I think Shadowlands will be another Warlords of Draenor

[Kolvarg]

Gear upgrades were just a gear tax. It didn't let anyone to get more powerful, since being powerful is relative not absolute.
What is the point if LFR "peasant" upgraded his gear up to 10 or even 20 levels if Heroic (mythic wasn't up back then) "wannabe" also upgraded his gear to 10/20 levels?

As far as I'm concerned, it's far better than only being able to hope for a tiny chance of getting a WF/TF.

But that's not the main point of what I typed. Again: It's about introducing a system of the same philosophy that takes the best of VP and the best of Emblems and further improves on it to provide deterministic progression to players of all gameplay types, not the same exact mechanics and values.

[Qnubi]

Let's see, in terms of endgame features.

WoD release endgame features: Raids, Dungeons, Garrisons, PvP, Apexis/Rep grind.

Shadowlands release endgame features: Raids, PvP, Dungeons, M+, Torghast (for legendary crafting), Covenants, Worldquests, Auto-Battler.

Yup, your thread makes no sense.

[Big Thanks]

As far as I'm concerned, it's far better than only being able to hope for a tiny chance of getting a WF/TF.

But that's not the main point of what I typed. Again: It's about introducing a system of the same philosophy that takes the best of VP and the best of Emblems and further improves on it to provide deterministic progression to players of all gameplay types, not the same exact mechanics and values.

This system you want to implement to increase gear item level is ONLY good if you can ONLY upgrade shit gear into Heroic/Mythic levels AND you CANT upgrade Mythic level gear.

Like Kaminaris said...when everyone can upgrade gear...nothing is happening in the grand scheme of things...and you just spent months doing absolutely NOTHING.
Because is all relative.

[Kolvarg]

This system you want to implement to increase gear item level is ONLY good if you can ONLY upgrade shit gear into Heroic/Mythic levels AND you CANT upgrade Mythic level gear.

Like Kaminaris said...when everyone can upgrade gear...nothing is happening in the grand scheme of things...and you just spent months doing absolutely NOTHING.
Because is all relative.

I don't want to implement that system.. it was an example of part of how VP worked in MoP, and an example of how VP can provide deterministic progression to players of all endgame gameplay types.

I would prefer if a re-introduction of the VP system allowed any endgame activities, even the more trivial ones like WQ and Heroic dungeons, provide a way acquire gear close to the most powerful of the current game state (for instance, Heroic raiding gear), just at a fairly slow rate. The most direct example of this is the Emblems of Frost system, and other people here have stated that the VP system in MoP also was pretty close until the last patch.


With that said, to play the devil's advocate, I think that line of thought is not really very solid even if I was defending such a system. You already spend months doing absolutely nothing. No matter how much effort you put into getting your gear, or how hard the content you need to do in order to get it is, after a few months new gear will come out and your old gear will become irrelevant. That's a problem of gear being the main progression mechanism and the main motivation for players to do content, not with the system itself.

I mean, what's the alternative? Do you think the current system is any better or more meaningful?
Of course, power is relative. VPs to increase gear level would not change the power difference between different players of different types of content if everyone could upgrade their gear the same way. But it at least it provides a way to progress your character deterministically, meaning: you do a certain amount of endgame activities, and get rewarded with a certain amount of currency, which eventually allows you to upgrade your character power - it wouldn't make you more powerful in relation to other players, but it would still make you more powerful in relation to the world and the game activities you do.


Personally I think it would only make sense to reintroduce this specific part if they weren't removing Titanforged loot - so this would be a way of actually upgrading your gear to titanforged if you don't get lucky enough to get it to drop. But since they are removing TF (which I do think is for the best), I think a system where you can use VP/Emblems to buy and/or improve gear to a certain specific max ilvl (and anyone is able to reach that ilvl with enough currency, regardless of what activity they acquire the currency from), could work wonders for the game, and highly increase its long-term play value for less competitive/invested players.

[Beefhammer]

This system you want to implement to increase gear item level is ONLY good if you can ONLY upgrade shit gear into Heroic/Mythic levels AND you CANT upgrade Mythic level gear.

Like Kaminaris said...when everyone can upgrade gear...nothing is happening in the grand scheme of things...and you just spent months doing absolutely NOTHING.
Because is all relative.

I actually agree here. Mythic gear should never have been upgradable.

[Razorice]

What about Torghast? Pretty sure everyone will be able to do it however many times they want.
So there's already something to do outside Raids/M+

[Licketysplit77]

*** YAWNING YAWNING KEEP YOUR PERSONAL OPINION TO YOURSELF!!!!! ***

Also factually incorrect - Raid or Die model is not happening in Shadowlands

[pennywise377]

Lol yeah, ff14 where you can just buy item level cap gear with gil, then pentameld it and be about 95% as strong as you can get.

Besides, if you aren't doing anything with the gear, you don't need the gear anyways.

if you aren't raiding heroic, you dont need 445+ ilvl, if you aren't raiding mythic you dont need 460+ ilvl.

