"No Master Loot" discussion

[Draylock]

So, as we know by now, ML isn't coming back for SL. Which is really unfortunate in my opinion. I raid in the same guild for the last 4 years now, and our progression seriously suffers from the inability to bolster our carries with the first few batches of that loot. Besides, that whole change didn't make sense in the first place. If you're in a PUG and you don't want any ninja loot shenanigans - that's a perfectly valid reason to avoid ML, but that was already in place in Legion... And I literally cannot see any other real, meaningful application of this change. Just to put a wrench in raiding? Top-end guilds won't care, they will just do same armor type runs anyway, like they always did. Casual raiders mostly won't care, they PUG a lot anyway, so they're used to it. This really only shoots in the leg of semi-hardcore raiding guilds, which doesn't really make sense.

Anyhow, if anyone does support the removal of ML, mind sharing why? Cause I've yet to meet a single person to present a sane argument for this change, that's not some socialist nonsense of "I want loot on my first raiding day"/"I deal 10% of my classes performance and expect to be rewarded for that".

[deenman]

Its part of activisions trend to prolong gametime,in sl they are going even worse by having less loot drop,they are simply shameless,i fully expect the next xpac to have gear in the shop once sub numbers start dipping below 100k,bfa was under 1m,when classic launched it was easily under 500k,pretty sure sl will be the last nail in the coffin with even more rng bs elements even more extreme than legion and bfa combined

[Marrilaife]

our progression seriously suffers from the inability to bolster our carries with the first few batches of that loot.

Well you named the reason why they removed it.

Because the game had enough "Billy die to every mechanic" players crying "Joe the carry" gets "special treatment" and "loot funneled to him" and "Billy was on the boss kill too, so he has the same right to the loot" (even though he was dead most of the time and contributed much much less), that Blizzard was sick and tired of the tickets and forum posts about it, they changed it so they don't have to deal with it. Remember Ion's "trials deserve loot too"?

Basically it punishes any semi-casual guild with big skill disparity between players, because you either have to kick / replace all the underperformers, or you're stuck with them not only underperforming but also taking away the loot from players who know how to use their characters and items.

As you said, this doesn't affect top guilds because they'll do a dozen split runs, buy boes from 10 servers and transfer them in, and also btw most important part - they aren't carrying any shitters, every player there has to be worth their spot.

The only thing guilds can do - and most of the affected won't, because of social reasons - is start cutting dead weights from the roster and have proper recruitment system so you don't struggle to fill up to 20 when 1 guy can't come because he has night shift at work or w/e else. As the latter is the primary reason for having sub par "backup raiders" slotted in when everyone knows they aren't kinda cutting it.

[deenman]

Well you named the reason why they removed it.

Because the game had enough "Billy die to every mechanic" players crying "Joe the carry" gets "special treatment" and "loot funneled to him" and "Billy was on the boss kill too, so he has the same right to the loot" (even though he was dead most of the time and contributed much much less), that Blizzard was sick and tired of the tickets and forum posts about it, they changed it so they don't have to deal with it. Remember Ion's "trials deserve loot too"?

Basically it punishes any semi-casual guild with big skill disparity between players, because you either have to kick / replace all the underperformers, or you're stuck with them not only underperforming but also taking away the loot from players who know how to use their characters and items.

As you said, this doesn't affect top guilds because they'll do a dozen split runs, buy boes from 10 servers and transfer them in, and also btw most important part - they aren't carrying any shitters, every player there has to be worth their spot.

The only thing guilds can do - and most of the affected won't, because of social reasons - is start cutting dead weights from the roster and have proper recruitment system so you don't struggle to fill up to 20 when 1 guy can't come because he has night shift at work or w/e else. As the latter is the primary reason for having sub par "backup raiders" slotted in when everyone knows they aren't kinda cutting it.

its always a joy when a 0.1% upgrade drops for someone and he ragequits guilds because he doesnt wanna give ti to the guy thats a 20%+ increase,PL is gr8 as a choice...not having it forced

[Zyky]

Its part of activisions trend to prolong gametime,in sl they are going even worse by having less loot drop,they are simply shameless,i fully expect the next xpac to have gear in the shop once sub numbers start dipping below 100k,bfa was under 1m,when classic launched it was easily under 500k,pretty sure sl will be the last nail in the coffin with even more rng bs elements even more extreme than legion and bfa combined

If you actually believe subs ever dropped under 1m at any point, you're truly ignorant lol.

