Covenants abilities should have been new talents rows

[VinceVega]

If a feature can be swapped at-will, like talents, of course people are going to gravitate toward the meta choices. That's the nature of at-will changes.

Covenants are NOT an at-will change. Comparing it to talents is extremely silly.

A better question is whether people who aren't in the top end change their class whenever the meta changes and the answer is "We all know they don't". Permanent or difficult to change aspects of your character (class, race) don't shift dramatically with the meta among the general playerbase.

I don't even think the average player who really likes one spec switches to another spec if it is performing a little better most of the time.

In fact, you demonstrated the exact problem with making covenants swappable at-will: Everyone will be compelled to max them all out and swap them around in different pieces of content, which sucks and is not a good design at all. By making the choice locked in, you make it like class, something we know the average person does not switch back and forth on.

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Yes, that's why casuals change their class whenever the meta changes. Right?

Yes they will. But i don't think it is bad design. It is just choice. Being locked into one ability the complete addon is just a shitty feeling when you want to do something else or realize in a random BG that the Mage on the other them can silence you forever because he chose another covenant. And no that is not a "tryhard" problem. Everyone will notice stuff like this unless you play all by yourself forever. I welcome choice in the game. For me they could even make the covenants non switchable. As long as there is no real power behind it but only cosmetics or open world stuff.

But we are talking in circles. Just let it be what it is. You won't agree with anyone here and i won't agree with you. We both think the other is wrong. Nothing will change that at this point.

[NineSpine]

Yes they will. But i don't think it is bad design. It is just choice. Being locked into one ability the complete addon is just a shitty feeling when you want to do something else or realize in a random BG that the Mage on the other them can silence you forever because he chose another covenant. And no that is not a "tryhard" problem. Everyone will notice stuff like this unless you play all by yourself forever. I welcome choice in the game. For me they could even make the covenants non switchable. As long as there is no real power behind it but only cosmetics or open world stuff.

But we are talking in circles. Just let it be what it is. You won't agree with anyone here and i won't agree with you. We both think the other is wrong. Nothing will change that at this point.

Everything you are saying applies to class. What if I pick a caster with less silences than a mage??? It will feel bad when I go up against a mage! All because I chose a different class!

This is why you ignored my point completely and tried to avoid the class issue.

"I welcome choice as long as the choice doesn't matter" is a laughable statement. I don't even know how you say such a thing with a straight face. You just don't want to state the obvious fact: You don't want choices that matter. You don't want dinner to be "Pizza or hamburger?" You want "What color box do you want your pizza to come in?" And then you pretend that you want choice just as much as the person that wants an actual menu.

Plenty of people here agree with me.

Don't try to run away just because your argument is starting to look very weak.

[VinceVega]

Everything you are saying applies to class. What if I pick a caster with less silences than a mage??? It will feel bad when I go up against a mage! All because I chose a different class!

This is why you ignored my point completely and tried to avoid the class issue.

"I welcome choice as long as the choice doesn't matter" is a laughable statement. I don't even know how you say such a thing with a straight face. You just don't want to state the obvious fact: You don't want choices that matter. You don't want dinner to be "Pizza or hamburger?" You want "What color box do you want your pizza to come in?" And then you pretend that you want choice just as much as the person that wants an actual menu.

Plenty of people here agree with me.

Don't try to run away just because your argument is starting to look very weak.

You are such a troll^^
I don't care anymore.

[ErrandRunner]

Blizzard has a history of making superficially pleasing features that are good for the current expansion but have no depth or longevity into the future. Covenants seems just like another one to add to their long list.

[M1r4g3]

Everything you are saying applies to class. What if I pick a caster with less silences than a mage??? It will feel bad when I go up against a mage! All because I chose a different class!

This is why you ignored my point completely and tried to avoid the class issue.

"I welcome choice as long as the choice doesn't matter" is a laughable statement. I don't even know how you say such a thing with a straight face. You just don't want to state the obvious fact: You don't want choices that matter. You don't want dinner to be "Pizza or hamburger?" You want "What color box do you want your pizza to come in?" And then you pretend that you want choice just as much as the person that wants an actual menu.

Plenty of people here agree with me.

Don't try to run away just because your argument is starting to look very weak.

Permanent choices have no place in competitive games, which, sadly, wow has become over the last few years.

[NineSpine]

Permanent choices have no place in competitive games, which, sadly, wow has become over the last few years.

Class is a permanent choice though, so the idea that the game could be competitive was always a farse.

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You are such a troll^^
I don't care anymore.

That's because your argument fell apart entirely.

[infinitemeridian]

Media coverage is even more important, than reality itself. This is why propaganda and all sorts of fake news are so prevalent nowadays.

