Slice and Dice = just another weakaura on your screen.

[Mozu]

I agree that some things could/should be brought back, but poisons work far better than SnD because they're not part of the rotation, and have flexible options with implications especially in PvP (not to mention synergies beyond themselves, via Shiv). SnD, meanwhile, is literally - as the thread title suggests - just another WA to track and maintain.

Poisons actually make the problem WORSE, because it's EVEN MORE passive damage. One of the biggest complaints in BFA was how much damage was passively added by all the procs, essences, azerite, corruptions, etc. And now two of the things they give Rogues in the next expansion are effectively passive damage?

Poisons do not have flexible options in pve (and honestly not in pvp either, it's pretty standard for most situations), and if you're arguing about pvp - snd adds a lot of depth to pvp rotations because you have to choose between kidney, evis, rupture, or snd. That's a meaningful choice in real pvp, especially with lower energy regen. This thread is mostly about pve rotation though, so let's not get off track too much.

Snd is as much of another WA to track and maintain as stormstrike or bloodthirst (etc). You press them when the cooldown (WA) is up. The entire game is about pressing the buttons you have to maximize your class. Snd is no different. Just another button that adds a bit of depth to the rotation. It's such a weird argument.

Seems to me like a lot of people would just rather play warriors in this thread tbh.

[Biomega]

The entire game is about pressing the buttons you have to maximize your class. Snd is no different. Just another button that adds a bit of depth to the rotation. It's such a weird argument.

Seems to me like a lot of people would just rather play warriors in this thread tbh.

Yes a lot of abilities work like that, but that's, well, ALSO a problem.

The "WA" part of it isn't a problem per se - the fact that it's a maintenance buff is what's really the issue. You make virtually no decisions about SnD, you simply maintain it with as close to perfect uptime as possible, the end. The edge cases of "the boss will disappear in 3 seconds" or whatever are minuscule margins that most often don't actually matter overall. There's practically no skill ceiling with SnD, all you need to do is not refresh it too early and not let it drop off, which is almost trivially easy to do. It involves no other decisions, and effectively amounts to "press this button once every X seconds, no matter what". That's about as boring as it gets for rotations, and something many people want to move AWAY from (on all classes). To make matters worse, the way it increases your damage isn't even very visible, because it just generates more autoattack hits. It could not be more boring, iconic or not.

[Mozu]

The "WA" part of it isn't a problem per se - the fact that it's a maintenance buff is what's really the issue. You make virtually no decisions about SnD, you simply maintain it with as close to perfect uptime as possible, the end.

Again, this is how most abilities in wow work. There's not any decision to be made about pressing eviscerate either (any more than snd, anyway), but I hope you're not advocating for it to be pruned. Not every ability needs to have a huge decision every time you press it in order for it to add depth to the rotation.

Maintaining 100% uptime on snd while being efficient in all other aspects of your rotation is harder than most people in this thread give it credit. The proof is in warcraftlogs with a lot of rogues unable to do it.

The skill to juggle that aspect of the rotation is what adds depth. Depth = better rotation. It's concerning that a not-insignificant portion of players feel it's better to prune further.

[BeepBoo]

The skill to juggle that aspect of the rotation is what adds depth. Depth = better rotation. It's concerning that a not-insignificant portion of players feel it's better to prune further.

In a game where the apm is down below 60 now thanks to GCD changes and lots of other garbage (like having to intentionally target haste as your main secondary if you actually want to get high levels to make a difference), maintenance debuffs are just delayed gratification that takes a slot of something most people would rather press to see those sweet sweet big numbers.

It's far more skillful to have high APM coupled with lots of procs that ensure you have to make tough choices on the fly IMO. Maintenance is just "press it whenever it gets close to disappearing."

If people like that kind of thing, cool, but it shouldn't ever be the definitive "best" playstyle, save for maybe warlock since they've always historically been maintenance management.

[Biomega]

Again, this is how most abilities in wow work. There's not any decision to be made about pressing eviscerate either (any more than snd, anyway), but I hope you're not advocating for it to be pruned. Not every ability needs to have a huge decision every time you press it in order for it to add depth to the rotation.

