I think Shadowlands will be another Warlords of Draenor

[Kolvarg]

Well you constantly do that world quest which means that eventually you do get so much gear which you can disenchant which you can then sell the materials of which you can then get gold for with you then then can buy gear or a carry or you can keep the golden order to buy more cosmetics

Why go that far? Just tell people to buy tokens with their real money and then use the gold to buy carries. FUN! /s

Having that end point is fine having that endpoint means that you have achieved the best that you could do and it’s fine

But what you seem to think is that you need more because your endgame is such the bare minimum but you want rewards for doing the bare minimum beyond what you will already get which includes gear and materials and gold and other resources which will be obtained by you for simply doing the casual content that you want to do

Of course there's always an endpoint. The system is not about that, it's about making that endpoint long-lasting but achievable, and mainly more engaging (by making it partially deterministic instead of just based on very small drop chances) for the average player.

What I want is a system that improves the gearing path and increases player agency for everyone, regardless of what content they do. And a system that helps new content they add not be either mandatory nor completely irrelevant for many players. It would benefit raiders just as much as people who do "the bare minimum". It's not because I "need" better gear, or even because I "want" it. It's because I genuinely believe it would make the game better for the majority of people. And because I have played through iterations of the game which implemented similar systems (Emblems in WotLK and VP in MoP) which were much more engaging to me than the current gearing systems.

But apparently some people can't get past the thought of "look at the noob wanting loot". Without even knowing what kind of content I actually do.

[Revamp Man]

Why go that far? Just tell people to buy tokens with their real money and then use the gold to buy carries. FUN! /s



Of course there's always an endpoint. The system is not about that, it's about making that endpoint long-lasting but achievable, and mainly more engaging (by making it partially deterministic instead of just based on very small drop chances) for the average player.

What I want is a system that improves the gearing path and increases player agency for everyone, regardless of what content they do. And a system that helps new content they add not be either mandatory nor completely irrelevant for many players. It would benefit raiders just as much as people who do "the bare minimum". It's not because I "need" better gear, or even because I "want" it. It's because I genuinely believe it would make the game better for the majority of people. And because I have played through iterations of the game which implemented similar systems (Emblems in WotLK and VP in MoP) which were much more engaging to me than the current gearing systems.

But apparently some people can't get past the thought of "look at the noob wanting loot". Without even knowing what kind of content I actually do.

OK but do you also see that valor points were kind of a pain in the ass for players who would constantly upgrade gear

I mean I would end up doing the heroic scenario in mists and arrow dungeon which I could just solo if I wanted to because of the valor system and every time I got a new drop in the Raid I wouldn’t be able to equipment or at least save up points one week because there was a boss that would drop a weapon

I mean I would end up doing the heroic scenario in mists and arrow dungeon which I could just solo if I wanted to because of the valor system and every time I got a new drop in the Raid I wouldn’t be able to equip it or at least save up points one week because there was a boss that would drop a weapon


That didn’t really feel that good and then the emblems in wrath of the Lich King didn’t have as bad a side effect but at a certain point you didn’t really care about your badges

In a game where our gear resets every six months or so a system to make gear acquisition last longer is unnecessary in the current game where it was useful in the old game because currently we have more ways to progress and more avenues to experience the game

- - - Updated - - -

Whatever Legion did, it kept me playing. They need to recreate that somehow but in a different form. Legion had a lot of angles it came at you with and it was all paced pretty well, like there wasn't a butt ton of chores dumped on your head immediately so you can unlock vital things in the game, but you also weren't too gifted in the beginning, you had to deal with the cards you were dealt, you could make stupid choices, you could deplete your key, there were more unique appearances and flavor things to go for, the allied races didn't feel like a chore at all, most people should've had them unlocked without even trying, Legion always had moments where you KNEW you were getting what you deserved.
Also there was something to be said about the "no gear in PVP" experiment. That alone got me to level a rogue and pvp that expansion.

BFA is just so random you never even know what you're gonna get anymore, it's just utter stupidity. You alienate any player that doesn't care for gambling or surprises or not feeling in control.