Back to WoW.

Who people look up to? Competitive scene and content creators. You have to offer something to the viewers, because nobody is interested to watch casuals wipe in LFR.
(If you want to argue, that 1% of skilled players don't matter — remember HoTs. Blizzard spend millions of dollars on it, but competetive scene still died, because people had nobody to look up to — the game was too team-based and didn't have much space for personal skill. I really liked HoTs, I was casual in it, and, ironically, lack of proper competitive scene fucking killed the game I, casually played. HoTs has almost no support now, no new maps, no new heroes, it is a fucking potato now).

Imagine. Shadowlands is live. Most likely covenant's balance is a hot dumpster fire. Low skill casuals do just fine...but they don't create media. Competetive players do and other people look up to them. Negative coverage all over the media. Casuals watch it, and, a lot of them mindlessly join it. Hot dumpster fire is even hotter now. Ion sighs and flips the switch he talked about in a recent interview.

The end.

HoTS was built and marketed from the ground up to be a competitive e-sports game. WoW was not, and had it's most successful days when people didn't have others like streamers and youtubers to "look up to".

[Geckoo]

HoTS was built and marketed from the ground up to be a competitive e-sports game. WoW was not, and had it's most successful days when people didn't have others like streamers and youtubers to "look up to".

We didn't have youtubers and streamers mostly because youtube, twitch... streaming as a concept was not something most people did or followed as they do today. It's a 15 year old game after all, did twitch even exist?.

But that doesn't mean that we didn't have other ways to look up to what other players did and had influence for everyone else. Theorycrafting has always been a thing, you had very specialized websties to look up to what was best (Elitist jerks is a great example, considering that the current game director was part of it), a game without transmog was also a game where you could easily recognize what other players had killed just by looking at them and inspecting those players was also something people did. The race for world fist existed, pvp ladders existed, the armory existed...

[NineSpine]

We didn't have youtubers and streamers mostly because youtube, twitch... streaming as a concept was not something most people did or followed as they do today. It's a 15 year old game after all, did twitch even exist?.

But that doesn't mean that we didn't have other ways to look up to what other players did and had influence for everyone else. Theorycrafting has always been a thing, you had very specialized websties to look up to what was best (Elitist jerks is a great example, considering that the current game director was part of it), a game without transmog was also a game where you could easily recognize what other players had killed just by looking at them and inspecting those players was also something people did. The race for world fist existed, pvp ladders existed, the armory existed...

You are confusing the existence of a fringe with the fringe dominating the design and direction of the game.

[Depakote]

My data is that the class composition of players is extremely consistent. It doesn't shift dramatically every patch or even every expansion.

But you have provided no data.

[NineSpine]

But you have provided no data.

Do you actually need me to show you that classes don’t disappear and other classes suddenly become a third of the population and those classes change based on the meta?

Do you really need to waste both of our time by requesting proof that that doesn’t happen?

[Depakote]

Do you actually need me to show you that classes don’t disappear and other classes suddenly become a third of the population and those classes change based on the meta?

Do you really need to waste both of our time by requesting proof that that doesn’t happen?

Yes actually. Have proof of your claims or don't make them. That's usually how things work.

[NineSpine]

Yes actually. Have proof of your claims or don't make them. That's usually how things work.

Most people don't request evidence for things which are plainly obvious, like the fact that you don't log into wow and see 30% druids one month and then 30% paladins three months later when the meta changes.

https://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

Do you see 30% of one class and 1% of another class? No. The most played class is 12% and the least played class is 6%. This is how it has always been. It's pretty uniform. There aren't dramatic shifts.

[Depakote]

Most people don't request evidence for things which are plainly obvious, like the fact that you don't log into wow and see 30% druids one month and then 30% paladins three months later when the meta changes.

https://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

Do you see 30% of one class and 1% of another class? No. The most played class is 12% and the least played class is 6%. This is how it has always been. It's pretty uniform. There aren't dramatic shifts.

Ya, that site isn't a credible source of anything. Nice try though.

[NineSpine]

Ya, that site isn't a credible source of anything. Nice try though.

You are going to say that about anything I present, troll.

[Depakote]

You are going to say that about anything I present, troll.

The irony. I'd say it's been fun having this 'discussion' with you but i was taught not to lie. Wish you were given the same lesson.

[NineSpine]

The irony. I'd say it's been fun having this 'discussion' with you but i was taught not to lie. Wish you were given the same lesson.

I presented evidence. Your refusal to accept it is a transparent attempt to escape admitting you were wrong. There is no evidence that class comp shifts dramatically. You’ve never logged in and seen 30% druids and then three months later no druids and 30% mages. It’s never happened.