[Draylock]

Well you named the reason why they removed it.

Because the game had enough "Billy die to every mechanic" players crying "Joe the carry" gets "special treatment" and "loot funneled to him" and "Billy was on the boss kill too, so he has the same right to the loot" (even though he was dead most of the time and contributed much much less), that Blizzard was sick and tired of the tickets and forum posts about it, they changed it so they don't have to deal with it. Remember Ion's "trials deserve loot too"?

Basically it punishes any semi-casual guild with big skill disparity between players, because you either have to kick / replace all the underperformers, or you're stuck with them not only underperforming but also taking away the loot from players who know how to use their characters and items.

As you said, this doesn't affect top guilds because they'll do a dozen split runs, buy boes from 10 servers and transfer them in, and also btw most important part - they aren't carrying any shitters, every player there has to be worth their spot.

The only thing guilds can do - and most of the affected won't, because of social reasons - is start cutting dead weights from the roster and have proper recruitment system so you don't struggle to fill up to 20 when 1 guy can't come because he has night shift at work or w/e else. As the latter is the primary reason for having sub par "backup raiders" slotted in when everyone knows they aren't kinda cutting it.

That's exactly the case for our guild. We aren't exactly "super good" (just did Hivemind as our 4th in Mythic today) and we cannot kick deadweights cause then we don't have the roster...

Also, did Ion actually say that? I wonder, does Blizzard pay their trials full salary immediately... And doesn't the bonus roll solve that problem already?

[deenman]

If you actually believe subs ever dropped under 1m at any point, you're truly ignorant lol.

there are 3rd party software that can fairly accurately prove this,also wod droped to 5m and that was early in 6.2 by the end it was proly far lower,and wile wod wasnt liked very much,bfa has been detested far far more,so its not to crazy to think its so low atm specialy with classic,granted $ its all the same so its not THAT big of a deal,and even wwhen SL fails as it inevitably will,we atleast have tbc for players and activisions pockets

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That's exactly the case for our guild. We aren't exactly "super good" (just did Hivemind as our 4th in Mythic today) and we cannot kick deadweights cause then we don't have the roster...

Also, did Ion actually say that? I wonder, does Blizzard pay their trials full salary immediately... And doesn't the bonus roll solve that problem already?

well blizz doesnt have to cater to their own empleyees lol,also we have all heard the news coming out about how blizz is one of the worst gaming companies to work for these days

[antelope591]

Not gonna lie I thought ML removal would be a disaster but it really hasn't affected the game THAT much. Of course the fact that raid loot has been basically shit for the whole expansion plays a factor too. It sucks for WF guilds but for the rest of us it hasn't really been a big deal.

[Zyky]

there are 3rd party software that can fairly accurately prove this,also wod droped to 5m and that was early in 6.2 by the end it was proly far lower,and wile wod wasnt liked very much,bfa has been detested far far more,so its not to crazy to think its so low atm specialy with classic,granted $ its all the same so its not THAT big of a deal,and even wwhen SL fails as it inevitably will,we atleast have tbc for players and activisions pockets

There is no software that can tell you accurate values of active subs. Feed that bullshit somewhere else, just looking at Eternal Palace(which is when Classic released) there were BARE MINIMUM(if you only make each heroic group 10 players and almost no heroic group is -only- 10 players) 15,649 GUILDS/156,490 PLAYERS killed the first boss on heroic. There's hundreds of thousands of players who don't raid at all. Again that's bare minimum numbers, if you look at a practical average that jumps over 300k players for first boss heroic. Again, hundreds of thousands of players don't raid heroic, they stick to normal, many don't raid at all and casually do PvP or M+ or whatever they find fun in the game. Add on the hundreds of thousands of subs that came from Classic resubs. Any "software" telling you there's under 500k is bullshit, just like your entire post.

[Stickiler]

Also, did Ion actually say that? I wonder, does Blizzard pay their trials full salary immediately... And doesn't the bonus roll solve that problem already?

Yes, Ion did say that. It seems kinda ridiculous to be like "you're going to come and help us kill this boss, but you'll never get loot until we deem it so". PL has streamlined every raid I've participated in since ML was removed, we're clearing more, and faster, cos we're not messing around with loot distribution guild bs, we just grab the loot and keep moving.

Of course they pay their employees(regardless of tenure) their full salary, what kind of question is that?

