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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I highly doubt that the moderate inconvenience you experience from not rolling the right azerite traits you want right away so you can eek out that extra 2.3% DPS on content months after it's been cleared is tantamount to AFKing all day in your garrison that was the entirety of content in WoD.

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    This, here, is the correct answer.
    I’d rather hit an endgame, get BiS gear, and be able to raid log than have wow give me an infinite supply of chores that don’t mean crap in the end.

    So yeah, wod was better than bfa to me personally. Not even close and that says something cuz wod is awful

  2. #142
    Another spit in the face of the community

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Another spit in the face of the community
    Yeah let’s also slow down leveling to Classic pace, I’m playing since day one and it’s just not fair that a new guy can do 1-120 in less than 784994 days of /played.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Another spit in the face of the community
    Yeah man, how dare they make it more convenient for players to quest by removing old, outdated requirements.

    Last edited by ThatsOurEric; 2020-04-24 at 03:24 PM.

  5. #145
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I’d rather hit an endgame, get BiS gear, and be able to raid log than have wow give me an infinite supply of chores that don’t mean crap in the end.

    So yeah, wod was better than bfa to me personally. Not even close and that says something cuz wod is awful
    So you’re saying that because the game doesn’t hand you everything instantly, it’s worse than having nothing to do?

    You’re literally whining about single digit percent fluctuations of dps to eek out an edge in metrics that don’t matter and the game doesn’t even reward you for. That is not a concern for the vast, vast majority of players.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Then literally everything that's happened since 1.0 is time gated and your argument is still specious.

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    If you want the reward for doing open world content, then you have to do open world content. Just like literally any reward from any other part of the game. Pathfinder is a reward for completing it. Playing the game means playing the part of the game for which it is the reward. If you don't do open world content, you don't need flying.

    I don't expect raid loot from battlegrounds, or pet tokens from raids. You shouldn't expect something only useful in the open world to not require you to do things in the open world. The rewards you get should fit the content you do, and you should have to do that content to get them.
    Except you used to always be able to get flying without doing world content so....
    Softbottom - Stormscale

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Yeah let’s also slow down leveling to Classic pace, I’m playing since day one and it’s just not fair that a new guy can do 1-120 in less than 784994 days of /played.
    I mean I would agree with that.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I mean I would agree with that.
    I have no doubt but it makes little sense applied to a MMORPG.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    about time, wasting time while leveling in WoD serves none other than idiots that belive that trivial stuff have to be 'earned' by wasted time, WoD has been irrelevant for years, personally when leveling i always skip draenor entirely via dungeons/archaeology and the likes, might even give the continent another chance now
    Right now the Initial Draenor starting quests is a fast easy 5 levels and takes like an hour so I love WOD for this part then the world area quests doing 8-10 of them will finish you off.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Right now the Initial Draenor starting quests is a fast easy 5 levels and takes like an hour so I love WOD for this part then the world area quests doing 8-10 of them will finish you off.
    Nope. The initial Draenor scenario grants about 2,5 levels, with full looms and 100% Blizzard bonus. Did it not later than yesterday. You can maybe get to 93 if you are full rested also, but 95 definitely no.

    What a pity that in Draenor Azeroth Auto Pilot is bugged like hell and I have also to type /aap skip every two steps because it wants you to get treasures which is quite nightmarish if you don’t have flying enabled like me.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2020-04-24 at 06:53 PM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Softbottom View Post
    Except you used to always be able to get flying without doing world content so....
    You also used to be required to do attunements to get into raids. The design changed. Not every change is going to make the game easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crewskater View Post
    We're talking achievements, not content. Achievements weren't introduced into the game until patch 3.0. Splitting pathfinder into separate patches, is literally the definition of time gating. Imagine if they did the same thing for content and raids could only be completed across patches.
    Achievements are nothing but markers that you've done things. You get flying for completeing an amount of world content, part of which wasn't in the game in 8.0. So, like I said, your argument is specious. It makes sense on the surface, but when you really look at it, it falls apart. Either everything added in patches is time gated(and paywalled!) or you need to think about what the buzzwords you're slinging actually mean because the definition you're using is too vague to mean anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I would totally agree... if PF could be completed by simply exploring and doing the zones’ stories.

