Shadowlands is the "players were right" expansion.

[Sarkol]

I think it's hilarious that heaps of the talents are still the same.

There are still completely dead rows where you will still pick the exact same talent 99% of the time.

Unless there is balancing to be done then the talents are still a complete mess.



Ion claimed that if something was chosen by the majority of the players of a spec then he would baseline it.

Newsflash. Almost every single spec has this problem with 85%+ choosing a single talent on a row.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...thknight/frost

Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with large differences in talent power. The reason why most players all choose the same thing is that once a top build is established to be 0.5% ahead of the next one, everyone picks it. That's not to say a lot of rows aren't in need of balance, but it's not always about that.

[huth]

Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with large differences in talent power. The reason why most players all choose the same thing is that once a top build is established to be 0.5% ahead of the next one, everyone picks it. That's not to say a lot of rows aren't in need of balance, but it's not always about that.

It doesn't even have to actually be better, there just has to be a sufficiently large group of people that believe it is. Patchwerk sims are particularly guilty here.

[Sarkol]

It doesn't even have to actually be better, there just has to be a sufficiently large group of people that believe it is. Patchwerk sims are particularly guilty here.

Yep. What Blizzard actually needs to do though is tune active talents to always be better than passives, then we might have a good decision to make. Is this talent better? Yes, but it's harder to play. Then there's more of a real choice there.

[Laughingjack]

I agree, so low they can't even post them or it'll scare the investors away.

There's a reason they don't post subs anymore, Blizzard have always been proud of their big numbers and have a huge ego. If they have 10+ mill subs, they aren't going to NOT fucking brag about it lol..

They stopped when subs were super duper low and never posted them since.

I think another aspect of it is they don't really want to reveal just how much their model now relies on micro transactions to match its old earnings.

[Beefhammer]

I do remember the patch 3.3 heroics being harder on release than any of the original Wrath heroics, and that seems to be what you're talking about, so maybe you and I agree to some extent. However, I was really talking only about the ones that shipped with the game (patch 3.0.2).

Then you exclusively ran with friends or a competent group of raiders, because launch heroics were group killers until 3.1.

[DemonDays]

Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with large differences in talent power. The reason why most players all choose the same thing is that once a top build is established to be 0.5% ahead of the next one, everyone picks it. That's not to say a lot of rows aren't in need of balance, but it's not always about that.

That's because the top builds are so largely unbalanced that you'd be outright stupid to pick anything else. Those choices are also almost always some old ability that used to be baseline and feels integral to make the class feel complete.

Some throughput talent choices are 10-15% stronger than their counterparts in ALL forms of content.

Blizzard has never balanced anything to within 0.5%, ever. This is part of the reason Covenant abilities will fail.

You would hope that they are still going to do balance passes on talents because they've changed almost nothing.

[Nicholaes92]

Yep. What Blizzard actually needs to do though is tune active talents to always be better than passives, then we might have a good decision to make. Is this talent better? Yes, but it's harder to play. Then there's more of a real choice there.

Classes have never been and will never be 'hard' to play, so making an active way better just because it's 'harder' is silly.

[DemonDays]

It doesn't even have to actually be better, there just has to be a sufficiently large group of people that believe it is. Patchwerk sims are particularly guilty here.

Nah. Because if they were better balanced - there would be an actual choice involved. Closer to a choice.

Or we could just leave talent trees alone for a full 2 year expansion cycle like they did in BfA.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve.../priest/shadow HAHAHAHAHAHA

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...ts/demonhunter HELLL YEAAAAH

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...ock/affliction ROFL

^I'd be ashamed if I was a Class Designer in WoW. Ashamed.

[Swnem]

It's strange. I can't get excited when the devs are simply backtracking in some issues they created for no good reason at all. It took them years to do so as well, ignoring fan feedback and droves of players leaving.