If you aren't pushing 12s and 15s or higher you dont need that ilvl.

You can easily manage any world quests with like 410-420 ilvl. If all you are doing is open content, what is the point of 470 gear?

You know what casual player does when they reach max ilvl they can get with their activities? They leave the game and play something else.

Any MMO or RPG game for that matter is at its core making your character stronger. If I cannot make my character stronger, then what is the point?

Also there is this thing where you do not want to be the runt of the litter. How would you feel in your 410 ilvl when everyone else you meet is at +475?

[VinceVega]

*** WARNING WARNING PERSONAL OPINION!!!!! ***

With what I've heard so far, I think Shadowlands is going to end up being another Warlords of Draenor.

They're basically going back to a Raid-Or-Die model. Yes, we now have the caveat of Mythic+. That does change the dynamics.

But unfortunately, both cater to the same crowd: Those who push content.

And if gear is only going to those types of people, then your casuals are going to max out their gear and have nothing left to do.

That is exactly what happened in WoD.

I do greatly understand that max effort should yield max reward.

But I argue for a middle ground. That max effort yields most efficient reward. But that casuals should have a method to gear up as well. Make it long, make it a slog, but make it available.

This model worked very well in Wrath. And yes, I was around for the complaints about it as well, from the same group of people who are arguing against casuals getting gear outside of raiding/mythic+ today.

If WoW continues down this path, they'll see a lot more people move to FF14, where anyone can work toward gear. Again, the elites have the most efficient way, but the casuals aren't left out in the cold.

/end personal opinion. Let the attacks begin!

I will never understand that mentality.

You basically say, you don't want to do any of the endgame content... but you for some reason need the big gear? Why? You did nothing to earn it and also there is no reason you need it...

If it is for transmog, do it as many and play the previous expansion to farm it all.

Also the good old FF14 thingy. Half the wow players switched to FF14 and came back because FF14 is not very captivating in the long run. Is it good? Yes-ish. I don't see why i would get gear Method gets if i only roll around in LFR. That is just a shitty feeling. That no matter how much i put into the game or how good i am in the end Faceroll McShuffelDick has the same gear as me in the end... great...

[dcc626]

I liked WoD more than BFA/MoP, so that's fine for me.

Less grinding, more alt-friendly, nice raids, just logging for the things you really want to do - raids/PvP.

Awesome, I'm sold.

except torghast. you have to do it or you dont get legendaries. so im sure we will hear complaints about that for some.

[Big Thanks]

I don't want to implement that system.. it was an example of part of how VP worked in MoP, and an example of how VP can provide deterministic progression to players of all endgame gameplay types.

I would prefer if a re-introduction of the VP system allowed any endgame activities, even the more trivial ones like WQ and Heroic dungeons, provide a way acquire gear close to the most powerful of the current game state (for instance, Heroic raiding gear), just at a fairly slow rate. The most direct example of this is the Emblems of Frost system, and other people here have stated that the VP system in MoP also was pretty close until the last patch.


With that said, to play the devil's advocate, I think that line of thought is not really very solid even if I was defending such a system. You already spend months doing absolutely nothing. No matter how much effort you put into getting your gear, or how hard the content you need to do in order to get it is, after a few months new gear will come out and your old gear will become irrelevant. That's a problem of gear being the main progression mechanism and the main motivation for players to do content, not with the system itself.

I mean, what's the alternative? Do you think the current system is any better or more meaningful?
Of course, power is relative. VPs to increase gear level would not change the power difference between different players of different types of content if everyone could upgrade their gear the same way. But it at least it provides a way to progress your character deterministically, meaning: you do a certain amount of endgame activities, and get rewarded with a certain amount of currency, which eventually allows you to upgrade your character power - it wouldn't make you more powerful in relation to other players, but it would still make you more powerful in relation to the world and the game activities you do.


Personally I think it would only make sense to reintroduce this specific part if they weren't removing Titanforged loot - so this would be a way of actually upgrading your gear to titanforged if you don't get lucky enough to get it to drop. But since they are removing TF (which I do think is for the best), I think a system where you can use VP/Emblems to buy and/or improve gear to a certain specific max ilvl (and anyone is able to reach that ilvl with enough currency, regardless of what activity they acquire the currency from), could work wonders for the game, and highly increase its long-term play value for less competitive/invested players.

The concept is a big turn off for me for the simple fact i know in the end i wont be stronger RELATIVE to other players.
I know this so...is a big turn off for me.

If i lived in ignorance OR if i trully believed i was getting stronger...i might have liked it.

My brain tells me "thats a lot of work for minimal profit"

[Tyris Flare]

Lol yeah, ff14 where you can just buy item level cap gear with gil, then pentameld it and be about 95% as strong as you can get.

Besides, if you aren't doing anything with the gear, you don't need the gear anyways.

if you aren't raiding heroic, you dont need 445+ ilvl, if you aren't raiding mythic you dont need 460+ ilvl.

