking in setup and rotational management outside of Dance since the Legion changes.

pre-Legion Subtlety had the outstanding PvP playstyle of playing defensively and peeling (shiv, gouge, etc) while setting up SnD and Rupture and pooling energy, alternating with the burst Find Weakness phase where you pump burst damage in a way that is synchronized with your offensive CCs (stuns, blinds, etc).

Bringing back the emphasis on Find Weakness, as well as Rupture and Slice and Dice, is clearly moving us back in this direction which is a super welcome change.

But we need to go further: Energetic Recovery needs to return as well, so that Slice and Dice becomes the vehicle for converting combo points back into energy (which in turn becomes more combo points). The pace of play has been absolutely abysmal since this was removed, it's so bad in PvP particularly because Vigor isn't good compared to MfD (which btw is so good for solo questing due to resets that it should be baseline to the class) and we don't get huge haste numbers like some PvE guys get.

Additionally Premeditation needs to return to support Slice and Dice. This solves 2 problems: 1. it allows BFA Rogues who love the First Dance trait to just macro Premed into their Dance/Ambush to get the same behavior, and 2. it allows us to start our rotation from Stealth as we close in for the opening, with Premed --> Slice and Dice, which is one of the coolest and most unique things about playing Subtlety.

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Wrong on a fundamental level. For Subtlety, SnD (with Energetic Recovery) was more resource interactive in any Rogue ability, since it was the vehicle that converts combo points back into more energy allowing us to have a faster pace of gameplay even when Shadow Dance is down.

Something like Symbols of Death is not even close in comparison in terms of resource interactivity. It's just a button that you press and more % damage happens, just don't overcap energy ZZzzz. Symbols of Death should be pruned. It was always a terrible design, but now it's even more pointless than it already was with Slice and Dice returning.

While I do think energetic recovery should return, SnD actually will help sub with energy regen regardless, though probably not the way you would want it. Shadow techniques will proc more with SnD active, since it actually isn't ppm, it procs at minimum after your 2nd auto, or at the most 4th auto, with a reset happening after each proc. Problem is that your gonna have to stick your ass on the target 24/7 to get this energy regen.

[Volatilis]

No. Slice and Dice with Energetic Recovery converts combo points into energy, which in turn gets converted back into combo points.

It increases the pace of gameplay in a way the player can actually feel. Not only can you feel faster white attacks, you can feel the increased energy regeneration.

SoD has none of these qualities.

Wow so much value. Passive energy regen is game breaking your right. Sorry I didnt realise passive regen is what sub needed.

Those chumps in arena wont know what hit em.

You could just lower the energy cost of spells and it would have the exact same effect.

[Varolyn]

Wow so much value. Passive energy regen is game breaking your right. Sorry I didnt realise passive regen is what sub needed.

Those chumps in arena wont know what hit em.

You could just lower the energy cost of spells and it would have the exact same effect.

I mean he isn't wrong about sub's passive energy regen(or lack thereof). It's been a huge issue for sub in both pve and pvp since Legion which would often pigeonhole players to take talents to just help with energy regen. The spec needed an azerite trait in Legion and an essence in BFA to help alleviate this, both which are a part of rental systems.

[Volatilis]

I mean he isn't wrong about sub's passive energy regen(or lack thereof). It's been a huge issue for sub in both pve and pvp since Legion which would often pigeonhole players to take talents to just help with energy regen. The spec needed an azerite trait in Legion and an essence in BFA to help alleviate this, both which are a part of rental systems.

Which wasnt his original point or the thread which is about slice and dice.

Energy regen is a total different issue no?

[Biomega]

Which wasnt his original point or the thread which is about slice and dice.

Energy regen is a total different issue no?

In my understanding yes, it should be. SnD is attack speed, while energy regen is tied to haste - and the two are not the same thing, mechanically.

I'm not sure how they got the idea that what Rogue really wants is a sustain ability for passive damage. Seems like a weird conclusion to draw from BFA's criticism of class rotations being boring and unfun.

[Volatilis]

In my understanding yes, it should be. SnD is attack speed, while energy regen is tied to haste - and the two are not the same thing, mechanically.

I'm not sure how they got the idea that what Rogue really wants is a sustain ability for passive damage. Seems like a weird conclusion to draw from BFA's criticism of class rotations being boring and unfun.

If people want 60% of their damage being auto attack white swings TBC is right around the corner.

And Meme's aside but haste does need to scale better with sub. You notice haste on assassin and outlaw where once you're well geared the spec flows a lot better.

[Mozu]

SnD is iconic to rogue imo, and raiding on rogue without it feels awful to me. Can't believe we're *already* back to asking for pruning.

[Biomega]

SnD is iconic to rogue imo, and raiding on rogue without it feels awful to me. Can't believe we're *already* back to asking for pruning.

I mean, there was a REASON they removed it - iconic or not, it's just not interesting gameplay. If it was, this'd be a different discussion, but bringing back things JUST because they're "iconic" (whoever gets to determine that) can backfire easily.

[Mozu]

I mean, there was a REASON they removed it - iconic or not, it's just not interesting gameplay. If it was, this'd be a different discussion, but bringing back things JUST because they're "iconic" (whoever gets to determine that) can backfire easily.

And there's a REASON they're bringing it back. Not every single button needs to be super interesting on its own. That's how you get the 3 button rotations we have now.

Besides, maintaining a high snd uptime while also being efficient with combo points for other abilities is interesting to me.

[Biomega]

And there's a REASON they're bringing it back.

Evidently, but what reason is that? Is it because it meaningfully improves Rogue rotations, or is it something else? I could think of possible alternatives. Like, say, distract people with good PR because "omg UNPRUNING!" so they overlook how little actual redesign is put into classes.

Of course, as with any change there'll be people who like it, and people who don't. Blizzard's goal isn't perfect competitive balance to begin with - it's maximizing profits. If that means putting something in that competitive players don't like but the more casual (and far more numerous) players do enjoy and as a result keep subbed for longer, then that is absolutely what they're going to do. You can't please everyone, and they don't even try. They just want to please ENOUGH people.

I totally understand that my own personal views on the matter might well be as part of a minority that's not being catered for. I will object to things I don't enjoy and try to change them, but ultimately I'll have to accept whatever the result is at the end or stop playing. In BFA, that's exactly what I did. For SL, the verdict is still out.

[Aleksej89]

I personally hate maintenance buffs.
But SnD is imho soooooo much better than the roll the bones mechanic where you constantly cast that buff over and over until you get one of the strongest combinations.

Blizzard are idiots for removing skills such as gouge.
Before the pruning started WoW had decent RPG classes - but blizz decided to turn them into something you can fit onto a gamepad...

[Mozu]

I could think of possible alternatives. Like, say, distract people with good PR because "omg UNPRUNING!" so they overlook how little actual redesign is put into classes.

This seems unnecessarily conspiratorial. Seems much more likely to me that they got enough requests for SND to come back from rogue-fans that they brought it back. Same with poisons, which isn't "interesting" either rotationally but something I very much agree with bringing back.

[Biomega]

Same with poisons, which isn't "interesting" either rotationally but something I very much agree with bringing back.

I agree that some things could/should be brought back, but poisons work far better than SnD because they're not part of the rotation, and have flexible options with implications especially in PvP (not to mention synergies beyond themselves, via Shiv). SnD, meanwhile, is literally - as the thread title suggests - just another WA to track and maintain.

Poisons actually make the problem WORSE, because it's EVEN MORE passive damage. One of the biggest complaints in BFA was how much damage was passively added by all the procs, essences, azerite, corruptions, etc. And now two of the things they give Rogues in the next expansion are effectively passive damage?