You don't press Eviscerate every time you have 5 combo points. Choosing which finisher to press when is how the entire Rogue rotation works. But you pretty much do press SnD every time it's about to fall off. The criticism is precisely that it DOESN'T add appreciable degrees of depth to the rotation - it mainly adds complexity (one more button to press) rather than depth. The actual decision-making involved in SnD is both minimal and trivial (given the generous margins). The reason you don't usually see 100% uptime is simply that you usually don't have 100% uptime on the boss in general, and refreshing SnD while you're not attacking makes little sense.

In addition, the problem is, that it's largely passive and poorly visible damage. Eviscerate shows up very visibly. It's easy to identify as a source of damage. SnD is not.

Is SnD marginally more involved than equipping a trinket or corruption piece? Yes. Does it add actually meaningful decisions to the rotation? Almost never.

You want people to make ACTUAL decisions, not just "press this button every time it's up/about to fall off". And don't say "well other classes have abilities like that, too" because that's true and also a problem. Maintenance buffs are bad design. We've been trying to get away from them, which is why they removed SnD in the first place. Now suddenly people want it back? This feels like the whole thing with returning to daily quests after we finally got rid of them in favor of WQs.

[Mozu]

You don't press Eviscerate every time you have 5 combo points. Choosing which finisher to press when is how the entire Rogue rotation works. But you pretty much do press SnD every time it's about to fall off. The criticism is precisely that it DOESN'T add appreciable degrees of depth to the rotation

And you don't press SnD every time you have 5 combo points either. It's not as if snd is magically about to fall off every time you have 5cp. Say you're at 5 cp but you believe (read: have to make an in the moment choice) you have enough time to squeeze in an evis before getting 5cp again for another snd based on current energy regen or procs. That's called meaningful decisions. You're purposely underplaying decision making with snd to fit your narrative, which is disingenuous. It absolutely adds appreciable degrees of depth.

In addition, the problem is, that it's largely passive and poorly visible damage. Eviscerate shows up very visibly. It's easy to identify as a source of damage. SnD is not.

So? Unsure why this is a problem other than wanting to complain about something. There's plenty visibility in your end dps and uptime %s.

Maintenance buffs are bad design. We've been trying to get away from them, which is why they removed SnD in the first place.

Source on this that isn't your own opinion? Maintenance buffs are easy to prune to make rotations easier, and Blizzard has been trying to cater to people who want easier everything in WoW - I believe that is why they were removed. Not because they are inherently bad design. The fact that people are asking for them back disproves "bad design" nonsense narrative anyway.

Again, it seems like you just would rather be playing a warrior or some spec that doesn't require anything other than whack-a-mole rotations.

[shoegazing]

As is clear in this thread, many of do in fact find that it meaningfully improves the rotation. And many of us additionally feel that it is an ICONIC Rogue ability and bringing it back will help us reconnect with the class that we love.

An interesting point to me, is how different the perspective is on this forum, vs. on the official WoW Rogue forums. If you look at the feedback on SnD returning over there, it is overwhelmingly (90+%) positive.

Now suddenly people want it back?

I wanted it back the same day Blizzard announced they would prune it - I never wanted it pruned in the first place.

The only reason Blizzard ever pruned it to begin with is that they privileged the feedback of a narrow group of players who are far more focused on "the rotation" in a raid environment than the playerbase as a whole.

[Kaver]

No. Slice and Dice with Energetic Recovery converts combo points into energy, which in turn gets converted back into combo points.

It increases the pace of gameplay in a way the player can actually feel. Not only can you feel faster white attacks, you can feel the increased energy regeneration.

SoD has none of these qualities.

But right now the new version of SnD that all specs will get, does not have Energy Recovery included? It only says 50% increased attack speed:

NEW Slice and Dice: Finishing move that consumes combo points to increase attack speed by 50%. Lasts longer per combo point.
1 point : 12 seconds
2 points: 18 seconds
3 points: 24 seconds
4 points: 30 seconds
5 points: 36 seconds


- - - Updated - - -

As others have already mentioned, regardless of what changes are made, those changes will inevitably be balanced around. So I honestly fail to see why commenting on performance is relevant at all. Blizzard is of course going to balance the performance of the class around having this ability baseline, so that the class is somewhat in line with the other classes.