    As long as they are still ALSO locked behind the stupid reputations and you cannot get to revered by simply doing standard quests (not mentioning factions without normal quests like CoA and in lesser degree Naz and Mechalols) for me it’s still dumb, sorry.
    World quests are the endgame for world content. Pathfinder is an endgame reward. There is no reliable way to measure how many world quests you've done outside reputation. I guess a pathfinder requirement could be a number of world quests(or emissaries) instead of reputation, but it ends up the same place. Also, CoA had an unreplaceable boost to player power tied to it(not the first or last time that's happened either), so doing its rep was important for other reasons as well.

    World content has always included reputations.
    Last edited by Shaetha; 2020-04-25 at 04:30 AM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by blankfaced View Post
    Are people really crying that the requirement is being lifted years after the content is relevant?
    Proof that people will bitch about *any* change.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    How dare they want to require you do content to fly instead of rewarding the lazy. ANd you seem to forget that EVERYONE hiad to level in BFA without flying. Player entitlement and laziness continues to get worse.
    It makes me chuckle that you chide people for being lazy at playing a game. The thing they want to do when they are done working, finished with their studies and doing chores, etc. When people have their down time and want to relax. And here you come along scolding them for wanting to be lazy while they are relaxing.

    RELAX HARDER PEOPLE!! ...ugh, so lazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    So you’re saying that because the game doesn’t hand you everything instantly, it’s worse than having nothing to do?
    Nope, that wasn't what he was saying. I saw nothing about "instant" there. Work hard, spend many hours working to progress and get BiS, then when you finally accomplish that, sit back, relish your accomplishment, and raid log. Versus logging in ad infinitum to do chores that will never enable you to reach the goal line.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  14. #154
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post

    Nope, that wasn't what he was saying. I saw nothing about "instant" there. Work hard, spend many hours working to progress and get BiS, then when you finally accomplish that, sit back, relish your accomplishment, and raid log. Versus logging in ad infinitum to do chores that will never enable you to reach the goal line.
    And you can get BiS. That you lose sleep over infinitesimal shreds of DPS because getting the bonuses isn't guaranteed is on you, not the game's design because, like I said, all of that's pretty irrelevant anyway, as only a tiny, tiny sliver of the playerbase even remotely cares about raid logs. Hell, I'd bet most players don't even know what that is.

    The majority of players are going to be doing world quests, raids, mythic dungeons, island expeditions, visions of N'zoth, and the other things BFA has to offer as opposed to the WoD content of... sitting in your garrison, doing nothing. And it's quite obvious that no, the ability to secure BiS in WoD was not enough to retain the playerbase. Almost as if, like I said, very few players actualy care about some completely ulterior metric that rewards you with nothing, and certainly don't care about it enough to lose sleep about not getting titanforged perfect azerite-traited gear with sockets in every slot, the RNG-aspect of which you ascribe to being "ruinous game design."

    It's quite obvious Blizzard's game design sense differs from yours. Because it's obvious to me that things like warforged, extra gem sockets, etc are supposed to be bonuses. As in, "oh, cool, I got an extra perk on this armor! That's neat and makes me feel special." As opposed to your apparent mindset of "I'm being PUNISHED by NOT getting the perfect rolls on the loot I'm getting! THAT MAKES ME FEEL VICTIMIZED BY THEIR GAME DESIGN!"
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    about time, wasting time while leveling in WoD serves none other than idiots that belive that trivial stuff have to be 'earned' by wasted time, WoD has been irrelevant for years, personally when leveling i always skip draenor entirely via dungeons/archaeology and the likes, might even give the continent another chance now
    I certainly don't - it's the fastest levelling range there is. Stay in it and level off chests, etc., for as long as possible. Legion is good for that, but WoD is better. Then you hit BfA, and it's an awful slog through stuff you've probably done far too many times already. To be fair, levelling alts through the current expansion is almost always like this, WoD being the exception in the day with it's x3 XP pots and high XP for chests and bonus areas.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    You also used to be required to do attunements to get into raids. The design changed. Not every change is going to make the game easier.