Still, core issues are not fixed. Classes just got some classic wheels, but the depth still isn't there.
The basic rotations are still there. No new abilities being added to rotations as far as i can see, only the return of old nostalgic and niche abilities.
Flying is still not an unlockable at launch.
Rental powers still seem to be a thing. No permanent progression (like new abilities or talent rows). No reward for leveling.

So, yeah, they backtracked on some things for now, but have they really learned their lesson? I think the AoE changes say "no". Another change no one wished for, much like the GCD changes wich will make the gameplay more restrictive and less fun.

So, i'm sorry i'm not gullable enough to think anything has truly changed. The backlash was just so big, they were forced to change something. But, i don't think their methods have changed and i continue to be terrified at what they will decide to break next by adressing problems only they perceive.
I wish they just went back to creating a fun game first and foremost and stop worrying about the cash cow years in the future and potential bottlenecks. Stop taking us for granted!

[huth]

Nah. Because if they were better balanced - there would be an actual choice involved. Closer to a choice.

Or we could just leave talent trees alone for a full 2 year expansion cycle like they did in BfA.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve.../priest/shadow HAHAHAHAHAHA

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...ts/demonhunter HELLL YEAAAAH

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...ock/affliction ROFL

^I'd be ashamed if I was a Class Designer in WoW. Ashamed.

Your data shows precisely what i said; If there's a sufficiently large crowd claiming a build as best, nearly everybody will follow it. It does not, however, show whether that has anything to do with what build is actually best for any particular purpose.

[Mrbleedinggums]

They've backflipped on almost all their egregious design choices.

Almost everything every level headed person has been saying is wrong with the game is getting fixed in Shadowlands. It's almost like Ion and his legion of fanboys were wrong the whole time.

Let loot be loot.
Vendors and currencies back for PvP.
No titanforging or shitty RNG system of any kind.
Un-pruning classes.
Craftable legendaries.
Making professions matter again.
Less loot will drop making loot more meaningful - no more vendoring thousands of epics every expansion.
Potential return of class themed sets.

World of Warcraft: Shadowlands. ("Please stop leaving our game, you were right.")


I mean there is still some shit things like we don't know much about Anima Power(AP) and the Covenant abilities can NEVER be balanced(Blizzard is dogshit at balancing).

At this point though it turns out the Blizz Defenders were wrong. It's too early to celebrate but from a pessimist at least they're saying all the right things. Ion is a pathological liar though so only time will tell.

If the Covenant abilities are only available on outdoor world and not in raids/dungeons, I don't care if they're not balanced personally. Even if it's not top-tier sim, I'll choose what I find to be the most enjoyable for my playstyle. Also, no reason to shit on previous designs as if to make a strawman that nobody enjoyed them. I didn't mind the titanforging as it allowed replayability and gave that chance of "oh look an upgrade when doing this dungeon or farm boss!". I do feel like they should have given a bad luck protection with it though like how currency/medal vendors were. Didn't get that titanforged item? Well you get X amount of Y currency. Turn in Z amount of Y currency and this NPC will upgrade your currently equipped item +5 ilvl for you!

The core concept of Titanforging/Warforging was commendable as it prevented sweeping nerfs to the bosses as you would eventually get stronger even after doing your farm bosses.

[Obelisk Kai]

No, just no. If they don't try to add new things, reinvent things it will be stagnant and people will leave. People are already leaving because they feel like its the same thing over and over. The whole point of a new expansion is to try new system, add new things, readjust things. Just adding new zones, quests, stories is nothing and is basically just an over glorified patch. A ton of people won't buy an expansion when they know it is something they can just put into a patch.

Which goes back to the idea of "just because vocal minority thinks it is good for the game doesn't mean it is."

Doing things exactly the same for multiple expansions gets old and boring. Toghast could be a major hit, if they repeat that in the following expansion interest will very likely drop sharply because it's a "been there, done that" thing. Which means people will only do it for the rewards and stop.