[Aresk]

Because loot shouldn't go to the people whining the loudest. If someone believes they're the best in the raid and that they deserve the dropped trinket despite everyone wanting that same trinket, they can't get it unless the person who won it is willing to trade it. Raid leaders can't be blamed for this anymore; the whining player can blame Blizzard, but Blizzard can take it a lot easier.

[Draylock]

Yes, Ion did say that. It seems kinda ridiculous to be like "you're going to come and help us kill this boss, but you'll never get loot until we deem it so". PL has streamlined every raid I've participated in since ML was removed, we're clearing more, and faster, cos we're not messing around with loot distribution guild bs, we just grab the loot and keep moving.

Of course they pay their employees(regardless of tenure) their full salary, what kind of question is that?

I've always seen it as "we're taking you with us to kill the bosses you couldn't before, and if you can compete and outperform others you'll get the loot" rather than your approach.

In my country, it's normal to receive about 50-80% of your normal salary during the trial period (usually 1-2 months), cause let's be honest, nobody performs 100% while learning the specifics of a new job. Hence the question.

[deenman]

There is no software that can tell you accurate values of active subs. Feed that bullshit somewhere else, just looking at Eternal Palace(which is when Classic released) there were BARE MINIMUM(if you only make each heroic group 10 players and almost no heroic group is -only- 10 players) 15,649 GUILDS/156,490 PLAYERS killed the first boss on heroic. There's hundreds of thousands of players who don't raid at all. Again that's bare minimum numbers, if you look at a practical average that jumps over 300k players for first boss heroic. Again, hundreds of thousands of players don't raid heroic, they stick to normal, many don't raid at all and casually do PvP or M+ or whatever they find fun in the game. Add on the hundreds of thousands of subs that came from Classic resubs. Any "software" telling you there's under 500k is bullshit, just like your entire post.

thats a lot of assumptions you are making there lol,pvp has been dead for years,most people pve,and first boss of hc is easily pugable,and yes,people come back when a raid comes out,i know plenty of players who do just that

[Draylock]

Because loot shouldn't go to the people whining the loudest. If someone believes they're the best in the raid and that they deserve the dropped trinket despite everyone wanting that same trinket, they can't get it unless the person who won it is willing to trade it. Raid leaders can't be blamed for this anymore; the whining player can blame Blizzard, but Blizzard can take it a lot easier.

But it isn't about "whining the loudest", it's about deserving it. Player A came prepared, they knew the tactics, they learned their class, they did an amazing job on their tanking/dps/hps. Player B just kinda eyeballed it, failed, and spent most of the fight watching YouTube while being dead. How is it fair in any way for them to have equal chances for loot?

[BeepBoo]

Because loot shouldn't go to the people whining the loudest. If someone believes they're the best in the raid and that they deserve the dropped trinket despite everyone wanting that same trinket, they can't get it unless the person who won it is willing to trade it. Raid leaders can't be blamed for this anymore; the whining player can blame Blizzard, but Blizzard can take it a lot easier.

Except with their "you can't trade higher ilvl gear" now you have that scrub who got it getting it at 400. Then at 405. Then at 420.... etc, all the while you have that unlucky person who hasn't gotten a single one yet.

Hell, even if the trinket was garbage for, say, a warrior, but was top tier in the raid for a DK, they STILL couldn't trade it because of ilvl. They can't decide if they want to give something up or not. It's wasted loot.

All it did was make it so groups advance slower and there's more opportunity for disparity within the same guild where someone who is lucky has 5-10 avg ilvl advantage over the poor unlucky fuck, even if the lucky person is your bottom contributor and your unlucky person is your top. Feelsbadman.

[Steelcryo]

there are 3rd party software that can fairly accurately prove this,also wod droped to 5m and that was early in 6.2 by the end it was proly far lower,and wile wod wasnt liked very much,bfa has been detested far far more,so its not to crazy to think its so low atm specialy with classic,granted $ its all the same so its not THAT big of a deal,and even wwhen SL fails as it inevitably will,we atleast have tbc for players and activisions pockets

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well blizz doesnt have to cater to their own empleyees lol,also we have all heard the news coming out about how blizz is one of the worst gaming companies to work for these days

Oh look, someone who's just here to shit on Blizzard. If you dislike them so much, why play their games/hang around a forum about one of their games? SL is barely in alpha and you're already saying it'll inevitably fail, despite a lot of the Alpha testers saying what's in already is actually really fun. Most people who've played it are agreeing Torghast has potential to be one of the best features they've ever made. So not sure where you've formed that opinion from, unless it's bias (which is obviously is).