If you look back in this thread you will se that it was actually ME who said this. I am the "others" you mention. So I 100 % agree. I said multiple times in this thread that the implementation of SnD will not impact ovarall performance of the Rogue specs because Blizzard will balance around it

But your earlier argument about not always using 5 CP on SnD was based on performance my friend. To have a meaningful choice you need to have a meaningful outcome. And if your choice doesn't impact performance, then nobody is going to care about the choice in the first place. This was my point about your argument. To have engaging mechanics you need those mechanics to matter. If the difference between using 3 CP on SnD opposite to using 5 CP isn't significant then it's not an impactful choice as you described it to be.

- - - Updated - - -

The question that needs to be answered is whether the change makes the class feel more fun to play for you, or not. Because the performance aspect of the change is practically irrelevant in this context.

And this was my concern all along. Because if SnD is simply going to be a "increase attack speed by 50%", then I don't see how it will make the class more fun. There needs to be more to it. If it also increase Energy Recovery and made the overall gameplay of the class faster, then I would like it more.

[Kyarxadron]

It's not that hard to imagine a situation where you would not recast SnD right away or where you would do it early. So yes, SnD does indeed adds, mybe not so much, but still depth.

[capma]

Slice and Dice is just another weakaura on your screen.
WE WANT USEFUL ABILITIES BLIZZARD!

I want to slap you but I don't want to get stupid on my hand

[niztheundead87]

while the return of snd adds a bit it doesnt fix the wrongs of the spec , i will be thrrowing an unpopular opinion here but it would be better if they went with more spec specific abilities rather than just adding old stuff back for the sake of saying they gave it back.

they could either fix rtb more and make it less rng-ish , give baseline cannonball barage etc.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

Maintenance buffs simply suck.

The word 'maintenance' says it all. Its such crappy game design.

[Katchii]

If you look back in this thread you will se that it was actually ME who said this. I am the "others" you mention. So I 100 % agree. I said multiple times in this thread that the implementation of SnD will not impact ovarall performance of the Rogue specs because Blizzard will balance around it

I thought it was you, but looked (not very hard honestly) and didn't find the post.

But your earlier argument about not always using 5 CP on SnD was based on performance my friend. To have a meaningful choice you need to have a meaningful outcome. And if your choice doesn't impact performance, then nobody is going to care about the choice in the first place. This was my point about your argument. To have engaging mechanics you need those mechanics to matter. If the difference between using 3 CP on SnD opposite to using 5 CP isn't significant then it's not an impactful choice as you described it to be.

It's a damage buff, of course it impacts your performance. The arguments are seperate. One argument is saying it shouldn't be added because it's going to be balanced around and therefore won't improve or really change Rogue's ability to do damage, which is true. The other is saying, OK it HAS been added, so because the game is now balanced around you using it, your overall performance will be impacted by it so you better know how to use it right.

Effective and optimal usage of damage buffs, is a pretty common hallmark of the difference between good and bad players. Fights are rarely so straight forward that you just walk up to the enemy and stay glued to them until they die, and in the cases where that DOES happen, the enemy doesn't normally stay alive for long enough to make a 5 CP SnD worth it over using just enough CP's on it, and using the rest on high damage finishers.

Starting the fight with a couple quick attacks to get ~2-4 CP's depending on crits and talents, and activating SnD as quickly as possible so you get the buff as soon as possible would be more optimal than waiting for 5 CP's and then using it....but only if you're going to be on the mob long enough for the extra damage from SnD to amount to more than a fully loaded Eviscerate (or whatever your specs high damage finisher is).

There IS a choice there. It's not necessarily meant to be a big one, just something else to do and be mindful of that affects your game play and the flow of combat for the Rogue.

And this was my concern all along. Because if SnD is simply going to be a "increase attack speed by 50%", then I don't see how it will make the class more fun. There needs to be more to it. If it also increase Energy Recovery and made the overall gameplay of the class faster, then I would like it more.