Then either next expansion or the one after, people like you will be saying how BFA was a great expansion, why can't we go back to then. It never fails. Every expansion has been through this. Even Cata and WoD the people who said it sucked and hated it now like it and miss it.

Entirely disagree. People may leave World of Warcraft because it gets stale but I guarantee you far more people have left the game because the latest 'innovation' turned out to be an unfun mess.

If the base game is fun, if the fundamentals are sound, then it doesn't matter that they are the same expansion after expansion. New content is what people want and if that makes each expansion a glorified patch, so be it. Final Fantasy 14 has adopted this approach, since their relaunch they've not tinkered with the fundamentals and instead delivered a steady stream of content that people actually want to play. The result? Critically acclaimed expansion after critically acclaimed expansion,

Did they need to add their own version of titanforging? Or Warforging? Or Legendary weapons? Or Artifacts? Or Azerite armour? No, they stuck doggedly with a basic design that they knew worked and they just keep churning out content in that template.

In contrast every other expansion the WoW devs go off the rails. What has their endless experimentation wrought beyond negative experiences? How can you argue innovation for the sake of it is a good thing when what we are cheering in Shadowlands is them reverting to tried and true methods from over a decade ago?

Their innovation keeps failing. Content is king, and if their innovation fails as it has done for two out of past three expansions, content suffers as they try and repair and the damage. The potential cost of these mistakes is not worth it. If what they are doing in Shadowlands actually works, and their reversion to tried and true philosophies augurs well, then from Shadowlands onwards they should just leave well enough alone and stop trying to fix what isn't broken.

I will take a stagnant experience that is fun and entertains with me plentiful, solid content against the latest half baked attempt to make loot interesting rather than rewarding.

There are places they can tinker. There are times they can iterate. But that should be on the edges, not the guts. If the guts work, leave them alone.

- - - Updated - - -

That's the continuous improvement mindset at work for ya. "If it ain't broke, fix it anyway and make it better!" only for things to become worse.

If they had a track record of their continuous improvements actually improving things I'd be more willing to give them a chance. Instead, if by some miracle their reversion to an older design philosophy actually sticks and actually improves the game, they need to leave it alone after that and resist the urge to fix what isn't broken.

Rather than designing a throwaway system for a single patch that overcomplicates gear and which everyone hates, why not design a dungeon instead? Or a questline? Or a special raid boss?

- - - Updated - - -

The only reason WoW has survived as long as it has is BECAUSE it changes so much. Yea, some of the things they've done have absolutely sucked. But others have worked out great.

Games that don't evolve eventually stagnate and die.

MMOs that reach a certain critical mass tend to persist for many years, but no, WoW has not survived as long as it has because it has changed so much. In fact, the amount of change is likely one of the greatest drivers of churn there is and I would wager WoW has lost far more people because of changes that didn't work than have left because they felt it was stagnant.

Stagnation in the core systems is not an issue if the core systems are solid and new content keeps coming. Innovation is an issue if it fails as often as WoW innovation has failed and as a result, leads to new content being cut back or even cancelled. 8.3 being pared back and 8.3.5 being cut was the result of them running out of time in the BFA life cycle. And why did they run out of time? Because Azerite armor was such a clusterfuck at launch the majority of their development time in the first months was spent trying to fix it and then to build the essences system.

That is the price of these failed innovations. It is not a price worth paying.

[FlubberPuddy]

Although difficult to track down, it has been confirmed that master lube is very rarely stocked by vendor https://www.wowhead.com/npc=60762/master-baiter.

I must seek the messiah himself!

[Obelisk Kai]

snip.

Just want to say I agree with your similar interpretation to my own. We don't need new systems if the current one works. More content is always better than a new, over-complicated system.

[FlubberPuddy]

Entirely disagree. People may leave World of Warcraft because it gets stale but I guarantee you far more people have left the game because the latest 'innovation' turned out to be an unfun mess.

This bit is wrong. The game has lost far more people because MMOs are not as popular as they once were.