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    Achievements are nothing but markers that you've done things. You get flying for completeing an amount of world content, part of which wasn't in the game in 8.0. So, like I said, your argument is specious. It makes sense on the surface, but when you really look at it, it falls apart. Either everything added in patches is time gated(and paywalled!) or you need to think about what the buzzwords you're slinging actually mean because the definition you're using is too vague to mean anything.

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    World quests are the endgame for world content. Pathfinder is an endgame reward. There is no reliable way to measure how many world quests you've done outside reputation. I guess a pathfinder requirement could be a number of world quests(or emissaries) instead of reputation, but it ends up the same place. Also, CoA had an unreplaceable boost to player power tied to it(not the first or last time that's happened either), so doing its rep was important for other reasons as well.

    World content has always included reputations.
    World quest are not an endgame. They are there ONLY because devs failed to do enough story/chain quests to get you to exalted.

    Flying is not “hardcore” content, it has never been until in WoD when some ‘tard thought that locking it behind stupid and boring activities (rep grinding) was a cool idea.

    Reps are one of the worst mechanics the game has and always had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    It makes me chuckle that you chide people for being lazy at playing a game. The thing they want to do when they are done working, finished with their studies and doing chores, etc. When people have their down time and want to relax. And here you come along scolding them for wanting to be lazy while they are relaxing.

    RELAX HARDER PEOPLE!! ...ugh, so lazy.

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    Nope, that wasn't what he was saying. I saw nothing about "instant" there. Work hard, spend many hours working to progress and get BiS, then when you finally accomplish that, sit back, relish your accomplishment, and raid log. Versus logging in ad infinitum to do chores that will never enable you to reach the goal line.
    Not counting that having more spare time than others is not “skill” in the slightest. The 90% of so called “endgame” stuff need simply time to be accomplished.

    In normal times I play 8/10 hours a week when I’m lucky, not because I want but because I can’t play more because of, you know, “life happens”.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    World quest are not an endgame. They are there ONLY because devs failed to do enough story/chain quests to get you to exalted.

    Flying is not “hardcore” content, it has never been until in WoD when some ‘tard thought that locking it behind stupid and boring activities (rep grinding) was a cool idea.

    Reps are one of the worst mechanics the game has and always had.

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    Not counting that having more spare time than others is not “skill” in the slightest. The 90% of so called “endgame” stuff need simply time to be accomplished.

    In normal times I play 8/10 hours a week when I’m lucky, not because I want but because I can’t play more because of, you know, “life happens”.
    Can you do world quests from this expansion before level 120? Could you do world quests in legion before 110? If you can't do it before max level it's end game. That's what end game means. Heroic dungeons are end game too. It has nothing to do with difficulty. It's content you can only do at max level, the end of the game.

    There have been about 3 reps in the entirety of the game that don't require grinding to get exalted. That argument is complete nonsense. World quests are end game daily quests. Every expansion has end game daily quests.

    Also, to your other statement. Literally every game does nothing but offer something on which to spend your free time. MMORPGs have the highest requirement of your time to keep up by design. They're not meant to be completed in a week. They're meant to be completed playing a few hours a week over MONTHS. Skill is a product of practice and attention which are both TIME.