As for the sub numbers, I highly doubt their under 500k, no 3rd party software can accurately predict sub numbers. The only people who know are Blizzard. Considering the popularity of Classic and the number of people completing raids, it's a fairly safe guess that the number is actually over 1 million still, especially now of all times when everyone is stuck at home, I expect their sub numbers have jumped quite a lot. I know some of my friends have hopped back on after months of not being subbed.

Finally, take a look at Twitter, a lot of their employees are on their and talking about how much they love Blizzard, especially with how much they've been supported to set up working from home. Some of the team managers have even been posting how they're dealing with working from home and the strategies they've been employing, a lot of which are actually really good. (Yes I was bored one evening and saw a post and went down a rabbit hole) But yeah, seems people quite enjoy working for Blizz, so not sure where you're getting it's one of the worst companies to work for from.

In other words, stop posting bullshit without any facts backing it up, taking your Blizz hate circle jerk else where. No they're not a perfect company, they've made plenty of mistakes, some they definitely deserve being called out for, but god damn. We live in a world where just making things up is as good as facts these days and holy hell it's boring to deal with.


On topic of the actual thread: Honestly, I can understand it from Blizzards point of view, the number of tickets and disputes caused my ML must have taken a lot of support time for stupid reasons. Easier to just can the mechanic than keep it in. I can see a few cases where it'd suck, but mostly I agree with their reasoning, if someone takes part in a raid, they deserve a chance at loot and keeping that loot. Even if they failed every mechanic, if they stuck with it, they deserve anything that drops for them. If you don't want them getting loot, kick them from the raid and bring someone else. If you don't have anyone else, then they're filling a gap you need filled and providing a service, so again deserve loot. I actually thought I'd dislike it a lot more than I do when they first announced it being removed, but I actually prefer it, there's far less drama.

[Draylock]

On topic of the actual thread: Honestly, I can understand it from Blizzards point of view, the number of tickets and disputes caused my ML must have taken a lot of support time for stupid reasons. Easier to just can the mechanic than keep it in. I can see a few cases where it'd suck, but mostly I agree with their reasoning, if someone takes part in a raid, they deserve a chance at loot and keeping that loot. Even if they failed every mechanic, if they stuck with it, they deserve anything that drops for them. If you don't want them getting loot, kick them from the raid and bring someone else. If you don't have anyone else, then they're filling a gap you need filled and providing a service, so again deserve loot. I actually thought I'd dislike it a lot more than I do when they first announced it being removed, but I actually prefer it, there's far less drama.

I can partially agree with that sentiment. However, it's not like trials/bad players are completely barred from loot in this system. If your loot council actually knows what they're doing, those players will still receive loot. Just not the best items that would be a bigger upgrade (investment) for better players. Besides, they already have their bonus loot rolls, that is completely theirs.

[Sarkli83]

I may not be perfect but personal loot cuts down on shart tons of unnecessary drama so it's good in my book.

[Zyky]

thats a lot of assumptions you are making there lol,pvp has been dead for years,most people pve,and first boss of hc is easily pugable,and yes,people come back when a raid comes out,i know plenty of players who do just that

There are no assumptions, the data is there on various websites. You're the one making assumptions saying "PvP has been dead for years" and "most people PvE".

Also I got another reality check for you, the value I gave you is JUST FROM GUILDS WHO HAVE KILLED THE FIRST BOSS, not including pug groups.

The reality is, most people who play this game are not Heroic/Mythic Raiders, we know this as a fact. You just want to spew nonsense that you have zero evidence to back up. Saying "third party software backs this up", but there is NO SOFTWARE that can tell you how many active subs WoW has.

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But it isn't about "whining the loudest", it's about deserving it. Player A came prepared, they knew the tactics, they learned their class, they did an amazing job on their tanking/dps/hps. Player B just kinda eyeballed it, failed, and spent most of the fight watching YouTube while being dead. How is it fair in any way for them to have equal chances for loot?

Then you kick him and recruit a new raider. You have options, if you're not leadership then leave the guild if you're unhappy with the environment. You still have options, you just choose to whine instead of doing what you can.

[RoKPaNda]

I honestly haven't missed it one bit.