Battle for Azurra will forever go down as an expansion with good content but shitty systems built on that content

The idea of being able to unlock essences was interesting but the essence system and how we unlocked it with different ranks was really garbage

The armor and the neck was something else that was interesting on paper but the implementation was absolutely terrible because I think it was one out of every 12 traits changed up how you played your character and some of them were needed for the class or spec to feel playable

The armor and the neck was something else that was interesting on paper but the implementation was absolutely terrible because I think it was one out of every 12 traits changed up how are you played your character and some of them were needed for the class or spec to feel playable

Islands looks good on Alpha for a bit but they were terrible when they came out war fronts suffered the same thing

The dungeons are great the mythic plus system is great the raids are great the problem is none of that is from the current expansion

What’s worse is right now you can spend two minutes hitting a training dummy and go over your damage break down and find that about half of it is probably made up of random procs from your armor and your essences and your corruption and that is terrible

I am so happy that from what we can see that problem of randomness and the problem of content with crappy systems is going to be solved

The only thing that I do not like is the covenants system and how they are saying that they are going to try to make it work when it can’t work if you want to make it meaningful then you can’t expect players to not gravitate towards the best choice and by making the system a pain in the ass you just annoy the players there is no way to fix that unless you separate player power from the covenant themselves because personally I do not care if I see a Rogue in Kyrian armor using bone spike

[Kolvarg]

OK but do you also see that valor points were kind of a pain in the ass for players who would constantly upgrade gear

I mean I would end up doing the heroic scenario in mists and arrow dungeon which I could just solo if I wanted to because of the valor system and every time I got a new drop in the Raid I wouldn’t be able to equipment or at least save up points one week because there was a boss that would drop a weapon

That didn’t really feel that good and then the emblems in wrath of the Lich King didn’t have as bad a side effect but at a certain point you didn’t really care about your badges

In a game where our gear resets every six months or so a system to make gear acquisition last longer is unnecessary in the current game where it was useful in the old game because currently we have more ways to progress and more avenues to experience the game

Regarding the issue you mention with gear upgrades, isn't that a small chance? I mean, how are you not able to equip new raid drops every time? VP takes time to acquire, especially with the weekly cap there was. The only way that would happen is if you managed to get a 2nd drop with different stats for the same slot that you already happened to improve (in which case tbh that's easily fixed by saving the VPs to improve only BiS pieces unless you have spare VPs).

That's why I'm suggesting a system like Emblems and VP, but improved. Nowadays you could choose between multiple difficulties of raiding, multiple difficulties of dungeons, Torghast and World Quests, all viable ways of acquiring your VPs. The upgrade system, if existant, would be to simply upgrade any of the system's gear until a maximum (like Mythic or Heroic raid ilvl).

At a certain point you didn't care about the badges - like at a certain point you don't care about the loot, now? Hell, I'll be honest, the way the loot currently works, I don't care about it from the get-go. There will always be such a point, the difference is a badge/VP-like system allows that point to be later.

There are flaws to this system, like there are with any system you might think of. No system is perfect, and will never be the best for all players, and there will always be someone complaining. But most of the problems can be fixed and tuned, and the details investigated and tested to find the best results. It can be so much better than what we have.


It's not to make it last longer, so much as it is to make it viable/engaging for players to actually pursue it for longer (ie: actually until the gear "resets"). For instance with the WQ example, you will likely have most of the best standard gear you can get after a week or two, and past that there's only a small chance of getting an improved item , and even then as you get some of those there's only a small chance that it will be an improved item that's actually useful to you. It's RNG on top of RNG that's just not engaging for many people.

Same for someone into M+. You farm it until you get most of the pieces you can get "normally", and soon there's only a small chance you'll actually get something useful. Same for an Heroic raider. You keep raiding until you eventually get most of the gear you can get, and then you have a small chance of getting an improved version of that item. And for more casual raiders, you might even be unlucky and not get drops on certain slots. A deterministic system would allow you to actively work towards those improvements, and/or combat bad luck in drops by allowing you to buy gear which you were not lucky to acquire.

The truth is there are always systems like these introduced. We have proof because they have been used in and out. Even since they stopped using it as "the" universal endgame gearing system, they still keep adding gear purchasable with currency throughout patches as catchup mechanisms and alternate gearing paths. The thing is they keep coming up with different variations of it that are never complete nor solid enough, and they tie it to specific activities that more often than not only frustrate players. If they took that idea and really worked on it as a way to uniformize the endgame reward system that rewards all endgame activity, they could have a solid system that lasts through multiple patches and expansions with little work.

[Revamp Man]

Regarding the issue you mention with gear upgrades, isn't that a small chance? I mean, how are you not able to equip new raid drops every time? VP takes time to acquire, especially with the weekly cap there was. The only way that would happen is if you managed to get a 2nd drop with different stats for the same slot that you already happened to improve (in which case tbh that's easily fixed by saving the VPs to improve only BiS pieces unless you have spare VPs).