    The concept of attaining BIS and quitting is degenerate. If your only goal is to get items, you need to majorly reevaluate your decision to play in the first place. Play because you enjoy playing. If you play for any other reason you've fucked up, and if you're quitting after you've achieved an arbitrary goal you're not playing for fun.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Another spit in the face of the community
    You forgot the /s, sir.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Can you do world quests from this expansion before level 120? Could you do world quests in legion before 110? If you can't do it before max level it's end game. That's what end game means. Heroic dungeons are end game too. It has nothing to do with difficulty. It's content you can only do at max level, the end of the game.

    There have been about 3 reps in the entirety of the game that don't require grinding to get exalted. That argument is complete nonsense. World quests are end game daily quests. Every expansion has end game daily quests.

    Also, to your other statement. Literally every game does nothing but offer something on which to spend your free time. MMORPGs have the highest requirement of your time to keep up by design. They're not meant to be completed in a week. They're meant to be completed playing a few hours a week over MONTHS. Skill is a product of practice and attention which are both TIME.

    The concept of attaining BIS and quitting is degenerate. If your only goal is to get items, you need to majorly reevaluate your decision to play in the first place. Play because you enjoy playing. If you play for any other reason you've fucked up, and if you're quitting after you've achieved an arbitrary goal you're not playing for fun.
    Every single rep requires WQ grinding to get revered. Every single one. Far beyond what’s necessary to improve your char gear.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    And you can get BiS. That you lose sleep over infinitesimal shreds of DPS because getting the bonuses isn't guaranteed is on you, not the game's design because, like I said, all of that's pretty irrelevant anyway, as only a tiny, tiny sliver of the playerbase even remotely cares about raid logs. Hell, I'd bet most players don't even know what that is.
    I'm not sure what this part is about. I don't know who's losing sleep over BiS. Maybe someone out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The majority of players are going to be doing world quests, raids, mythic dungeons, island expeditions, visions of N'zoth, and the other things BFA has to offer as opposed to the WoD content of... sitting in your garrison, doing nothing. And it's quite obvious that no, the ability to secure BiS in WoD was not enough to retain the playerbase. Almost as if, like I said, very few players actualy care about some completely ulterior metric that rewards you with nothing, and certainly don't care about it enough to lose sleep about not getting titanforged perfect azerite-traited gear with sockets in every slot, the RNG-aspect of which you ascribe to being "ruinous game design."
    What I enjoyed was getting my characters to a point where they could do mid-level progression with my F&F guild, doing dungeons, and being able to PuG into raids when I felt like it. And if my guild wasn't doing a raid, I'd level an alt, and get them geared up. And if I didn't feel like leveling an alt, I'd look for some achievements to do, run some old content for transmog, or collect pets. I haven't been able to do that since WoD. And even in WoD it wasn't as often as previous expansions as most of my alts spent most of their time maintaining their garrisons & followers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    It's quite obvious Blizzard's game design sense differs from yours. Because it's obvious to me that things like warforged, extra gem sockets, etc are supposed to be bonuses. As in, "oh, cool, I got an extra perk on this armor! That's neat and makes me feel special." As opposed to your apparent mindset of "I'm being PUNISHED by NOT getting the perfect rolls on the loot I'm getting! THAT MAKES ME FEEL VICTIMIZED BY THEIR GAME DESIGN!"
    You have some guesses about what kind of player I am, but you missed the mark. I enjoy xforged gear, and the random bonus'. I've never cared a whole lot about BiS lists and infinitesimal gains in DPS. I can just sympathize with those who do, because I also don't like to play a game to do chores.

    In WoD the chore was my garrison and followers.
    In Legion the chore was my class hall & artifact weapon.
    In BfA the chore was my necklace & cloak.

    Never ending chores, and if I played an alt and stopped doing those chores on my main, it felt like my main was falling behind. My alts felt like they never caught up, most hardly even starting. I find that I'm logging in to do what I "have" to do, instead of doing what I "want" to do, which is what kept me playing WoW previously.

    I finally ask myself "what's the point of this", and starting in WoD (the first time since I started playing at the end of Vanilla), I would let my subscription lapse after I got pathfinder or some other goal, and find some other game to play.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

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