No argument there, but up until Legion patch 7.1.5 Slice and Dice had never done anything more than simply increase your attack speed. So this iteration is a return to the roots of the ability.

That said, I'm 100% with you on wanting the ability to also increase energy regeneration as that would have a profoundly more impactful effect on Rogue gameplay than just an attack speed buff.

[shoegazing]

But right now the new version of SnD that all specs will get, does not have Energy Recovery included? It only says 50% increased attack speed:

NEW Slice and Dice: Finishing move that consumes combo points to increase attack speed by 50%. Lasts longer per combo point.
1 point : 12 seconds
2 points: 18 seconds
3 points: 24 seconds
4 points: 30 seconds
5 points: 36 seconds

It sounds like you agree with me that Blizzard is not going nearly far enough with unpruning the Rogue class and needs to bring back Energetic Recovery as well.

I also argue that Premeditation should return to support SnD in Subtlety's kit.

[Casperite]

You'd think it is, because it is, but I think you underestimate just how bad some people are at this game. I saw plenty of rogues over the years never using it at all back in the day, I played one myself and was rather hardcore back in those days, so it was very easy to notice. And I didn't mean just slice and dice. I said maintenance buffs.

Also proper utilization is more than just up time. Also also, unless you can SnD in stealth and generate combo points before hand, 100% up time is more or less impossible unless you carry the buff over from trash, which can't always happen if you're doing progression. This doesn't really matter at all, I just like being technical.

Either way, just because you and I find it easy, doesn't mean others do. That's a bad way to look at this game. There are people who have trouble understanding the basics, or simply don't want to. They do exist.

But your original post compared "casuals and big guys", a very narcissistic view that anyone that plays casual isn't nearly as good as you are. Casual does not equal bad. Usually just means they have a life outside the game.

[Kaver]

It sounds like you agree with me that Blizzard is not going nearly far enough with unpruning the Rogue class and needs to bring back Energetic Recovery as well.

I also argue that Premeditation should return to support SnD in Subtlety's kit.

I definitely think that if Blizzard brings SnD back they shouldn't bring back some weird half-arsed version of it which only increases attack speed and nothing else.

[Saltysquidoon]

2013 MMO champion Make SND refresh on eviscerate like envenom, snd should be combat only

2016 - Now Mathematically dead talent

Shadowlands I love maintenance buffs, please papa Ion I want my rotation to be worse, I couldn't play a rogue without SnD, Pressing a button with zero interaction with the rest of my kit is the most masterful display of skill available to a rogue player

I can't even...

[shoegazing]

2013 MMO champion Make SND refresh on eviscerate like envenom, snd should be combat only

2016 - Now Mathematically dead talent

Shadowlands I love maintenance buffs, please papa Ion I want my rotation to be worse, I couldn't play a rogue without SnD, Pressing a button with zero interaction with the rest of my kit is the most masterful display of skill available to a rogue player

I can't even...

I never asked for SnD to be pruned because I'm not a lazy clown who enjoys pressing only Eviscerate as a finisher.

It's hilarious that you seem to think that the people who want it back are the same people who wanted it gone in the first place. We aren't.

[Volatilis]

I dont really care about slice n dice either way. If its in the game or if its not, it doesnt matter. Its literally just another button to press.

I just get annoyed with blizzards new development strategy post MoP.

Take things away then return them and act like its new content and we should fall over ourselves thanking them for listening to us. Its not. I would have rather seen a new talent row than getting SnD back for a start.

[Critical92]

Energetic Recovery currently exists even on live.
It is baked into ShT. When you proc a cp you also get 8 energy. SnD will enhance this effect because faster attack speed means more cp procs = more 8 energy procs.
Don't get me wrong, i would welcome it if we get HaT back and the 8 energy back to SnD, but currently it is tied to ShT. Sadly ShT only works when autoattacking something unlike HaT and SnD.

For Outlaw SnD boosts Maingauche procs.

Only Assa gets more Poison procs out of SnD and nothing else.