That's why I'm suggesting a system like Emblems and VP, but improved. Nowadays you could choose between multiple difficulties of raiding, multiple difficulties of dungeons, Torghast and World Quests, all viable ways of acquiring your VPs. The upgrade system, if existant, would be to simply upgrade any of the system's gear until a maximum (like Mythic or Heroic raid ilvl).

At a certain point you didn't care about the badges - like at a certain point you don't care about the loot, now? Hell, I'll be honest, the way the loot currently works, I don't care about it from the get-go. There will always be such a point, the difference is a badge/VP-like system allows that point to be later.

There are flaws to this system, like there are with any system you might think of. No system is perfect, and will never be the best for all players, and there will always be someone complaining. But most of the problems can be fixed and tuned, and the details investigated and tested to find the best results. It can be so much better than what we have.


It's not to make it last longer, so much as it is to make it viable/engaging for players to actually pursue it for longer (ie: actually until the gear "resets"). For instance with the WQ example, you will likely have most of the best standard gear you can get after a week or two, and past that there's only a small chance of getting an improved item , and even then as you get some of those there's only a small chance that it will be an improved item that's actually useful to you. It's RNG on top of RNG that's just not engaging for many people.

Same for someone into M+. You farm it until you get most of the pieces you can get "normally", and soon there's only a small chance you'll actually get something useful. Same for an Heroic raider. You keep raiding until you eventually get most of the gear you can get, and then you have a small chance of getting an improved version of that item. And for more casual raiders, you might even be unlucky and not get drops on certain slots. A deterministic system would allow you to actively work towards those improvements, and/or combat bad luck in drops by allowing you to buy gear which you were not lucky to acquire.

The truth is there are always systems like these introduced. We have proof because they have been used in and out. Even since they stopped using it as "the" universal endgame gearing system, they still keep adding gear purchasable with currency throughout patches as catchup mechanisms and alternate gearing paths. The thing is they keep coming up with different variations of it that are never complete nor solid enough, and they tie it to specific activities that more often than not only frustrate players. If they took that idea and really worked on it as a way to uniformize the endgame reward system that rewards all endgame activity, they could have a solid system that lasts through multiple patches and expansions with little work.

OK so let’s say that your system is in place for the beginning of the next expansion so we go into the first tier of content

That content will be around seven months maybe eight months long. So you have 7 to 8 months to upgrade your gear to the top level of gear progression or whatever you wanna call it

Once that next tier drops everything that you did to progress your gear to that level is absolutely meaningless because then it restarts like it always does

So now you have essentially added on a system that requires a bit more of a grind which was removed in a sense and the system is an infinite grind in order for you to be able to get to the tippy top

We have seen how players handle infinite grinds and we have seen how they react in fact just the new grind introduced recently for the account wide essences have some people throwing a fit
We have seen how players handle infinite grinds and we have seen how they react in fact just the new grind introduced recently for the account wide essences have some people throwing a fit

Now the problem that I have with that system is that it is a constantly resetting infinite grind which as a player who likes having an endpoint goes against what I enjoy about the game

[Kolvarg]

Once that next tier drops everything that you did to progress your gear to that level is absolutely meaningless because then it restarts like it always does

That's a problem with gear resetting, and happens regardless of what system of acquiring loot is in place.

In fact, depending in how it's implemented, it could even help reduce how much is reset. For instance: instead of a new raid fully resetting your gear, it just unlocks more upgrades to your gear, so that you don't just immediately discard it. That is a whole different problem though, because then players might not feel motivated to complete new content, so I think that essentially needs a different solution (if there is one) that is not necessarily tied to this system.

Also, a system that uniformizes the expected player ilvl like this, can be used to help reduce the gear bloat/power creep problem and therefore minify the problem of gear resetting.

So now you have essentially added on a system that requires a bit more of a grind which was removed in a sense and the system is an infinite grind in order for you to be able to get to the tippy top

The purpose of the system is specifically for gearing to be a finite grind, and to allow that grind to be done across any endgame PvE activity, unlike the current system of extreme RNG that permeates particularly non-raiding PvE content. Now they have said that will be no more, and that layer of RNG will be removed and to compensate loot will just be rarer. Personally I don't think that's a best case scenario. Plus - how will it work for non-raiding content?

[Lodreh]

I think Shadowlands will be another Warlords of Draenor

So amazing leveling, no end game, flying delayed to being exceptionally late? I hope the leveling is as good... end game has Torghast which could be very interesting but it depends on repeatability and rewards... and Ion hates flying so that's about par for the course. Yeah I can see it but it hinges on how good Torghast is.

FFXIV...

FFXIV has a good story. If you prefer actually playing the game and seeing the story then FFXIV is hard to beat. If end game is your thing WoW does it better than anyone else.

