It's Time To Do Away With The Holy Trinity

[Hellobolis]

45 minutes queue time for dps is not broken at all, right ?

they should change the tooltip: "expected queue time 45minutes, you can do a m0 in that time!" "expected queue time 45minuntes, press here to look for a normal group!" :P

the only counterargument to that is admitting the problems are caused by the community, not the game.

[Grimbold21]

The point of the holy trinity is for the tank to get threat and thereby get hit and need the heals.

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I'd argue it is broken. There aren't enough tanks, ever. 16 years of tank shortages are enough to conclude we have a problem.

The shortage of tanks isn't tied to the holy trinity

[Accendor]

It really is not

[Ashenhoof]

I agree with you. Healing and support is important and that gameplay style should be part of the design.

And I only like to tank what about me, eh? Tanking is also important and should be part of the design.

So in the end we have heal, tank and dps... Lets call it the trinity pillar of mmorpgs?

In a social game, the community attitude and the design are inseperable.

Yeah, that's bullshit and if you really believe that, then there is clearly something wrong with you.

[Flurryfang]

The holy trinity of: Take damage, deal damage, heal damage, is still true in WoW. There is no reason to deal away with it, primarily because it is what makes WoW....well, WoW.

Threat had nothing to do with it, it was just an way for tanks to do something engaging in combat when their role was not do DPS. Now, tanking is much more about mitigating that damage, so threat is not that important anymore.

[Niroshi]

I don't think I'd still be playing WoW were we to move away from the holy trinity. That unspoken teamwork is about the only teamwork remaining in this game for most players.

[Lochton]

The mechanics that made the holy trinity work are mostly long gone (threat management). Right now, the holy trinity is a vestigial appendage that only serves to make it more difficult for people to get into the content. It also restricts design decisions by making bosses hit so hard that you need tanks and healers, preventing creative solutions to encounters.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't have classes with tank and healer toolkits, but those roles should be altered to fit a model that does not require them.

No thanks.

There is other MMO's for that.

[ClassicPeon]

The mechanics that made the holy trinity work are mostly long gone (threat management). Right now, the holy trinity is a vestigial appendage that only serves to make it more difficult for people to get into the content. It also restricts design decisions by making bosses hit so hard that you need tanks and healers, preventing creative solutions to encounters.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't have classes with tank and healer toolkits, but those roles should be altered to fit a model that does not require them.

No. Just no.

Tanking has evolved into a more survival focused meta instead of a threat generating one.

The holy trinity is one of the things that keep wow interesting and content relevant

[NineSpine]

And I only like to tank what about me, eh? Tanking is also important and should be part of the design.

So in the end we have heal, tank and dps... Lets call it the trinity pillar of mmorpgs?

Yeah, tank specs should exist to. I didn't say to get rid of specs. I said to get rid of designing content around the necessity of those specs.

Yeah, that's bullshit and if you really believe that, then there is clearly something wrong with you.

It's not bullshit. It's a fact. The design goes hand in hand with how people choose to play the game. The idea that the game is designed in a vacuum without any thought put into "How will people play this in regards to other players?" is absurd.

[Duroga]

Tankshortage is a design Problem:
For a Dungeon you need 1 Tank 1 Heal 3 DPS
For a M-Raid you need 2 Tank 4 Heal 14 DPS (+-)

Now make the Math and You see the Problem, why there ist a Tank Shortage

And of course the biggest Problem is why there is a Tank shortage:
The toxic and shitty Pug-Players. I just tried a Paladin Tank in Timewalker
and in one Run the Heal was pulling, in the next one the warrior stampeded throug the dungeon,
so the mage was forced to pull too, because he didn't wan't to stay behind.
I wasn't pulling because i explained the Dungeon to some newones.

I did 2 Dungeons as Tank and switched back to heal.
Ok I could pull the whole dungeon, but that is not the point.
I tank and therefore i control the clock.
I would love to tank on my main, but I am So afraid of the toxic dps,
that I don't.

I Used to palatank during bc and I loved it.