If you aren't pushing 12s and 15s or higher you dont need that ilvl.

You can easily manage any world quests with like 410-420 ilvl. If all you are doing is open content, what is the point of 470 gear?

This is and has always been a silly argument. People "need" the gear because fundamentally this is a game about character progression, and getting more powerful is fun. Even the biggest schlub wants to feel more powerful over time regardless of whether he or she needs it to actually beat content.

That said, gearing in this game is unbelievably trivial for anyone with a few friends and a modicum of ability. I just went from 400-460 on my priest in a handful of m+ dungeons, and after a few more weeks she'll be 470+ and capable of doing any content.

[Wyattbw09]

complaints about it as well, from the same group of people who are arguing against casuals getting gear outside of raiding/mythic+ today.

The good old days of endless complaints about "welfare epics." Can't wait to go back to that nonsense. Are the gear score checks still a thing, where you can't pug a raid unless you can prove you gear is already way above what the raid calls for?

[Mace]

Get the FF14 Waifu that is miqo, never worry about gil again.

- - - Updated - - -



So why do you need 470 gear to do world quests exactly?

You don't. But you do heroic/mythic raiding and m+ so you aren't casual.

Maybe because our definition of casual might be different? To me casual is not necessarily doing WQS only. Casual is someone who doesn't play the game to constantly go to raids 3-5 times a day, fratncially playing for that one singular purpose, must max everything and will put in the time to do so to beat all the content first.

Casual is a person who doesn't play that regularly, but makes an effort to do challenging content in the 2-3 days he can play.

Maybe semi-casual might be what I am, but I enjoy not always having to raid to be able to keep my character up to date and ahead, for the few times I can raid, or the odd season irl isn't too busy or stressful that I want to play.

- - - Updated - - -

You can full clear mythic raiding playing 6 hours a week. Never confuse a casual with a baddie

Thank you.

[unbound]

But unfortunately, both cater to the same crowd: Those who push content.

A handful of raids with 4 different difficulty levels *is* *not* *content*.

Content is a plethora of dungeons, raids, quests, and so on. Blizz used to understand this, as do most players. While Blizz uses all kinds of excuses as to why this game is dying, it is ultimately, in reality, because they keep short-cutting content.

Look at the number of dungeons and raids for each expansion. They've been cutting it lower and lower in general as time goes by.

Stop letting Blizz PR drive these conversations. They need to stop being lazy. Simple as that.

[Imurbandaid]

A handful of raids with 4 different difficulty levels *is* *not* *content*.

Content is a plethora of dungeons, raids, quests, and so on. Blizz used to understand this, as do most players. While Blizz uses all kinds of excuses as to why this game is dying, it is ultimately, in reality, because they keep short-cutting content.

Look at the number of dungeons and raids for each expansion. They've been cutting it lower and lower in general as time goes by.

Stop letting Blizz PR drive these conversations. They need to stop being lazy. Simple as that.

I dont see a lack of raids and dungeons in BFA or Legion or anything since "back in the day when they understood". In fact, dnugeons are actually usually much better now that they are used for mythic +.

[dacoolist]

Back in the day I used to just PVE, then I got that itch to PVP and actually swapped over to it completely with ma bwoy @Warlucia

Things do change and in Legion I started PVE'ing to get PVP gear but instead of PVPing a lot, I actually just started running M+ a lot lol

Now in current, I try to keep up with everything but I will agree that PVE gear IMO is much easier to obtain than PVP gear at the ilvl meaning:

I can breeeeeeeeeeze my dumbass through a M+ 15 and get gear a badass PVP has to be running at a SUPER high level just to obtain

Do I think this is the wrong approach, no - but do I think that PVP gear should be better in PVP, or have a setup like WOD PVP Gearing (WoD PVP Gearing was one of the best methods of obtaining PVP gear in the history of the game) - I think PVE gear should be best for PVE and PVP gear should be best for PVP

[Pohut]

We can only hope. WoW was at its best when it was Raid or Die.

[Zyky]

This model worked very well in Wrath. And yes, I was around for the complaints about it as well, from the same group of people who are arguing against casuals getting gear outside of raiding/mythic+ today.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, there was no "middle ground in Wrath". If you're referring to badges, you still had to do raids/dungeons to get badges, so I'm not sure what you're argument is here.

If WoW continues down this path, they'll see a lot more people move to FF14, where anyone can work toward gear. Again, the elites have the most efficient way, but the casuals aren't left out in the cold.

K bye, don't come back either

[Luxeley]

That's not the main nor the popular reason why WOD sucked. WOD sucked because they offered a digital in-game Poloroid as a feature in the 1st patch main patch. Digital old maid and digital old maid on the sea got old in less than 3 wks. Ashran lacked the necessary technology to work properly, not alone work at all. And, they cut a solid 50-60% of the planned content during the beta (the videos are there, go watch). Not to mention players were already sick of Orc story lines by the end of MOP.