[Kaver]

But I argue for a middle ground. That max effort yields most efficient reward. But that casuals should have a method to gear up as well. Make it long, make it a slog, but make it available.

Gear up for what? Why do a heroic raider need to get better gear if they just keep doing the same heroic raid over and over again. They will just be stronger and the heroic raid will become easier and easier. But they never actual do anything with the gear and progress. I don't understand why people are so fixated on getting better gear if they have already beaten the content they wanted to beat and are not going to do anything further with that gear.

If you want mythic gear than you need to mythic raid. Simple. A heroic raider should not get mythic gear and they don't need mythic gear either.

- - - Updated - - -

That way of thinking is exactly why WoD failed.

WoD failed because it was an unfinished product. There was no content in the game and that had nothing to do with gear. WoD failed because they choose to cut planned content like an entire raid tier and ended up with a story which made no sense. The failure of WoD had nothing to do with gear. Titanforged gear would not have changed WoD in any way.

The whole "raid or die" expression came because there was actually nothing else to do than raiding. Even if Titanforging had been in WoD there would still not have been anything else to do than raiding. In Shadowlands there will be plenty other things to do. And it has nothing to do with well-fare gear.

[StaeleAilar]

But I argue for a middle ground. That max effort yields most efficient reward. But that casuals should have a method to gear up as well. Make it long, make it a slog, but make it available.

This part is confusing to me. You want a middle ground that is long and a slog... is that not the same as the whole "go out and learn to raid if you want the raid gear" that i'm assuming is the problem you have?
Genuinely not sure, perhaps i'm misunderstanding but from what i hear, having to raid for the raid gear *is* the slog that "casual" players don't want to do. But i do agree with some of the other sentiments in this thread re: why do they need the gear if they're not doing the content. I have always agreed with that sentiment.

[Kaibhan]

This part is confusing to me. You want a middle ground that is long and a slog... is that not the same as the whole "go out and learn to raid if you want the raid gear" that i'm assuming is the problem you have?
Genuinely not sure, perhaps i'm misunderstanding but from what i hear, having to raid for the raid gear *is* the slog that "casual" players don't want to do. But i do agree with some of the other sentiments in this thread re: why do they need the gear if they're not doing the content. I have always agreed with that sentiment.

For a feeling of progression. People like to be rewarded for what they do even if the reward is meaningless.

[Jujudrood]

Because you can't continue to gear unless you push raids or mythic+. This has been said thousands of times.

Right.
You have reached the finish line of the game you play.
That's okay to have a goal line and actually reach it.
Given that Torghast introduces casual levels of play solo or in a group, and that play leads to crafting legendaries, there could be enough opportunity for advancement.
Once we get full details on this, including pacing, we can make a better judgment and form a more informed opinion.

You are saying exactly the model a lot of people want. Valour points.

Valor filled outmaybe I think 4-5 slots, which were on par with 10man normal raiding and meant more for placeholder/helper gear.
Maybe during ICC you could get better than 10man normal, I don't remember.
It was a brief way to fill in gear better than what you got from dungeons, sure, but only select slots.
If you didn't raid, you were basically done.

If the casuals max out their gear because they can't get anything outside of Mythic+ or raiding, they will go away, and WoW will get less money.

WoW is based totally on the gear chase. Take that chase away, and you don't have WoW.

That's the problem, though.
It should be based on being a fun game to play, with the gear being that extra cherry on top.

If they max their gear, they reached the finish line.
I would much rather having a precise and measurable way to reach a finish line as opposed to what we've had for 2 expansions, which was a veritable moving goal line.
If they only do LFR, then maxing out on LFR gear is the target.
Are they extremely lucky? Then they are done in a matter of weeks.
Are they on the opposite side, where they never hit that finish line before next raid? Sure, could be.
It averages out.
Let's say 2 drops a week per LFR full run, on average, is still 2 months of weekly LFR raiding, and that's only if you get the "right" items (there's still chance for "subpar" drops or duplicates).
Still plenty of need to play, and if you don't want to, then you leave.

What I would prefer is somewhere in the middle, between the "miss a single day and you are forever behind" model and the "don't worry, there's purple rain everywhere so you can catch up within a couple hours" model.
Then, if they actually address gameplay (because IMO half the classes feel kind of bland/boring to play), completing the content can become a bigger focus instead of the "gief purpz" attitude of today.

[Vortaus]

*** WARNING WARNING PERSONAL OPINION!!!!! ***

With what I've heard so far, I think Shadowlands is going to end up being another Warlords of Draenor.