[Dundebuns]

GW2 tried to do away with the holy trinity at the start, but you could argue there was stilla trinity of archetypes still; control, support and damage dealers.

You have to just face it; it is a part of the current MMO genre and the game is built upon those three integral roles. You couldn't remove them without extensive design changes. If you don't like it then there are a vareity of other RPG's out there that may take your fancy.

[schwank05]

I'd rather see more support classes added the bolster those roles. I don't mind being a buff bot if it's engaging.

Yes, I have been saying this for years I would love to see some support class/ specs that don't do DPS like a Dps and dont heal. But rather some form of Bard where they buff players and debuff boses with things like banners or something that increases haste/ crit/ primary stats. An arrow that shot at the boss increases leech by 30% for everyone in the raid for 10 seconds or things like that would be a blast.

[NineSpine]

Yes, I have been saying this for years I would love to see some support class/ specs that don't do DPS like a Dps and dont heal. But rather some form of Bard where they buff players and debuff boses with things like banners or something that increases haste/ crit/ primary stats. An arrow that shot at the boss increases leech by 30% for everyone in the raid for 10 seconds or things like that would be a blast.

The trinity design completely prevents that from happening. Look what happened when they tried to make Disc a hybrid role.

[tangers58]

The mechanics that made the holy trinity work are mostly long gone (threat management). Right now, the holy trinity is a vestigial appendage that only serves to make it more difficult for people to get into the content. It also restricts design decisions by making bosses hit so hard that you need tanks and healers, preventing creative solutions to encounters.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't have classes with tank and healer toolkits, but those roles should be altered to fit a model that does not require them.

How about no.

When swtor made flashpoints role agnostic it completely killed them, used to love their dungeons D=

[NineSpine]

How about no

Constructive input.

[zlygork]

I am not the kneejerky type, but as a healer, that is a sure way of having be unsub for a final time.

There is no such thing as "optional tank/healer" people will always go for more DPS in such circumstances. See Island Expeditions.

[Hellobolis]

The trinity design completely prevents that from happening. Look what happened when they tried to make Disc a hybrid role.

no damage meters prevent that particular thing from happening. it's very hard to make a bard style support class feel impactful to play. they only really work in slower paced games/games where you control multiple characters. and ofc they run into the same kind of problems healers do when trying to play solo.

[NineSpine]

I am not the kneejerky type, but as a healer, that is a sure way of having be unsub for a final time.

There is no such thing as "optional tank/healer" people will always go for more DPS in such circumstances. See Island Expeditions.

Island expeditions are designed to allow smash-your-face-at-the-aoe-button design.

Content does not need to be designed that way, especially if they start giving mobs actual AI, which is something the trinity precludes.

[Hobbidaggy]

I'd argue it is broken. There aren't enough tanks, ever. 16 years of tank shortages are enough to conclude we have a problem.

Do you know why there is a tank shortage? People are sick and tired of tanking DPS and being treated like crap. If you want tanks treat the tanks better don’t run ahead pulling like crazy because you “want a quick run” and don’t blame others for something you don’t want to do yourself.
Go roll a tank and experience what it’s like and see what I’m talking about. Then you’ll see why the tanks are not tanking anymore and are playing dps instead.

[NineSpine]

no damage meters prevent that particular thing from happening. it's very hard to make a bard style support class feel impactful to play. they only really work in slower paced games/games where you control multiple characters. and ofc they run into the same kind of problems healers do when trying to play solo.

It doesn't work because its support would need to be insanely powerful to warrant losing 1/3 of your DPS people for it. If there are five slots rather than 3 for it to potentially fill thats a very different story.

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Do you know why there is a tank shortage? People are sick and tired of tanking DPS and being treated like crap. If you want tanks treat the tanks better don’t run ahead pulling like crazy because you “want a quick run” and don’t blame others for something you don’t want to do yourself.
Go roll a tank and experience what it’s like and see what I’m talking about. Then you’ll see why the tanks are not tanking anymore and are playing dps instead.

All of that is true, and whining about it isn't going to change it.