Blizzard already confirmed that people were leaving the game in large amounts even in Wrath. It's just even more people were still coming in that made it seem like the game was retaining every player who first began playing it.

That was also a time when MMOs were "the thing" for online multiplayer gaming and social interaction. Nowadays the landscape has changed so much, many more online multiplayer games with social interaction being easier than before and more genres than ever before means MMOs have become far more niche than "these are the games you play if you wanna play with others online.

Not innovating would not have changed that.

[Obelisk Kai]

This bit is wrong. The game has lost far more people because MMOs are not as popular as they once were.

Blizzard already confirmed that people were leaving the game in large amounts even in Wrath. It's just even more people were still coming in that made it seem like the game was retaining every player who first began playing it.

That was also a time when MMOs were "the thing" for online multiplayer gaming and social interaction. Nowadays the landscape has changed so much, many more online multiplayer games with social interaction being easier than before and more genres than ever before means MMOs have become far more niche than "these are the games you play if you wanna play with others online.

Not innovating would not have changed that.

The point of that response was contrasting innovation against it's opposite, not fixing what isn't broken. It was not to determine what the number one cause for players leaving is.

[Cainium]

Not innovating would not have changed that.

It depends. If the MMORPGs would still be what they used to be, maybe they would do better?

Not only the amount of players is "massive", but RPGs in general are "massive" games and do not play well with quick 15 minutes of "fun". Thats what arcade games are for. Is it a good idea when arcade games start rising again to abondon the fundamentals of the RPG genre to become more arcadish while driving away those who want a RPG?

I'm not so sure about that. Trying to satisfy everone will usually satisfy noone.

[plz delete account]

They've backflipped on almost all their egregious design choices.

Almost everything every level headed person has been saying is wrong with the game is getting fixed in Shadowlands. It's almost like Ion and his legion of fanboys were wrong the whole time.

Let loot be loot.
Vendors and currencies back for PvP.
No titanforging or shitty RNG system of any kind.
Un-pruning classes.
Craftable legendaries.
Making professions matter again.
Less loot will drop making loot more meaningful - no more vendoring thousands of epics every expansion.
Potential return of class themed sets.

World of Warcraft: Shadowlands. ("Please stop leaving our game, you were right.")


I mean there is still some shit things like we don't know much about Anima Power(AP) and the Covenant abilities can NEVER be balanced(Blizzard is dogshit at balancing).

At this point though it turns out the Blizz Defenders were wrong. It's too early to celebrate but from a pessimist at least they're saying all the right things. Ion is a pathological liar though so only time will tell.

Anima power isn't a thing in Shadowlands.

[pfbe]

That was also a time when MMOs were "the thing" for online multiplayer gaming and social interaction. Nowadays the landscape has changed so much, many more online multiplayer games with social interaction being easier than before and more genres than ever before means MMOs have become far more niche than "these are the games you play if you wanna play with others online.

Yeah, there were a few major changes to the market that people (and I dont just mean on here, I mean everywhere, even in the industry) seem to not mention when talking about the decline of mmo's, specifically:

a) Consoles went online, with a massive focus on online FPS and Sports games (fast, quick paced, get in get out experiences).
b) Tablets and smartphones became (casual) gaming and social platforms
c) both of the above brough massive numbers of new consumers to the "online gaming" market who had no interest in mmorpg's, namely children and casual adult players.

Children alone account for such a ridiculously large part of today's development trends.

[FlubberPuddy]

The point of that response was contrasting innovation against it's opposite, not fixing what isn't broken. It was not to determine what the number one cause for players leaving is.

You were trying to use innovation as "the far more likely reason people have left the game" as if they had not innovated it would have kept more players. I am showing that argument is false, with what Blizzard has already stated and that the landscape of the online gaming environment has changed.

Essentially I'm saying you can't pin them innovating as the reason for why people have left and why innovating isn't something they should do.