They're basically going back to a Raid-Or-Die model. Yes, we now have the caveat of Mythic+. That does change the dynamics.

But unfortunately, both cater to the same crowd: Those who push content.

And if gear is only going to those types of people, then your casuals are going to max out their gear and have nothing left to do.

That is exactly what happened in WoD.

I do greatly understand that max effort should yield max reward.

But I argue for a middle ground. That max effort yields most efficient reward. But that casuals should have a method to gear up as well. Make it long, make it a slog, but make it available.

This model worked very well in Wrath. And yes, I was around for the complaints about it as well, from the same group of people who are arguing against casuals getting gear outside of raiding/mythic+ today.

If WoW continues down this path, they'll see a lot more people move to FF14, where anyone can work toward gear. Again, the elites have the most efficient way, but the casuals aren't left out in the cold.

/end personal opinion. Let the attacks begin!

While it's still early alpha and subject to change..I could see torgast being a gearing up option for casual players. And I'm pretty sure gear ilvl for dungeons and dailies etc will go up each new season. I wouldn't fret too much yet.

[Kolvarg]

Why do a heroic raider need to get better gear if they just keep doing the same heroic raid over and over again. I don't understand why people are so fixated on getting better gear if they have already beaten the content they wanted to beat and are not going to do anything further with that gear.
If you want mythic gear than you need to mythic raid. Simple. A heroic raider should not get mythic gear and they don't need mythic gear either.

Why even have loot in the first place then? By your logic it should just be removed and people should just play whatever difficulty they want simply for the joy of it.

No one "needs" gear, there are thousands of games out there that work without the concept of gear. But for this one, gear is the main in-game reward. And if one reaches a point where realistically it's extremely unlikely they'll get any more rewards, most players aren't motivated to play - especially when it comes to repeatable content.

This part is confusing to me. You want a middle ground that is long and a slog... is that not the same as the whole "go out and learn to raid if you want the raid gear" that i'm assuming is the problem you have?

One "solution" attempts to have the player change his playstyle and preferred content in order to have his gameplay be rewarding mid/long-term.

The other solution attempts to have "all" endgame gameplay be rewarding mid/long-term, regardless of playstyle or content preference, just at different rates so it's still more rewarding to complete harder content.

[fwc577]

Geez, considering the alt army I'm going to have setup come Shadowlands, I hope so, I will make Billions of gold in Shadowlands if it's another Warlords!

[Dadwen]

every expansion since WOD has been "WOD", hell the only thing WOD did have going for it, it still had a hint of the old class designs in it, and they've been destroying them ever-since.

[froschhure]

"Endgame

The team will announce more about endgame as the Alpha cap gets to 60.
There will still be world quests, no more Emissaries. Covenant calling gives you world objectives with more variety than do X world quests.
but
Epic Covenant campaign that spans multiple weeks, unlocks Soulbind, tells story of Covenant."

[Lazuli]

....No, this isn't a raid or die expansion...... I swear to god some people here are crazy and have WoD deranged syndrome or maybe Wow deranged syndrome.


Also the worst thing XIV probably isn't what the person described here, their store....


Makes wow's look like a peasent offering.

Its laughable how cheap their store is compared to WoW.

[Nicholaes92]

You’re suggesting that one should be able to progress in pvp by doing pve?

Should? That's what happens right now. But when you can't get gear that's decent in pvp unless you are at the tip top of arena then ya, it honestly kinda sucks.

[Naytham]

every expansion since WOD has been "WOD", hell the only thing WOD did have going for it, it still had a hint of the old class designs in it, and they've been destroying them ever-since.

facts facts facts

[Kathranis]

Its laughable how cheap their store is compared to WoW.

Uh...? Everything in their cash shop is generally comparable in price to WoW if not more expensive, and there is way more of it. Literally hundreds of items.

Emotes for $2-7, glamours for $5-20, mounts for $20-30, pets for $5-10, single use dyes for $1, housing decorations from like $5-20, story skips for $10-25, job level boosts for $25, character appearance changes for $10, renames for $10, server transfer for $20.

[Lazuli]

Uh...? Everything in their cash shop is generally comparable in price to WoW if not more expensive, and there is way more of it. Literally hundreds of items.

Emotes for $2-7, glamours for $5-20, mounts for $20-30, pets for $5-10, single use dyes for $1, housing decorations from like $5-20, story skips for $10-25, job level boosts for $25, character appearance changes for $10, renames for $10, server transfer for $20.

Do you have a point other than confirming mine that its far cheaper than WoWs predatory prices?